Exactly.

1000 Enclave members in APA and supported by Vertibirds would decimate Caesar's forces in a hypothetical battle. They may not emerge completely victories over the Legion as a whole (depending on the circumstances), but it would certainly at the very least be a Pyrric victory for Caesar and would leave his forces in utter disarray.

Or the NCR is just that good.

According to Canon, there are precisely 103 people in Vault City. They tell us so.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault_City_Travel_Log

No. My speculation would be thay they did do this stuff. Also what you said makes no sense.

14 years after bombs drop they give all clear to Vault 8. So they know in 2091 the mainland could be reclaimed and safe for people to live.

Also, according to VB the Bloomfield plan was abandoned in 2077. So why would rig be thinking about space?

Also if attempting a coup, they don't have the troops in 2091 to do this. If Rig was max capacity you talking maybe 300 soldiers.

So first objective would have to be expansion, so they could increase numbers.

This is the so called FO2 Enclave plan, which I would say is artarded drooling morons.

Enclave go to Rig 2077. Bloomberg been abandoned. What next? Lets remain stagnant for 150 years and watch while civilization grows and we remain the same. Make some APA and Verts. Finally decide in 2230s to go mainland. Get lucky and find FEV.

My theory would be this:

2077: Enclave go rig 6 months before war. Enclave also make preperations in other parts of the USA. This includes RR, a base outside of Chicago, a base in Texas, and minor hot spots outside of strategic areas.

Bombs drop.

2087-2090: before this time it has been too dangerous to do anything, so basically all have sit tight. Soon as they feel it is safe, Enclave on Rig takes control of the military base outside Navarro, as gaining a foothold on the mainland is paramount.

They establish automatic base defenses and work on communications, creating a comlink to the Rig. Communications are horrible from the damage of war, but they re-establish comm and monitor two vaults in the area, sending the all clear to Vault 8 in 2091.

2090s-2100: They do their best to scout the area but would be limited to foot patrols and have to take precautions as there are more survivors than expected. Military leaders consider the threat level high and push for weapons research and for now decide direct involvement in the area not worth the risk of casualties.

2100s: Some survivors from RR show up with tales of horror from the wastes. Some of them abandoned the journey and instead tried for Chicago. The rest continued on and suffered vast casualties. RR however is intact, and the ZAX remains intact. A lot of bickering among leadership how to proceed, as their numbers are still small, but military research continues and expansion of numbers.

Scouts spot activity of a military organization in the region in power armor. This poses an extreme threat to the limited number of Enclave troops. Secrecy is of utmost importance, as detection could lead to attack. Increasing numbers and research is still main priority.

In the meantime civilization continues to grow. Leaders wonder if they can get their hands on a nuke to just wipe these people out of the way.

2161: FO1. A new threat of mutants arrise. This is good news for the Enclave, as hopefully the mutants and military will kill each other, allowing them to clean up the mess.

A pesky vault dweller ends the mutant threat, from Vault 13 no less. Note to Enclave: get revenge on V13.

2170-2215: population continues to grow and research continues with snags in APA. Finally, in 2215 APA is completed. Will this be enough to turn the tide in the region? Some Enclave desire to fight now. Others want more research. What if they can get some nasty critters to fight for them? The idea of experimenting on deathclaws is born.

2216-2235: Verts now assist in scouting, but limited range. Deathclaws prove very hard to capture. But by 2235 experimentation considered a success.

2236: Enclave finds Mariposa and the FEV. Richardson is ecstatic. Can now remove all opposition with no loss of Enclave forces. Research begins right away.

2241: Paranoid and fearful, Richarson makes a contigency plan. If any failure, return to RR and the ZAX.

2241+: Grrrrr stupid Chosen One $##%@&*$

Dude, I've warned you before. STOP.USING.VB.AS.CANON.

Anything that was in Van Buren? Never happen unless specified in Fallout 3 of Fallout New Vegas.

103 people in VC... LoL. Sooo there numbers have dropped. What was there only 5 people in Vault 8, or what?

