I have been watching this topic for a while now and it certainly seems like one person going round in repetitive circles every other post against the rest. It follows more along the lines of canon and history vs wild jumps of possibilities and "what ifs". This really does belong in the Universe forum so I am moving it there.

Thats cool. But as soon as you say the words FO4 and Enclave, or future FO and Enclave there is a very vocal crew who attacks you and sabotages your entire post into a defensive history debate. Which btw, I don't think is very cool.

Oh pssh. Give me a break. That's not what it is at all. I want the Enclave to appear in Fallout 4. At Chicago, and as a minor faction. Styles has a "this is what I want for Fallout 4 theory" which involves the remnants of the Enclave. Sebor wants the game in Chicago as well and the Enclave to make an appearance, and the list goes on.

However, when we come in with our criticism is when people (you) start saying things like "The Enclave on the Rig was just a splinter group of the real Enclave" or "the Enclave has bases all over the United States because it makes sense that way" or even "the Enclave had to have had way more than 1200 people in Fallout 2 because it makes sense". And my personal favorite "there is no communication between the Enclave because that's ridiculous and it doesn't make sense."

These are the arguments that set us off in debates. My problem isn't with the Enclave appearing in future games as a minor faction. That was never my point.

Someone comes up with ideas about Enclave and offers different opinion on the "scattered few defeated Enclave" and they get told:


"Rabble rabble rabble Enclave dead rabble rabble oil rig rabble rabble Raven Rock.. Rabble rabble AAFB. Rabble. Dead.

Then behaves like they know what Enclave did for 150 years and that they already know origins of Chicago.

And they say any counter arguement is stupid. Don't believe me? Read the original thread.

However, how would YOU explain 200 Navarro survivors accounting for the numbers in FO3? This can only be two things.

1. More people than you guys think.
2. They found other Enclave.

If not that, explain please. 36 years between FO2 and 3. How do they do it?

Alright. Make it 250 or then. At most 300. Add that with a carefully monitored breeding plan and that accounts for the numbers. There isn't much more than 300-375 Enclave members in Fallout 3 anyway.

See, I've always been of the mind that there were Enclave posts around the country, but not like ant hills, maybe one or two here and there, and another few elsewhere. However, I wouldnt believe they'd operate soley in one tiny place, them having a depot in Vegas proves they have to have had SOME sort of national comm link. As I understand/see it, it's that the Rig/Navarro group were the vast majority of the Enclave, with splinter bases scattered around in a few points of the country, and when the rig blew up, Eden summoned the Enclave, with a few of their numbers (few being relative) remaining at Navarro as a sort of 'minimal defense requirement' where as the rest flocked to Eden to assume a new Oil Rig type of operation. Then when Raven Rock fell, Enclave high command was in disarray up to the point AAF Base when they were basically nuked again. At this point, I believe the forces that escaped are at said smaller splinter bases are remnants on the run.

In some ways, I want to see the Enclave victorious SOMEWHERE, because I honestly think they're the bad guy soley because we play on the opposing side. I'd like to see a Fallout game with a more sympathetic outlook on them and their goals.

I don't recall ANY specified number of Navarro survivors, so PLEASE stop establishing your ideas as canon facts. As for the people getting ornery, the Enclave lovers around here dont want the Enclave to not appear in a game, but after Fallout 3's black and white morality chart, they are very unwilling to see any more 'herp derp Enclave bad BoS good'. Your idea of a massive Enclave stormtrooper army is insane because simply put, it affirms to the casual Fallout player the very thing Enclave hardliners around here fear, that the Enclave is evil for the giggles and little more. If you look at the Enclave, it isn't evil. In the simple terms, they are the last of a great nation fighting for America. That's what caused Orion to become so bitter when they lost Navarro, the NCR ultimately fought with a USAF military facility. You're making the very blunder Fallout 3 made, you're to focused on the cool factor and the appearances for the sake of appearance, but not the careful loving tenderness to establish a real faction, saying who they are and what their motives are.

Right but you're the only one who brought up the 150 figure.

As I've said before if reclaiming America was a big priority then why did the Enclave sabotage the Vaults that contained thousands of loyal American citizens? If reclaiming America was a priority then why was there no attempt made by the Oil Rig to find all these other Enclave forces you claim exist? The Enclave clearly did not rely on large numbers for their original plan (whatever that was).

