Enclave Return Part 2 : Fallout Series Discussion

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:39 am

I am the one using ingame conversations, from Fallout 2, Fallout 3 and New Vegas as well as info from game guides. You are the one pulling stuff out of the air and passing it off as facts.

This all boils down to one thing with you. You don't like that the Enclave put all their eggs in one basket. Well to damn bad. Get use
So you don't like that the Enclave put all their eggs in one basket. svck it up and move on, because they did just that. There is a mountain of evidence to support what myself and others are saying. They were over confident to the point of arrogance and they paid the price for it.

There is not one instance in FO2, FO3, or FONV, where anyone in the Enclave says the rig and Navarro were the only Enclave base.

Richardson implies in game, there were several plans. Fact.

In FO3 game guide it says Autumn Sr, under orders of the president, went to RR, the only other Enclave base WITH a functioning ZAX super computer..

This sentence not only implies Richardson gave the order, but also the existence of other bases, albeit without a ZAX.

Fact.

And yes, because I do not believe the Enclave is dumb, and would follow BASIC COG and survival principles, I do not believe they put all their survival hopes on one thing. Just like there are multiple vaults, spread all over, various bunkers and shelters, I have no reason to believe the Enclave would abandon this basic principle for themselves.

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:41 am

Do we have to go through all the evidence for the millionth time?

This is your plan isn't it? Just keep ignoring all the evidence over and over and over again, and then you have the nerve to ask for the evidence yet again.

» Thu May 03, 2012 5:42 pm

People are allowed to disagree - you can have a fictional faction in a fictional world with fictional background an interpret it one way - if you want to, because it is a game - from someone else who has decided they believe the fictional politics or whatever have a different interpretation.

as long as people are civil, free free to debate away.

» Thu May 03, 2012 7:44 pm

There is a difference between (IMO) and canon. It may be your opinion that the Enclave aboard the Rig were a splinter group, but that does not make it so.

It is well established that the Oil Rig was the headquarters of the Enclave and their main base of operations for most of the post-war years. We have no evidence or even any reason to believe that they were a "splinter group" of a much larger Enclave faction. And frankly, even if you're right, it would be absolutely horrid writing on the part of whoever was to come up with the idea that the Enclave we have known this entire time hasn't been the "real" Enclave. It would be at this point that I would throw up my hands and lose the last shed of hope I have for Bethesda's writing abilities.

Most evidence points to the Enclave being the remnants of the United States Government in any case. The result of a continuity of government operation that included the military industrial complex. They were a "shadow government" whose purpose was to step up and take power following the result of a major national catastrophe as is what occurred with the great war.

What is a splinter group? Is it not a group who as part of an organization, group, ideology, that forms its own beliefs?

Is it not a fact that the Enclave circa FO2 has a plan, and ideology(anti-impure humans) that is in no way shape or form a belief Enclave had circa 2077? Then they are a splinter group. Just like Lyons BoS is a splinter group, MWBoS is, and WCBoS is. Even the Outcasts are.

I didn't say there is a giant Enclave army. Never said that, and I don't believe there is. Other Enclave bases and beliefs? Yes.

And as far as Chicago goes, sure it makes sense they made it on way to DC. But it also makes sense Enclave spread out pre-war, and ya'll bash that. Soooo... things can only "make sense" if it supports your idea?

My question with Chicago, IF it was occupied by WC Enclave, is WHY Chicago. Was there an exiating Enclave base there? Was there some other significant reason? If it just a comm relay, it seems pointless as it is way far from the WC. Generally people do things for a reason, so what reason behind Chicago? Or, was it because Chicago was already an existing base?

» Thu May 03, 2012 6:19 pm

Styles and evlbastrd, hold on, I'm going to grab some popcorn.

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:03 pm

The thing is with Brotherhood spliter groups, they at least have some stuff in common. Your idea is that other Enclave groups have been in some bunkers somewhere for 200 years with zero contact with one another. So this would mean after 200 years, they would have little if anything in common from when they last saw one another in 2077.