Also NOT ALL Enclave are SOLDIERS.

1000 people consists of elderly, children, engineers, scientists, non combatants, and troops.

Gimme a break, not all Enclave are 20-30 yr old soldiers in APA.

Obviously this Vault-Tec video was not at Vault 8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2h-3JdDLhE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I was responding to Okie who came at me with VB question, so yell at him... or maybe read the posts and follow the conversation.

Had you played the game or done some lore research, there'd be no need for me to answer that. They have fertility issues.

Clearly you have no concept of careful rationing and planning. 103 people is very high for a privileged settlement like Vault 8. 1000 is ridiculously high for a Post-War contingent of people, they'd not have enough supplies to eat. Look at Rivet City, who has maybe 1-200 people at most lore wise, and even they have a hard time feeding, Tenpenny Tower? Maybe on par with Vault City. Your numbers are ridiculous and inconsistent with survival restraints of the brutallity of D.C. There are are no farms, no stable plant life to eat from, ultimately, for your numbers, they'd need a food plant, and for a food plant they'd need a stable food source. Your theory is largely unstructured OP.

As for the conversation, I have been following it, you just don't won't listen to reason when someone presents a point counter to your own.

@Agent C- That WOULD make sense, I mean, it is possible the contaminated ground water has caused sterility in some of the population. But ultimately, it could just be their population is kept low soley to keep supplies in reasonable stock.

It been a long time. But that is actually good, and fits into my theory on control vaults and would explain why VC useless for the Enclave. Thanks!

Whoa whoa whoa? So only the NCR can make food?

Are you talking about my DC population of Enclave? Umm RR was a CoG base apparently abandoned somewhat soon after the war. It would be stored with food, and they can't carry it all with them. When Autumn Sr got there it would be like Xmas as far as food was concerned.

-Sigh- No, what I am saying is to have a consistent population you need a consistant supply of food. Also, Raven Rock wouldnt have much food from the get go as Eden says himself that the remnants of the government fled west in the years preceding the War, and since then Raven Rock had servered as a relay with Eden being a member/advisor in Richardson's Cabinet. An average government meal consists of 3 meals a day, and with 1000 people eating, that's 3000 units of food being eaten per day, at the end of each week that's extending to 21,000 meals in one week alone. With Raven Rock being so remote, with no indication of food stores, factories, or farms, there is no logical explanation for where their food comes from. Unless you wish to carry on with the childish arguement of 'NO! MY WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY!' you will have to drastically cut your numbers by at LEAST 50%.

Yes. Exactly.

Undoubtedly Raven Rock has some method of providing food to its inhabitants, otherwise the Enclave simply wouldn't exist in the CW. However, there is a limit to how much it can reasonably provide. Any population number higher than a few hundred and it just becomes a logistical nightmare. They stayed locked up in RR for over 30 years, there simply isn't enough food to sustain a large population in any government bunker for that long, even with continued production.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this was part of the reasoning for the sudden strike after all these years during the Project Purity fiasco---they were running low on supplies and needed to move out into the wasteland.


The fact that you believe Vault City had 6000-8000 people when it only in reality had a population of 103 full citizens is certainly proof enough to me that you are widely speculating and that we can't trust any numbers you throw out.

How in the world can't you see this?

Speaking of Mr. Canon, it is NOT Canon that Eden was a prez advisor to Richardson. Eden never says it, FO3 game guide never says it, no place says it except the wiki, and wiki also says Enclave spread out globally.

The CoG bases would be stocked with food. The remnants who fled would not be able to take all the food. These facilities can also grow food. Also, a easy trick to get radiation out if water, run the water through a siphon of soil. The radiation/fallout will go to the dirt, purifying the water.

According to your numbers by the way, they would be struggling to keep their 300 troops alive. That also means: these troops have no parents and sprung from pods, no children, non-combatants, just what? Some magical army of 300 fighting age troops. Or, we assume they had food, could grow food, etc.

*Shrug* An error in the wiki, no big deal. Not the point at hand.