Well we know the post-Rig Enclave has conscripted wastelanders. For all we know they could've initiated a drastic breeding program in Raven Rock. They might have the technology for that. Maybe in the lore there's not supposed to be that many Enclave soldiers in D.C. at all. There's a lot more explanations than "They must have found more Enclave." And again, if these new Enclave have been isolated for two centuries why would they still be Enclave?

I agree. There could be small amounts of Enclave outposts scattered here and there. Although at this point I would imagine only ones with any sort of relevance would be the ones in Chicago. The rest would either be abandoned (like the one in New Vegas) or tiny WWII Japanese style "holdouts."

However, what evilbastrd in suggesting is that there could be another Raven Rock size Enclave base out there, because "the Enclave on the Rig were likely just a splinter group and we just don't know."

I also want to see the Enclave succeed at something, but I think the best victory they can hope for know is continued existence in Chicago.

I dunno, didn't ED-E's logs basically hint Chicago may be no more?

Also, if Beth makes an Enclave base in Fallout 4 with a full fledged army and 'conveniently' another ZAX/computer president, I'll be pretty pissed about it. Because Fallout 3's story was very bland, it's not a story that should be rehashed. I seriously HOPE the devs of 4 take the time to read the lore threads, the wikia, and read how the serious fans treat the lore. I understand there's a larger fanbase who just like the simple minded booms and explosions, but some of us treat the lore with a lot of love. To sit there and just keep rehashing the Enclave as this black group is old. Fallout 2 they were dark grey morality, 3 they plummeted, and in New Vegas, one could argue them as the tragic hero in many senses.

The remnants remind me of the Nazi Regime. Even though the higher ups in the Nazi party commited attrocities, the general troop was usually just wanting to fight for their country, who was struggling at the time. If you're an Enclave trooper, you see the US as this ruined but not destroyed nation, poverty and suffering everywhere. Though you do bad things, it's with good intentions, and you feel the ends justify the means. If you took an Enclave group and removed the mass genocide of Wasters part of their past plans, which in 3 is technically only wished for by Eden, the rest are just racist, they would quite likely have a real chance at suceeding and restoring an American society.

Not necessarily, we don't really have any proof he tried to visit the Chicago Outposts. All we know is that a wasteland family near the Chicago area fixed him up after he had broken down.

It may or may not indicate the loss of Chicago. We need further information.


Agreed.

I didn't come up with those numbers dude. Those are numbers thrown at me by people.

Lt, Styles etc say canon says 1000 on rig and I think it was Lt who said "maybe 200" at Navarro.

There could be 5000 Enclave at Navarro for all I care, but that would give Styles and Sebor cardiac arrest.

I wouldn't say cardiac arrest but that is a very high number.

If Navarro had that many people it probably would still be holding out against the NCR, if not than the NCR would be on the retrreat.

I will bring up numbers to disprove certain statements. Then try to figure out "okay, what would be the minimum number of people on the rig that would allow them to accomplish what they did". My min guess would be about 500, with the distinct possibility they started at max capacity, which people say is 1k or so.

You bring up good point, and I have never been a fan of the vault experiment. But gotta roll with it. I would imagine, as far as the experiment went, the control vaults and those who used independent non-vault-tec vaults were to be the lucky rebuilders.

However this reminded me of the one thing The Enclave did in the 150 year question mark. They sent the all clear signal to Vault 8 in 2091.

Now, the reason why I think the Enclave would be interested in expansion, is from 2077 onward, they don't know they are going to find a super virus that will help them cleanse the world.

All I know is plan wasn't FEV, because it doesn't make any sense to have a plan regarding something you don't have.

As far as finding or contacting Enclave, well, again we don't know what they did for a long time. However, I would imagine with limited resources they were restricted logistically by west coast ops. If they did explore the west, it would mean they setup a mainland base far earlier than imagined, and it would have allowed for more aggressive reproduction.

I definitely think they had some kind of plan other than sit and wait.

I for one would like to see the Enclave in FO:4. I'd like them to be a joinable faction and to have some sort of power wherever the game will be held (Chicago). I like evlbstrd don't think that a group as powerful and as well equipped as the Enclave would have put all their eggs in one basket. I also believe it's quite possible that they had several bases that were probably leveled in rank. The "Rig" maybe being filled with the top ranking officials, RR being filled with the second ranking officials, etc. Maybe they knew communications would be limited so they set bases up across the U.S. to cease control and assess what needed to be done. These are all conspiracy theories yes but the Enclave make up a kick A$$ pre-war government or shadow group trying to take control of what's left of the U.S. I'd be dissapointed if they weren't in the next game and especially if they weren't joinable. If they would have done 3 properly and made your choices actually count like the ability to side with them, then these conversations wouldn't be happening because they could have finally killed them off. That didn't happen so we need closure.

