And you know this how? Show me the reference where this is posted and validated as Fallout lore.. I think this is a big assumption your making here.

To a soldier fighting in the army, he/she has no notion of what evil the leader might be doing - they are fighting for their homeland, just like most soldier would. Sure President Eden has sinister plans, but who says the rest of the Enclave also has such designs?

Indeed, any general needs to make the grunts believe that they fight for something that is Right. At least if he or she wants to command a large army. The grunts may actually believe that their atrocities serve a greater good. They may not even know what nasty things their leaders are doing.

Yes they are and they all deserve this :gun: and this :flamethrower:

Is a turd bad smelling?

The common Enclave soldier's choice epithet for non-Enclave people: "Mutie".

Lets assume that the Enclave happen by some children. The Enclave do what they do to any Waster, destroy them, with flashy guns. Wasters are Technically Americans too, not just the 'True, proud and honorable Enclave.' The Enclave is just one big bully, really. "Do what I say, or I'll pound you one" is their motto, except, they'll pound you one anyways, because you're a "Threat." If you're not Enclave, you aren't worthy to live. That's how it is, no matter how you try to justify anything, that's how it is.

The Enclave aren't helping, just ruining the Wastes more. You can call Lyons' branch "Girl Scouts" and "Shiny Knight" because they like to help people, not kill them to preserve their own ideals of "Old America." If the Enclave really want to help, put down the guns, give your hands, and help the world by giving out pure water, (Key word here is pure), Cure the peoples rads, (if any, The Enclave always just assume you do, if it works for Stiggs, it can work for anyone.), and try to build America up from the ground, the way the Founding Fathers did, piece by piece, peace by peace.

Indeed - and the American army has chosen nick-names for every single ethnic people they encounter - usually a single word, usually sarcastic (at best) - that doesn't mean they wish everyone of that ethinc group to die does it? The Brotherhood Outcasts have even worse things to say, but they aren't spraying everyone with gunfire either.

Actually... they would confiscate any "weapons" that the children may have. If the items were truly weapons, then the kids would be without defense against wasteland predators. If any of them were toddlers, the inevitable bombardment of toddler logic ("Why?") would ensue, and then the killing would start, since questioning the motives of the US Government is bad and undermines the strength of America.

Also, as far as the common soldier being unaware of the genocide... what do you think all the "genetic compliance" checkpoints throughout the wasteland are?

If the Enclave want a great America, they should have Freedom for all, not just the people who pass their High School bathroom stall hot list test.

According to them, Wastelanders are decidedly Unamerican, and therefore should be destroyed.


The argument devolves to one of motivation, and the extent of which a government will go to reach their goals. If the Enclave truly believe in the future they support...Mom and God and Apple Pie..., then they would feel morally obligated to use whatever force necessary to pursue that vision. If some folks have to die in the process, so what.

The Supermutants, raiders, and mutated beasts have clearly overrun the Wastelands. Nothing can change until security is established. The BoS obviously can't handle it. Perhaps the Enclave can. So far, so good. As far as the racial thing...the mutant thing, well, history clearly shows how that can be an epic failure, although such a thing can rally many to the cause. If I were a Wastelander, I think I would be greatly interested in having every mutie killed.

Regardless, The enclave COULD re-establish some sort of unified society by regaining order and repairing the purifier, and they could do it long before the BoS could have done. To that extent, assuming that they believe their propaganda, it would be difficult to see their vision as evil, and if the ends justify the means, so be it.

On the other hand, lets look at Bos for a moment. They can, and will use the purifier to bring the most basic requirement to the Wastes. There would still be a security problem, but that may EVENTUALLY be resolved as settlements become more capable of supporting themselves. Could take years...decades.., and in that time, many more will suffer. The BoS, of course, are a bit more interested in civil rights, which is both their strength and their weakness.

So, which is better: A concentrated and coordinated assault against elements that, due to their nature, create a situation in which society cannot advance, and in return, an authoritarian central government; or a loose affiliation of weak entities (BoS and local governments) which maintain a higher degreee of individual rights at the expense of dragging the war against antisocial elements for years, if not decades?

It's an age old political struggle...one which drives Western politics to this day. Here in the US, we have a great example of it, with our current and previous presidents, with contrasting approaches to solving problems.

EDIT:

There are tow factions in the Enclave. The Eden faction seems the more rational...the more idealistic. The Autumn faction seems the more pragmatic, and potentially more evil. I get the impression that if Eden stays in charge, everything might turn out well in the end. With Autumn, probably not. We see this in revolutions...especially the Russian revolution, where the pragmatists tend to purge the idealists.

To above poster^ Tell me one thing are you republican or democrat? This may help answer a lot of questions I might have as to what you have written. Politics probably isnt suppose to be discussed but you did bring it up.

I highly doubt that is any of your business, and is irrelevant to this discussion.

quote-So, which is better: A concentrated and coordinated assault against elements that, due to their nature, create a situation in which society cannot advance, and in return, an authoritarian central government; or a loose affiliation of weak entities (BoS and local governments) which maintain a higher degreee of individual rights at the expense of dragging the war against antisocial elements for years, if not decades?