Raven Rock shows zero capability to have any farming, even real life CoG facilities stock mostly MRE rations, not farm supplies. Even so, if you're telling me that Raven Rock has a farm to produce 21,000 meals per week, you're insane. That would require ACRES of land.

Edit:


Did you not see what 2 old men in APA could do at Hoover Dam alone in a model of Power Armor outdated to the Enclave in F3 could do alone? The Enclave can subsist on several hundreds alone. Superior training and equipment see to this. Stop being so irrational about this.

This is relevant how?

If you are trying to discredit Martyr, it certainly didn't work.

I was wrong about VC. I forgot about this fertility problem. That means VC was basically a failure for a control vault.

How do you know food stores of a CoG base? These things would be loaded with seeds, water, and stocked from the go with all kinds of food. I guess the NCR is the only outfit who figured out the need of food, and everyone else is starving.

If the NCR can do it, I think anyone can. Now you want to debate food or the Enclave?

But... 300 troops did not spring from nowhere. That means potentially 600 parents. And current children. The 1000 number is a very conservative number.

Or what? Autumn and his harem of 300 Enclave women arrived in DC. With a bottle of Viagra and Dean Dominoes greatest hits he quickly "went to work". He sired 300 kids all trained as soldiers and dues from exhaustion.

300 moms 300 troops. No more kids, Autumn Jr. 601. Oh and no engineers or non combatants.

Seeds need land, sun, water and work to grow. The NCR has all 4, the Enclave, not so much.

Exactly. So now how do you know you aren't wrong about the numbers of the Enclave? You did the same sort of little calculation for Vault city that you have been doing for the Enclave, and you ended up missing the mark by a ridiculous amount.


We have proof of the NCR's vast food production abilities. Hence Brahmin Barons and the NCR sharecropper farms as just two examples. Never have we ever run across Enclave farming capabilities.

No doubt they can farm, but their situation very much prevents it. Especially in the DC area.

No. I'm saying this so the person who jumps on my back if I answer a question about VB, and yells at me don't talk about VB when I wasn't the person who brought it up in the first place, with the entire reason: it is not canon, should chill cuz he just said a bunch of stuff that is not canon.

Making food indoors is not hard. I do it. If I had a huge CoG facility, I could make a lot of food.

Well there's me and you, so that's proof that their is at least two Enclave soldiers out there.

.....

He said one thing that wasn't canon and is a fairly common misconception (and it is actually in debate, since many people on the wiki claim it is from a developer interview that was in a magazine). Comparing that to what you are doing.....there is no comparison.

Can grow food inside. In fact, I grow awesome peppers, tomatoes, green beans, and onions. Very little work. And I live in a frozen tundra.

My calculations on VC wrong cuz of fertility problem. How can you explain 300 troops, with no parents and no more children? You are ignoring vital components of population. At least I am attempting to come up with and explain a number.


How did rig maintain 1000 people if it impossible to grow food indoors? According to those who believe they sat on butt for 150 years and did nothing, where is there food?

How about we just assume that seeing how food is essential they mastered art of making food indoors and took that knowledge with them.

Sooo, can we get off food?

Edit: if your arguement that it is impossible for a CoG base to maintain 1k people cuz of food, then it is impossible for the Rig stuck in the pacific, too.

Not saying its impossible to grow food indoors. Indeed, I think its likely that they did. However, there is only so much that can be done in this regard. There is no way a government bunker is going to be able to supply a population for more than a few hundred with growing indoor food.

But yes, you're right, let's get off food. Regardless of what you think about the indoor food, an 1000 strong Enclave in Fallout 3 is simply too large. They would have been able to overrun the Capital Wasteland with a force that size. The BOS wouldn't have stood a chance.

See above. I edited my post. If it impossible for RR, it impossible for the rig, yet there are "1000 Enclave" on the Rig.

I did not say 1000 soldiers. I said 1000 Enclave. Do you understand this includes elderly, children, engineers(someone making hellfire), all non-combatants. 300 soldiers. Do you get what I am saying?

This side debate on food totally derailed the theory I posted.