So with a thread on FEV branching off into the Enclave and their structure of Government, I figured may as well start a thread to discuss ideas that have started recently.

Note: Opinions are opinions. With rough estimate of 180 years+ combined from 2077 to FONV, much of Enclave history is unknown and speculation. While I stick to as much canon as possible, debates on Enclave include a lot of speculation. So, I will say right now, any speculation can be wrong. For all I know the Enclave is a skeleton at a ham radio.

Some recent topics:

FEV: Would surving Enclave after FO3 continue to experiment with FEV, and for what purposes.

Democracy vs. Dictatorship: In FO2 Enclave appears as holding on to Democracy, with a Congress and elections. Did this continue or are they now a Martial-law Dictatorship.

Was the Enclave the legitimate US Govt or a shadow government?

Other bases vs No other bases

Activity vs No Activity: ie did the Enclave do anything in the time from 2077 to FO2?

What is in Chicago?

Does the Enclave have the ability to make a comeback and play a role in the future, not necessarily as the "enemy"?

Enclave ideology: With the attitude of Autumn, do you think the Enclave would adapt to survive?

Add anything you want, theories, ideas, etc.

I would think can disable a comp and setup other comp to run essential aspects of RR.

In a long ago debate it was said there were 300 Enclave soldiers in FO3.

If you add up the babies, kids, teenagers, middle aged, and elderly, I estimated about 1000 Enclave.

Makes sense...how else would they research and produce hellfire armor etc with only 300 people, subtracting the soldiers, who are obviously not scientists.

You don't see everyone in a game. The population of New Reno is 7000 or so. Do you see them all in FO2?

To kick off a Govt vs Shadow Govt debate:

Personally, I believe the Enclave is a shadow government. A major reason is because if they were the legit Govt, why no open recovery effort about 10 years after the bombs when according to some lore is about the time the fallout and radiation levels dropped to non-lethal?

You would think a legit govt would want to return to the mainland ASAP to let survivors know we are here to help, and to re-establish contact with any survivors from the military, federal, and state governments.

But, they don't, which tells me their agenda is their own, and not for the USA.

Regardless what their plan was, I feel it was hostile, which is why they remained in the shadows. They were looking to sieze power, not restore it.

Likewise, I think the Enclave did do things, but it was covert.

Edit: Nevermind. I don't really want to get into another debate.

If you have an idea, post it. Frankly between games, history and speculation is the only thing that keeps me interested in the franchise and I have picked up many theories from these threads. It isn't an argument or a game of eight and wrong I win, but a sharing of ideas.

Makes sense...how else would they research and produce hellfire armor etc with only 300 people, subtracting the soldiers, who are obviously not scientists.

You don't see everyone in a game. The population of New Reno is 7000 or so. Do you see them all in FO2?

That's an insanely high figure; how many elderly were at Navarro? It's only been 30 years man. Maybe they have a very small scientific staff?


Seize power? Of what? It's a very poor motivation, all these powerful people and there plan was to squat on an Oil Rig for decades so they had "power". The U.S. Government doesn't work that way, the President or his next successor has power. Eden tells us that sometime after the war the CoG bunkers that he is connected to retreat to the West Coast:

"In the decades following the war, I watched as the remnants of the Government retreated to the West Coast."

The Enclave was clearly built as a facility for the President, and the U.S. Government, operate on after the war; it was connected to Raven Rock, where Eden says he was built to relay communications to facilities around the country. You were pretty adamant that we know nothing of that 150 year gap but now your saying that they did absolutely nothing too just to justify your opinion that it's a "shadow government" even though by taking legitimate authority and re-couping people from all over the United States it is no longer that?

I will never understand that as a motivation, sure the nuclear war destroys our homes, property, kills most of our families, renders our wealth pointless and forces us to live in a single bunk on an Oil Rig in the middle of the ocean - which was clearly not designed with comfort in mind, like real CoG facilities - but we'll have power! Lots and lots of delicious authority over ourselves! Because you said that they didn't try to contact any other surviving departments of the government.

Seriously man, maybe there was an effort but the more realistic approach to the West Coast means that there's no trace of it; unlike Fallout 3 there isn't a constant supply of electricity everywhere for people to make computer logs. We never see the remains of any food-lines, or places were riots happened in Fallout 3 but we know from lore that they were supposed to be going on everywhere. The shadow government idea is stupid. Why wait "decades" to bring together the government remnants, maybe - as you so often point out - something we don't know's been happening across the United States.

How does one even have a shadow government anyway? People don't just go where-ever they like when the bombs drop you know, Congress, DoD, the President and such all have their own specific locations to go to when the bombs fall. I'm just trying to understand this k? So the bombs are coming and the Enclave retreats to their Oil Rig and then what? How do they get "power", is the President there as he's the one with the authority to authorise some Rex84-esque contingency plan that would allow him to make a new Congress to pass whatever legislation the Enclave need. Are a few actual members of Congress there? What do they do considering the rest of Congress is likely in a vault somewhere waiting for orders from the President. Before the war did they all meet up in secret and discuss what they were going to do to do... whatever it is a Shadow Government wants to do; have someone as President? Why? What do they want to do with the United States? Corrupt it for their own gain, I guess that's why the Oil Rig was such a good plan then. Where there Poseidon Energy executives there? What did they do considering they no longer have a company; the only reason to have loyal execs is so you can get the company to do what you want, there is no longer a company.


