I'd Just like to say: The enclave, the post-war descendents of the United States Government. - If you think they're gone, your probably wrong. Just remember lots of communications were cut who knows what is left of them are out there. For crying out loud who knows maybe they are at "A-51". For all i know is that if they were in Chicago, would they not of been encountered by yours truly, the Midwest Brotherhood?

Only if they're similar to how they were in New Vegas, as Enclave Remnants.

You claim Chicago like it is a fact. When it is not.

If Chicago Enclave existed there 2077 or was founded by Enclave migrating west from DC post war, or if it was founded by Enclave migrating west from Navarro.

YOU do not know, yet you proclaim it like you do.

Fact, all we know is DC Enclave know of Enclave in Chicago.

Fact, in order to know of this, they diverted course from DC and went to Chicago.

Seeing how we should assume they are on limited resources, diverting course and going to Chicago is telling me something.

If they did it for comm purposes, well why? According to you guys, Enclave comm is top notch.

Fact is, we do not know. They could have picked up a Enclave transmission, and that is why they went there.

Well it too bad you let Styles decide what you do.

Enclave numbers are a fairly important factor. For example, you can't make them too small, or how would they have done all this research, created APA, weapons, vertibirds, and conducted military operations.

You need: politicians. Scientists/researchers/engineers. Military. Workers, who do manual labor creating the verts, etc. If there were say only 100 people on the rig 2077, all this work they ended up doing would be impossible.

{Quote}If Chicago Enclave existed there 2077 or was founded by Enclave migrating west from DC post war, or if it was founded by Enclave migrating west from Navarro.{/quote}
- You mean east from Navarro right?
- Plus your right, for all we know they could have been, in chicago, wiped out or they might not even be there.
- Just remember guys each part of the enclave as we have seen the Fallouts so far have been way different from each other.
- The one back west (Fallout 2's) was to basically to purge the wasteland and find a "cure" for mutations.
- The one in Fallout NV was just remnants. (These were probably not connected to the Fallout 3's enclave.)
-Fallout 3's was somewhat similar to Fallout 2's - Eden's secretive goal was to eliminate any mutations.
- Overall Both sides of the Enclave have become stragglers. If they do return in Fallout 4, it would make sense they are to be stragglers. Then again if they meet up and bring forth a new leader they may possibly become powerful once again. Just remember not all of this stuff happened over night.

I don't actually. Styles advised me to leave awhile ago. I decided to stay and debate. Then I realized of my own accord that this is going nowhere and he was right. Its back and forth bickering and neither your mind nor my mind is going to be convinced.


Charles Curling states that 1000 individuals were aboard the rig. 1000 people. Not 1000 civilians. Not 1000 soldiers. 1000 people. Period.

Like I said. Believe what you want though.

The Enclave in Fallout 3 are from the Enclave in Fallout 2. This has been confirmed in Fallout 3 and New Vegas.

The Enclave in Fallout 2 did not want to cure mutants they wanted to wipe them out.

You are new so its hard to be mad at you but seriously the canon is well known. A little research or simply reading most of the posts, you would have found out that information.

Lol yes east. And exactly, who knows what in Chicago. That the point, and some people just assume it created by Autumn Sr. Well okay, and why? Why be on your way DC, go out of your way to Chicago, and create outposts?

If Eden can communicate to rig/navarro there no need for a comm relay center. So what is reason?

Also, if there about 300 soldiers fo3, then I would say there about 1000 Enclave plus in DC. Soldiers are all of fighting age. We don't see the parents of the troops and the current kids and teenagers. Takes two to tango, so 300 troops is 600 parents. If the 300 troops had but one kid, that 300 children minimum. That is 1200 Enclave DC. And that as minimum a number as possible. Add 100 researchers/scientists, there parents, there kids, and you talking 1600.