The Enclave have been the main focus of 2 whole games, 1 DLC, and featured ever-so-slightly in New Vegas. Even if they can come back, and even if they can't, do we want them to? They've been made out to be the evil Nazis of the post-apoc world and, again, have been featured twice. We don't need them, ever. They've been wiped out for all I care. Hell, they could own Mexico and have made Louisiana into a 1000-story skyscraqer filled with Super Mutants, as long as they aren't featured as the main enemy of a game again. Please stop this pointless argument.

I have never said the size of RR. RR is a CoG base, and in FO3 capable to hold the Verts. A vault size facility, yes. Most vaults or bunkers while excellent at protecting people, like Lost Hills, Hidden Valley, do not have vehicle storage.

Getting your butt whooped and almost facing extinction is a very humbling experience, which is why I don't think Autumn would keep the future of the Enclave, children, in RR. Especially seeing how he doesn't trust Eden.

If Chicago was a Hidden Valley type facility in 2077, and if a mere 100 Enclave resided in it, by 2277, there could be 800-1000 people.

That is really, not that many people. Compare it to military bases today that house 20,000 soldiers.

You guys like lore and history and so do I. Well, the Enclave has huge gap in that history, that no other faction that has appeared in game has.

I also do not want Enclave to be a kos "bad guy", or in tip top shape with full arsenal of verts. But, I can see them in better shape than NVBoS who basically cowering. I can also see them forming alliances with merc groups, merchants, and even slavers.

Hmmm....


Survey says:


That's as much as they had on the Rig and that's certainly more than what was located at Raven Rock.

Thus you have stated that you want another base the size of Raven Rock or greater. Thank you.


Considering that 20,000 soldiers is probably the extent of the NCR military, we really can't compare real-life numbers at all.

We don't hate everything in Fallout just when lazy writers beat a dead horse.

Which means the Enclave just threw away tens of thousands of American citizens for no reason. If the original plan was to rebuild America the Vault Experiments tell you nothing is useful and serve no purpose.


Yeah because they needed to activate the control Vault to compare it to the other Vaults.


Right but if their plan was to rebuild America as you're insisting they apparently went about it in the most utterly moronic and ineffective way possible.


Yes they presumably did. According to Van Buren and Tim Cain it was to evacuate the planet entirely because they assumed it would be uninhabitable. While this is non-canonical this actually explains why the Vault Experiments were conducted and why the Enclave didn't show any interest in the mainland for so long. According to your theory they were just a bunch of incompetent retards who deliberately wiped out most of their own future citizens for social experiments that serve no purpose and then sat on their asses for 150 years while failing to make any serious effort to get in touch with these other Enclave groups you want to claim exist. You're perfectly entitled to your theories but this is why other people find them unconvicing and think they would be a very bad addition to the series.

Unless they wanted it repopulated by Enclave and to not only repopulate, but take over. The USA was technically split with 13? Commonwealths. If they want to sieze control after the war, any political opposition will need to be dealt with. The Enclave is not all politicians, and assuming other gov't officials also had plans of survival, who knows, maybe they had targets set for purging and sent to more "dangerous" vaults. Ya know, Vault City does have that holier than thou Enclave feel to it, so the control vaults were filled with personalities considered to be friendly to a Enclave regime.


But what are they comparing with? Supposedly the only two vaults the Enclave could communicate with was 8 and 13. Source of that is CA in the Bible.


I haven't really posted my theory on what Enclave was up to, cuz frankly people would throw a fit saying I am just speculating. I'm trying to discuss it by following as much canon as possible, which isn't verty much because of the 150 year gap.


Like I said above, I haven't posted my theory. But isn't what you said what the Enclave did anyway?

According to the people who say the Enclave dead and gone and who say it is because canon says so:

The Enclave sat on their butts for 150 years doing nothing.
Their plan was to kill everyone, then repopulate.
Either way, the vault people have no purpose, Enclave gonna kill em all.

