Why my dear fellow Americans, what ever do you mean? Us, the Enclave, evil?? Now now, where is your patriotism? We don't want to control the populations and win your trust just to make executing all of you easier. Poppycock. We're here to make everything just swell again! See, we have a bottle of water for you! Don't worry about why it's smeared with blood and looks like it was pried from someones dead hand; nevermind you such trivial details.

Now ignore the incessant beeping of this Radiation Level Detecting Meter and go relax in the back of that truck over there with the burnt bodies in it. :rolleyes:

I am mixed on this one. On the one hand most of their intentions seem admirable, rebuilding America cannot be viewed as Evil. However some of their methods, and most especially the methods of President Eden, are truly evil and I can't find any other word for it. The Nazi's chose a similar "final solution" to those he deemed genetically un-worthy, and living in our time its very hard to see that in anything but the purest-Evil terms as a result. The enclave soldiers also don't hesitate to murder anyone that crosses their paths, and those methods are extremely harsh for a force trying to rebuild a country.

It reminds me of the lessons we are learning in Iraq and Afghanistan in the real world - that the people of a land have to Choose peace, it cannot be imposed upon them without enslavement and murder. But I can't imagine the average Enclave soldier dreaming of genocide, but rather as honorable soldiers trying to do their best to rebuild America. It's always the leaders screwing these things up, here and for the Enclave in Fallout3. If I were a wastelander, I would doubtless Hate and Fear the enclave as despots and killers, but I don't know that I would think of them as evil...

Miax

For God's sake, am I the only one who gets it? "Rebuilding America" is just a huge lie, their Trojan Horse. Rebuilding America means killing everyone who isn't enclave so that the enclave's soldiers can re-populate the country with pure, clean, un-mutated children. Most of the soldiers know that, they aren't all stupid, so they're evil too. The Enclave just promises the world so they can win the trust of people. Less resistance, less challenge.

Your Dad abandoned the purifier which was his lifelong goal, to make sure you had a somewhere to live out a safe and full life.

Why does everyone assume rebuilding America is a good thing?


EDIT: some keys on my keyboad dont respon sometimes -.-

Do you have evidence on this?

To me, it's pretty clear the average soldier doesn't have a clue about what's really going on. Hell, they don't even know Eden is . If they wanted to kill everyone out there, the Colonel wouldn't oppose Eden's plan, because it's really quite good when your goal is to wipe out anything that moves in the CW.

Can't some of you see that the Enclave are a clear reference to the Nazis? From their doctrine to their uniforms to almost everything. So, yes they are evil unless of course some of you think that the Nazis were not evil either.

I agree with you there, the enclave are just like the Nazis with their human experiments.

Eh, whatever. If you don't see the little subtleties that paint them gray instead of black then you don't.

But here is something for you to think about: What is the Brotherhood of Steel doing with Project Purity? Maybe they claimed it for themselves and are now distributing Aqua Pura in bottles with HUGE BOS logos on them? Maybe this is an act of propaganda wich will cause the people of the Wasteland to see them as saviours and flock to them for guidance, and a plan for the future?

Sounds familiar?

Like I mentioned earlier... The BoS are quite evil, if not just as evil as the Enclave, in their own stupid way. They aren't a part of their Mother Faction for a reason! And the Outcasts split from them for a reason people!

I kind of agree, but I wouldn't consider them "Evil" either. Just an other gray faction. Them being a lighter shade of gray than the Enclave.

I think you have a point there. Like the Enclave are reminiscent of the Nazis, the BoS are also reminiscent of the Americans and I think that very few people, if any, are pleased with the current state of economic globalization which is led by the USA. Having said that, I still think that the American government was the lesser evil if we compare it to the Nazis.

The Enclave differ from the Nazis on one cruical point:

Nazis: The World was fine when they tried to change it.

Enclave: The World is already 99.7% destroyed.

See the difference? If the Enclave killed off 90% of the World you'd only be killing thousands, maybe tens of thousands at most. :shrug: Rebuilding the World from the bottom up in a new fashion sounds quite intelligent to me in a Post-Apocalyptic sense.

I actually wanted to allude that the BOS are doing the EXACT same thing that Col. Autumn wanted to do

Nazis and The Enclave bear no resemblance to each other.