You're confusing and twisting my words there. That they were not the official COG as per law doesn't mean they weren't acting as a shadow government. They had a very low level of organisation, but there was no official organisation in law called "Enclave".
Yes, they were doing stuff pre war - the "Enclave Conspiracy" were. They were not at this point however "The Enclave", they were the people that became the Enclave...

Ok. Well then there are a lot more than 200 Enclave on the mainland if there only 1000 people on the Rig.

If there only 1200 Enclave total. And it takes 50 years for population to double, then that would mean 50 years before there were only 600 Enclave, and in 2077 only 150. Half of that 150 would have to be women, cuz 150 dudes is no party.

And I am pretty much gonna say with that low a number, no APA, verts, or mad weapons.

I have to say well said

Why do you assume the Enclave's population grew over time? It may have remained static, declined, or grown only slightly from the original group. Unrestricted and/or rapid reproduction is not a smart idea when you only have limited resources and a small confined environment to live in.

And I'm saying they had a name for their shadow government, and that name was Enclave, and they were more than a handful of people.

A handful of people cannot possibly influence gov't as much as they did, nor do all these pre-war clandestine ops.

No way a handful of guys influence Repconn, Poseidon, Wes-Tek, the government and the military. How does a mere handful merge together all these researchers and scientists to construct apa, verts, plasna weapins.weapons.

It reminds me of old Illuminati saying.

"Not every person in Poseidon is Enclave, but every member of the Enclave is in Poseidon".

That is what shows control.

The population is composed of children, young advlts, advlts, middle aged, elderly.

If they don't grow, everything they accomplished as far as APA, Verts, weapons, not to mention a military force, would have been impossible. They just wouldn't have the man power of advlts and middle aged to produce all this stuff.

This isn't like a vault where they are in a controlled environment. They can expand to the mainland and keep the rig population to the 1000. Technically, you can double pop every 38 years, I took up to 50 because it easier number to deal with and takes conditions into consideration.

That doesn't make any sense. Maintaining a certain population size doesn't mean the Enclave would be incapable of innovation or putting a certain percentage of that population in uniform. You're still having children you're just not having so many it imperils your limited resources.

They could've expanded to the mainland but there's no proof they did. And I'm not saying this to get into an argument about mainland bases I'm simply saying it to prove that your insistence that 1200 Enclave is too few is flawed since you're assuming for no reason that the Enclave population's must have significantly expanded since 2077.

If you want to assume they started in 2077 as 1200 people and remained stagnant, can try that, too.

My point is starting 2077 at 150 people, is impossible, to thus accomplish all they did.

But, as a fairly militant organization, and following history, they are going to want to aggressively increase their number. Agreed?

Btw, I don't argue, I express ideas and try to figure things out, and it may require speculation but so be it.

But if there is only 1200 people, 1k on rig, and 200 at Navarro, the forces we see in FO3 are impossible, unless there were more in Navarro or another base someplace else.

Judging from what I've read in this thread, I'm not going to deal with you for long, but in short. You are arguing, you're using your opinion as if it were canon fact.

A. The Fallout Bibles cannot be taken as Canon. Semi-Canon is as best we can get.

B. Don't pull [censored] from Van Buren either, it's a scrapped game, it's lore does not exist, save for what shreds New Vegas surgically attatched, which isn't much, and what little is is vastly different from it's VB design documents.

C. No they would not want to expand, their whole plan has always subsisted of 'sit and wait' with their FEV vials doing the work by killing off all mutated life, and the pure strains slowly claiming their country.

D. Why would they not want to plan? It's essentially a group like the BoS, a paramilitary orginization spending a large portion of it's life in air filtration bunkers with little time topside, highly armed and tech reliant, and what they have is carefully rationed to last. They, like the Vaults, are likely to have scheduled insemination/sixual night times to encouraged planned procreation.

E. The forces in Fallout 3's storyline are fairly small. By storyline, you CANNOT count Enclave Post Bumbleballs out in the middle of Canterberry as canon source of info because then you're trying to subsist gameplay as lore information, which is a faux pas. The truth is we do not know what the Enclaves numbers were Pre and Post Fallout 2. With 3 however, it is safe to be assuming their numbers in the mid to high hundreds, which is high for a Wasteland army.