How do you know they didn't do that already? We know that the national recovery effort was underway from Germantown, only it failed there after a few weeks. So they wanted power for what? Not to exercise it with those in Raven Rock, Mt Weather and the other CoG facilities?

It's a power for it's own sake, evil for it's own sake motivation which is just crap and ultimately seeing as how the rest of the government did indeed come together afterwards the Enclave is no longer just the Enclave - if you read Enclave as your "shadow government" Enclave - as many more people will have joined, presumably because the Enclave has the power to do that, thus they aren't the shadow government anymore are they just the actual one.

EDIT: And did they name themselves after the rig or the rig after themselves?

EDIT: My idea, Control Station: ENCLAVE was a legitimate part of the Government Continuity of Operations Plan. After the recovery effort failed the government got overly paranoid and concerned with it's immediate continuation, re-calling everyone it could get in contact with to come to the Oil Rig and wait out the desent into barbarism until perhaps a better time... accept the Enclave degenerated into a pretty xenophobic, isolated and reactionary society which kept delaying their return until people like Richardson became the norm and nothing. Nothing is too high for the survival of the government being their mantra, perhaps motivated in part by their own role as those being the last ones continuing the government.

As far as I am concerned it fits the facts and makes sense as a motivation and cause for the current Enclave doctrine.

Because contact with the mainland was severed, and it wasn't because the Enclave intended it that way. They simply were unable to direct any sort of concise rescue effort because no one was listening to the orders anyway. Especially by the time 10 years came around.

The German-town entry logs:


“Our unit has been assigned to a National Guard detachment. They drove all night from Pennsylvania. We're doing our best to keep the survivors placated while these boys get their strength up. The looting gets worse every day, and it's a small town. There can't be much left, and there's already been one scuffle at the canteen. These Guardsmen arrived just in time, I fear.”


"Dolores and Rebecca deserted in the night. They had the goodness not to rob us blind on her way out: I had trusted Becky with the keys to the canteen and the artesian well we locked up on Day One."

"These days I feel like more of a preacher than a nurse. We've lost hope that the reservists will be back. I can only hope they died with some scrap of honor and didn't abandon us."

As you can see, there were directed efforts by National Guardsmen and relief workers to attempt to do what they could for suriviors, however these individuals began to slowly die out or desert. Do you notice all the National Guard checkpoints and ghouls in military uniforms? Those are the remnants of the government rescue effort.

The situation on the mainland simply became hopeless. Besides what is a group of higher-up politicians and a small security force going to do anyway? The mainland was lost in the chaos and darkness of the radiation. They couldn't do anything and decided to wait it out and allow for the continent to become re-inhabitable again.

Put yourself in their shoes. Your family is on the rig, and you are safe and comfortable for the moment. Outside their is looters, gangs, killers, mutants, deranged creatures, and radiation. Are you going to lead your small band in an attempt to help people that will likely kill you as soon as look at you?

Hell no. I'd stay put. No question about it.

Besides, your point is flawed anyway. If the Enclave isn't the legitimate government, than what was the legitimate government doing? If they were some sort of spec-ops group, where was the "real" government? Why wasn't it helping?

You are missing my point.

First though, the USA is not immune to a coup. In fact, in US history, certain times the govt has used that very "threat" to give people the fear of Communism, Socialism, Nazis, etc?

Some even theorize the assassination of JFK was a coup.

But anyway, a disaster is a perfect time for a coup to take place. A nuclear war provides just the chaos, death and destruction and confusion that would give a group the chance at taking over the USA. That is what they want, to become the US government.

I don't remember any mention of national recovery act in the nurses log at Germantown, only talk about some national guard showing up, who could, and probably were as clueless as anyone. Even actual army, the guys who would become BoS, hears nothing from the government.

Also remember, the USA in FO world is broken up into 13 commonwealths, so the political makeup is vastly different than the real world.

So, you have this group, the Enclave, which the people don't know about. The president is a member, as are some congressmen, senators, probably some state and local government officials who are powerful/rich, and people from the private sector who are powerful and rich.

Poseidon is one of these companies that is heavily influenced so to speak by the Enclave. So yes, I believe the Oil Rig was constructed as part of the Enclave plan. With the threat of Nuclear War, they split months before the bombs drop, 6 to be exact, and get some key components of their group to the rig, and other safe spots across the country.

When the bombs drop, their is chaos. Communications destroyed, people dead, etc etc. For the Enclave this also brings opportunity. Much of their opposition would have been killed or thrown into chaos. They can now begin working on taking over.

But, they themselves suffer the same disadvantages. No communication, etc. They wouldn't know who survived or what they were doing, with obvious threats from political leaders who were not Enclave and military who were not, like the guys who became the BoS.

This is why we don't "see" the Enclave in FO1. They are trying to sieze power and control of the USA and doing it covertly. They need to assess threats to their takeover. They don't pop out in 2090 saying they are the government and here to help, because for all they know other factions within the government and military have also done this, and the Enclave is not ready for a bloody coup.

So, they do clandestine missions, gather as much data on the west coast as possible.

See, if they were legit government, they would start recovery. If they ran across other government types or military, awesome, reunite, but, they don't want to share power. They want it all. Every action by the Enclave in FO2 and 3 has been a hostile take over.

It was clearly portayed in things which are no longer canon that the Enclave was a shadow government, by the writers and designers of FO2, so why you think the shadow government idea is weird is kinda confusing. But I need to eat, so to be continued.

Let's give this a rest shall we. OP you have done this to death and all that is now happening is you are repeating stuff said many times before, time out.