Lol, it almost like you criticizing FO2, and you have the exact same beef I do, because I do NOT think they would sit on their butts for 150 years.

But if they are planning, in a sense, a post nuclear war coup, then I can understand the Vault Experiment and not caring about vault dwellers, except perhaps the control vaults, which by FO2 and Richardsons twisted plan, he does not care about anymore, either.

Now, I guess I could post my theory, but it would contain a bunch of speculation, and the people who swear up and down the Enclave "only had the rig and Navarro" would scream bloody murder that I'm going against canon. But those are the people who think the Enclave are artards and sat on their butt for 150 years. Not me.

How is your average American citizen a source of political opposition to the Enclave exactly? And again you're proving my point. If the Enclave could communicate with Vault 8 and it was filled full of people they thought they could trust then why didn't take charge of them? Why did they just ignore yet another source of loyal Americans if their plan was to rebuild the country? Whatever the Enclave's initial goal was it cannot have been to reclaim America because they took no actions to advance that goal for more than a century during most of which it would've been childishly easy for a powerful, technologically advanced force to do so.


I don't know where in the Bible it says that but lack of communication doesn't rule out observation. In fact it would be really weird if the Enclave went to the trouble of setting up all these social experiments and only had a way of monitoring two of them. Not as weird as throwing Enclave personnel around the country without having a way to communicate with them though so I guess it's not the craziest part of your speculations.


Well whatever it was it wasn't rebuilding America unless you want to turn the Enclave into complete morons.


They weren't sitting on their butts if you go with the Tim Cain/Van Buren explanation. They were monitoring the Vault Experiments (many of which were very long term) they set up specifically to see how people in isolated sealed environments would respond to various hazards, situations and dangers in preparation for their own trip. Then as the decades drag on the idea becomes less and less appealing and/or feasible (potentially due to all the data they're getting from the Vaults) and the mainland starts looking more and more like it could be habitable. Reconaissance reveals a lot of hazards however so there's a shift in focus to upgrading military technology (which explains the development of APA which occured almost 120 years after the Great War) in anticipation of this return. Then Enclave scouts discover FEV in Mariposa and now they have a new painless way to reclaim the mainland which they shift their focus to. It fits.

Whereas your speculations require the Enclave on the Oil Rig to have sat on their asses for 150 years twiddling their thumbs and making no effort to contact all the other groups of Enclave all over the country for no reason other than they're morons.


If their plan was a post-nuclear coup then why didn't they start rebuilding America once it was finished? Why did they sit on the Oil Rig for 150 years? Why did they make no effort to get in touch with all these other Enclave you claim exist? Your speculations only fit if we work from the assumption that the Enclave leadership was a bunch of drooling morons.

So note to the rest of the forum, just let it go.

Didn't see this. Actually, I would suppose that there are more numbers than you assume.

If there are 300 soldiers RR, when you add children, elderly, engineers, elite men of power within the group, the politicians or whatever, the numbers of Enclave DC far exceed 1000.

Do we see everyone Vault City? No way. I would assume by FO2, if there were 1000 people in Vault 8, VC is 6000-8000 people.

Unless I forgot about some dialog where gave exact numbers, then I hope they had a reason for backing up why they didn't reproduce.

However, because I view verts as a distinctive WC Enclave thing, Rig and DC more powerful on equipment and tech alone. Even APA is WC, so a group like Chicago would have totally different gear.

The military base anology is useful when trying to figure out size of a group like BoS. Which by going on ranks of officers who at Mariposa I have a theory about that as well.

And while the rig is limited to 1000 people, I also believe there are way more people on the mainland than 200-400.

There is just no way that there is this many. The CWBOS can't have more than a couple hundred in its ranks. How exactly were the CWBOS even a challenge for the Enclave in this case? The only way the defeat of the Enclave in Fallout 3 makes even the slightest bit of sense is if the Enclave had only as much or less than the CWBOS and Outcasts.


The point still stands that you believe that the Enclave still has a rig-sized force out there somewhere, which essentially makes their defeats in Fallout 2, Fallout 3, and in Broken Steel mean absolutely nothing. I thought you didn't want them to come back as a major faction ever again?

A 1000 strong Enclave force is a major faction.

This is very true.
Remember the five remenents who slaughterd hundreds of legion soldiers?
If they had 1000 we surely would have heard of them by now.

The only real way they will come back is from Styles theory.