Of course they will want to expand, and be ready to populate once the FEV does its job. Every militant group in history has initiated aggressive reproduction. Would they do so to endanger themselves? No, but as soon as they could, they would.

FEV is also not the Enclave plan in FO3. Eden, yes. Autumn, no.

With a few hundred soldiers, in say like Lt did, 300-500 range, of advlt age, say 20-40 years of age, that number is impossible for 200 people to produce from FO2 to FO3 unless:

1. There are more people in Navarro than 200.
2. They encountered more Enclave.

Also, they either started at the rig with 1000-1200 people and maintained the population, or they started with say 500 and did some aggressive expansion population wise from the start.

Seeing how they went to the rig 6 or 7 months before the bombs, they could have started off at full capacity and maintained. That plenty of time to make preperations.

Also. The Enclave actions in FO3 are what I would classify as aggressive and definitely not sit and wait. Even their actions we see in FO2 are no longer sit and wait. It was what, maybe 20-50 years prior to FO2 that they found FEV? So, for 100 years or so the Enclave plan was not FEV.

But you're the only one who brought this up 150 people figure. There's no reason to assume the Enclave ever had that few people.

Why would they want to aggressively increase their numbers when they were on the Rig? What purpose would that serve?

Well first you'd have to figure out how many Enclave are actually supposed to be in FO3 in terms of lore. As far as I'm aware we have no actual idea of those numbers. Let's assume 200 survivors from Navarro, double that population over the 40 years since Fallout 2 (since the Enclave would now want to aggressively rebuild their ranks) and that gives about 400 Enclave total. Let's assume maybe a quarter are in the military (which is very high but the Enclave is stretched pretty thin) and you could see around 100 soldiers in the D.C. area which is pretty believable in terms of lore to me.

Okie:

I said the 150 because some people believe Enclave small pre-war, and act like not many people. Then they say 1200 people total FO2. So, I did reverse population growth as an example to show what min Enclave could be circa 2077 to produce the 1200. Imo that number too small, with min Enclave 2077 having to be at least 500 or more to achieve what they did. I also agree 1000-1200 could be starting number.

Why expand? FEV only a fairly recent plan. Meaning for first 100 years or so plan was who knows, but I'm sure reclaiming America is a priority. Military types would be pushing for more soldiers. That is how they think, possibly saying will have to take the mainland by force.

Also original plan "continue the war" so again the more military minded Enclave would be pushing for more and more soldiers.

Now if assume 200 survivors from Navarro and 50/50 split men and women, then Autumn Sr did not take everyone, but say 50%, so 100 go east and 100 remain. Well, now we are running into a problem.

Not to mention if only 100 left behind, we basically saw 10% of the survivors in fonv.

Also, it isn't just the 200, 300, 400 soldiers, but throw in the scientists, engineers, possible politicians, and kids and elderly we do not see, bit still count as population.

Ok snagged some dates. 2236 Enclave find Mariposa and FEV.

So, for 159 years their plan is definitely not FEV.

What are they doing? Well, obviously making verts and weapons. And in 2215 APA. In 2235, they are experimenting on deathclaws and clearly going to the mainland by then.

Seeing how until everything they do up until 2236 has to deal with increasing military power, and you need soldiers to do this, pretty good reason to expand your population if you ask me. Every action is one of conquest. Like Lt said, you don't do that with 1200 people.

Listen EvilBastard if you love this idea so much about this then write a fan-fic about it and stop flooding the forums with these redundant topics. As possible as it MIGHT be that there is an enclave empire in the South somewhere, for a series to move forward then they need to die off or have some EXTREMELY different tactics that make them essentially a different faction in all but name.

Don't read it then dude. It one topic, has Enclave in title, don't click it. There are people on this forum who claim to know everything, and they don't.