It's an age old political struggle...one which drives Western politics to this day. Here in the US, we have a great example of it, with our current and previous presidents, with contrasting approaches to solving problems.


If your going to burn enough gray matter to make a blanket statement about the workings of western politics and how two us presidents solve problems at least elaborate.

Its very likely that most republicans & conservatives are pro enclave lol.

The Enclave doesn't kill them for being "unamerican". They kill them because they are no longer humans. Their DNA has changed.
Some chosen lines from Fallout 2's dialogue with President Richardson of the Enclave..

Richardson: "We try to keep ourselves safe and secure from radiation. That's what separates humans - like me - from mutants like you."
Chosen One: "Why do you keep calling me a mutant?"
Richardson: "Because you are. Your tribe's DNA has changed since your ancestor left the vault. Unavoidable. All that background radiation you've been exposed to."
...
Richardson: "Very moving. But the radical changes your villagers and other mutants show is a far cry from the gradual changes of natural evolution."
Chosen One: "Maybe we're changing into a better version of the human race. Did you ever think of that?"
Richardson: "Very possible, indeed. In which case, our mission is even more vital to the survival of the human race."
...
Richardson: "Not at all. Look to the future. Sure muties and men could get along for a while, but before you know it, the numeric pressure of your kind would tell. No, a line must be drawn in the sand - the buck stops here."
...
Richardson: "The only way for true humans, and democracy, to be safe is to cleanse the mutants from the globe. We humans will take back that which is rightfully ours."

So even someone with the smallest mutation isn't worth anything?

They didn't say that anywhere. As Richardson said above, the locals' "evolution" is a far cry from natural. Their DNA is enough different to be called a new species, even though they don't look or behave like one.
And if I recall correctly, they used FEV to increase the intellectual capacities of Vice President Bird, thus a small dose of it doesn't make you a mutant.

That may be, but if they're not crazed Super Mutants or Ghouls, I don't see the threat. Is Radiation contagious, like the common cold?

ahh yes.. save for all of the people that could have populated vaults to full term as anticipated and would have been "pure" americans.. instead some were given radiation, some FEV, some put in a no win situation and so on.. if its a numbers game, then the enclave made a huge cut to the numbers that they claim they want to save. I know some people say that pre-war enclave is different than post war enclave, but i don't really agree that it makes them any less nefarious.

at any rate. does killing someone who has different DNA make them any less evil?
any semblance of "the good ole US" is gone. there is no possible way to perserve "americana" at the point in fthe fallout universe where pres richardson said that. despite his motivations, he is still killing people (even if mutated) that dont necessarily pose a threat to human kind.
I dont want to get this closed, so i will only say this briefly, with a rhetorical question..
any time one ethnicity breeds with another the opffspring have a slightly different DNA makeup. would it be OK to kill people off because of this?

Of course it's not contagious, but there has been plenty of it - and airborne FEV - that people and most especially animals mutated. Also, most plants appear to have died out due to radiation. There are only a few green things in the whole series.


There were enough control vaults to maintain human race. 122 vaults total, and I recall some 20 were control vaults. Vault 13 for one, even its residents were used to human testing, the Enclave made sure none of them mutated due to the tests.
Post-War America is a lot more "evil" than pre-war one, which was a strict society due to a long war and lack of resources, but post-war America has had to endure even more.

Woe be to my microphthalmia. I better watch out for the genetic screening.

EDIT: Way to start out a new page, Kikai.

Of course.

The point is that they don't fit the world view of the Enclave.

even if some of the vaults were control vaults (which they really werent froma scientific standpoint as the ability to open the door before the pre-assigned time was there) it doesnt speak to the vast numbers of people that were pure that died or purposely had their DNA mutated... its still less people any way you slice it. less people to combat against the unpure in the numbers game of procreation. kinda shoots his argument in the foot.
also, i would argue that less of a gene pool to pick from as a result of thinning the numbers through the "experiments" could result in imbreeding , which will also effect DNA negatively.

Generally speaking, because political discussion violates TOS here, one of the defining differences between the American parties is just how much government can, or should, be used to solve socital problems. One party works towards a highly limited government, with the bulk of power resting in the hands of individuals. The other party suggests that there are problems that only government can solve, and therefore, the People might ahve to defer to the government in some situations.

This is not a "blanket statement" by the way.

Now, apply the above to the Enclave situation. It's a theme in FO3, and we also see it in The Pitt.

Ok I got you there all that other stuff you wrote threw me off, but yah one party is supposdly less gov ones more. Since we are at war and trieng to build 2 goverments in two different nations plus fixing problems at home thats a lot going on.

Your talk of how the enclave will run things in a concentrated and coordinated manner and the BoS would be loose and weak is a way of side stepping the principle of good and evil. Many people here will try hide very simple basic morals and principles while they discuss how the means justify the end.