Nazis: Destroy sub-humans so superhumans can have more free space.
Subhumans: (East) Slavic peoples, Jews, and anyone who happens to be on the way to Urals.
Superhumans: "Aryans"
Acceptable humans: Finno-Ugrics, Romance peoples and Anglo-Saxons

The Enclave: Destroy mutants so humans can reclaim the globe
Mutants: Any and all who does not have human DNA, but once had.
Humans: Well, humans. Homo sapiens.

Besides their policy on destroying others, they have absolutely nothing in common. Their political structures are different, ethnic bases are different, armed forces are different and most of all, motives are different.

Oh and don't bring real-life politics into discussions about a video game. It gets these threads locked (although I can't say it was a bad thing).

Since they show up red on my HUD and attack me w/o provocation (and I am saintly), then they must be evil, or at least as evil as wild wasteland dogs which do the same thing.

I would say yes, there methods really make me question would a enclave built America really be worth living in? dont get me wrong I know the wasteland as it is can be no paradise but still.... atleast the majority can enjoy true freedom *awaits enclave propaganda reply*.....

With armor that looks like that, how could they not be evil?

Other than that:
Genetic purity
Genetic Clensing
Modified F.E.V.

Umm..

Actually, Kikai just hates bigotry.

I am sorry if I have brought real life politics into discussions about a video game. I have a PhD in political economy and this is perhaps why I can see the similarities between real life and a video game that others cannot. What I could not see is that my comments could possibly offend in real life some Enclave fans in a video game.

I think what he was getting at is that real life politics isn't allowed on the forums and will lead to the mods closing the thread, your PhD not withstanding.

The Enclave definately have a lot in common with the Nazis, who "only" wanted to rebuild and strenghen Germany ... and relocate the people deemed un-German, such as Jews, homo sixuals, Socialists, etc. Later, during WWII, it became to expensive to forcibly relocate these human beings, so the Nazis decided to murder them.


I suppose it depends on which America one would want to rebuild? The one that caused a nuclear war? The semi-fascist utopia of the Enclave? Or an ordered government learning the lessons of the previous 4 centuries? The last one does not sound so bad. The middle one may be preferable to the people in the Wasteland.


I suppose you never heard of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression? Due to having to pay war reparations, the Germans were particularly bad hit, with an unemployment rate of 30% in 1932 and an insane inflation. The Germans at the time definately did not consider the world to be "fine" - if they did, 1/3 of them would not have voted for Hitler.


Unless I missed something, they also considered slightly irradiated humans to be mutants, who had to be exterminated to revive the "pure" human strain. Disturbingly similar to Nazi claims that "non-aryans" should be deported (and later exterminated) as not to "pollute" the "aryan" race. Incidently, both ignore science fact. The Nazi dream of an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan race that never existed. Similarly, "pure-strain" humans is a contradiction of terms. All humans have small mutations from background radiation. It is how the species evolve.

To get back to the original question on the evil of the Enclave, my opinion is that I do not believe in the concepts of Good and Evil. They are only in the eye of the beholder. Would I fight them? Yes, mass murder is not an option for me.

I'm just walking along, minding my own business; listening to Three Dog calling me the 'Messiah' of the Wasteland for my good deeds to humanity. I see some structure up ahead and wonder if I can assist in some manner. Suddenly I hear shouting and plasmaguns firing at me from all directions. In self defense I decimate the Enclave outpost who didn't even bother to find out who I was before training their guns on me.

I'm walking along with dad who has this dream of free clean water for all. The rest can't be posted here because of the gigantic spoilers; but rest assured that the Enclave also has something to say about the matter.

To me, that's just evil.


Greetz,

Milt

ps. I'd like to ask you guys to keep things related to the Fallout 3 game. I see way too many people making comparisons with Nazi's and personal opinions on present day America etc.

I think the Enclave attack you because they know you are related to James and assume you share his "enthusiasm" in opposing them. If you listen to what the soldiers say while attacking you, they sometimes say something like: "Positive ID, on the target".

They know who you are.

No, they shoot everyone on sight as they do not consider the people of the Wasteland to be human, even if they look no less human than they do. And to take the discussion further away from real life politics as it was kindly requested by the moderator I think there should be one more option in the poll. To borrow from the great German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche this option should be: "Beyond Good and Evil".

They shoot everyone on sight because when it comes down to game mechaics, they're just an other group of "monsters", like super mutants, raiders, deathclaws, etc.

In-game info however suggests otherwise.