"We know little about Enclave pre Oct 23 2077, but EVERYTHING about them from Oct 24 2077 on, because they told us".

Well that is a total knee high in cow patty statement right there. What did they do for 154 years? Oh they implemented the sit and wait policy cuz the witch doctor had a vision that in 2236 they would find the FEV.

I'm trying to gather up some facts and make some deductions. One fact is there is a 154 year gap of nothing. Another misconception is this handful of people 2077. No way they could breed, teach, train, develop, and manufacter everything with a handful.

What is the point of playing the game if you hate everything? Enclave, meh no. BoS, meh No! Next I guess people be hating on NCR, Legion, Meh!! 2 games of NCR!! Nooooo. Meh Radscorps! Meh Mutants!!! Oh, no I don't hate them, I just never want to see them in game again. I find it very comical that people just have to have something to complain about, and if someone comes along and opens up a discussion that threatens the status quo they think they have achieved, they throw a fit. Can't have no Enclave! Us dinosaurs done killed and buried them!

Lt. Andronicus Posted Yesterday, 04:11 PM

"And would blackhawk helicopters be used to transport these individuals? Perhaps, but not necessarily. Any number of aircraft could be used. Many government bunkers have airstrips nearby for the express purpose of transporting individuals."

As backed up by Broken Steel, where there's an underground railway leading from the White House to Adams Air Force Base, showing that the pre war government had a COG plan in place. Just my minor contribution to the debate.

I have never doubted a CoG plan. What I question is the effectiveness of this plan to be carried out in a Total Nuclear War.

Airfields and aircraft, and all vehicles are useless if: EMP damage wipes them out. The blast from any explosion damages the vehicle in some way. The vehicle requires fuel that is not available. For choppers and planes, it requires a pilot to survive.

Now, from my understanding of nuclear weapons, and I am no expert, but it seems like different effects depending where the nuke is detonated in relation to the ground. Some increasing range of EMP damage, some causing more physical damage, etc. Certain key targets would probably get a combination of different strikes. Satellites are not that hard to disable either, and in war, communications is a primary target, to increase confusion in your enemy.

Now the rig is an important thing, and I can think of two possibilities:

A. When constructed the rig was secretly made into a fully operational CoG base, created in a joint effort by Poseidon and Enclave.

B. It was not originally planned as a CoG base, but when Enclave retreated there they refurbished the rig into one. They had 6 months to do so.

Either way really the Enclave has plenty of time to stock the rig with supplies and people. Besides politicians, the rig would have to be composed of scientists and engineers, military personnel etc in order to teach, train, and maintain a group that can construct all of the things we know that they did.

Secondly, the population of the rig would have to be at least 500 people in order to accomplish all of this, and more than likely started at full capacity in the 1000-1200 range, mainly because why gamble when you have 6 months to prepare.

The next question is what they did for 150 years. Military types would want expansion as soon as possible, to increase their military strength. Also, a foothold on the mainland is paramount for future operations on the mainland. They would know a military base is at Navarro, and securing that area would be essential.

Now the earliest we know the Enclave was doing ops on the mainland is 2235. In my opinion however, they would have gone to the mainland much earlier to gain the foothold and secure their goals for the future. The military base at Navarro is probably the most ideal, and in doing so would also allow them to increase their population.

Fact is, somehow the Enclave had to increase their population. Even if Autumn took every survivor from Navarro, which he did not do, that would make the entire population of Enclave at 400 by the time of FO3.

A population of 400, composed of all age groupa, from children to elderly. Clearly, with as earlier said there are almost 300 troops in CW area, this is not a representable population. Meaning the Enclave had to have expanded their population from the 1200 some suggest existed in FO2. Or they encountered Enclave in another area(Chicago), which boosted their numbers.

Also note that the Enclave between FO2 and FO3 still had the numbers to make further research in technology. Eyebots, Hellfire Armor, weapons, etc and this is further evidence that their numbers were higher.