Its like saying the Orginal Brotherhood is just like the MWBoS. They both call themselves Brotherhood of Steel. Other than that, they have nothing really in common.

» Fri May 04, 2012 9:02 am

Since evlbsastrd is gone, I'll continue the argument.

You are wrong, I am right.

Here is a list of reasons why you are wrong.

http://www.gutsofaburglar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/extremely-good-reasons3.jpg

» Fri May 04, 2012 9:33 am

Since evlbsastrd is gone, I'll continue the argument.

You are wrong, I am right.

Here is a list of reasons why you are wrong.

http://www.gutsofaburglar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/extremely-good-reasons3.jpg

Ha!

Although that is a little over the top it was a good laugh.

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:01 am

Ha!

Although that is a little over the top it was a good laugh.

Just trying to lighten up the thread a little bit

» Thu May 03, 2012 6:01 pm

Chicago is very well known to those who know lore and do not make it up. It is an Enclave Outpost that was established by the Enclave moving from California to Washington D.C.

I have decided to make a map showing you a few things in canon that make it impossible for the Enclave to be anywhere else.

Here it is: http://s1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa389/Sebor13/?action=view&current=USAMap.png

The black represents the area where the Enclave has been, heard of, or their very ideals completely rejected in known canon.

The red represents the rough area where their bases where (not sure I'm exact with Navarro).

The blue represents the area that John Henry Eden's radio signal would have to cover to be able to contact Navarro. This makes it absolutely impossible for the Enclave to be a splinter faction or part of any bigger faction at all.

Just accept the facts and stop with this nonsense.

Lol. There is nothing in canon that says Eden contacted Navarro. None.

There is also nothing in canon that says who made or what or how many is in Chicago.

Like I said, FO3 game guide makes it out like Richardson sent Autumn to RR, because there was a ZAX, not because JHE was there.

The ex-Enclave in grayditch has no idea who Eden is. If Eden could broadcast all the way to Navarro, which impossible imo, why wouldn't he know who Eden is?

» Fri May 04, 2012 5:54 am

Just trying to lighten up the thread a little bit

Word.

» Thu May 03, 2012 6:41 pm

Lol. There is nothing in canon that says Eden contacted Navarro. None.

There is also nothing in canon that says who made or what or how many is in Chicago.

Like I said, FO3 game guide makes it out like Richardson sent Autumn to RR, because there was a ZAX, not because JHE was there.

The ex-Enclave in grayditch has no idea who Eden is. If Eden could broadcast all the way to Navarro, which impossible imo, why wouldn't he know who Eden is?

I am sorry, I misread the quote. Eden said he watched them travel east, I misread it as contacted them.

Why would they go clear across the country to a base with a ZAX and no personnel if there was even one other Enclave base? Why are you arguing this as if its you're life's goal?

And there is no ex-Enclave in Grayditch, the only person I can see as possibly think you're talking about is Dr. Lesko who had nothing to do with the Enclave.

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:04 am

The thing is with Brotherhood spliter groups, they at least have some stuff in common. Your idea is that other Enclave groups have been in some bunkers somewhere for 200 years with zero contact with one another. So this would mean after 200 years, they would have little if anything in common from when they last saw one another in 2077.

Its like saying the Orginal Brotherhood is just like the MWBoS. They both call themselves Brotherhood of Steel. Other than that, they have nothing really in common.

There could very well be a group of Enclave who identify themselves to the ideology of the pre-war Enclave a lot more than the ant-impure human kill everyone Richardson Enclave.

» Fri May 04, 2012 2:41 am

I am sorry, I misread the quote. Eden said he watched them travel east, I misread it as contacted them.

Why would they go clear across the country to a base with a ZAX and no personnel if there was even one other Enclave base? Why are you arguing this as if its you're life's goal?

And there is no ex-Enclave in Grayditch, the only person I can see as possibly think you're talking about is Dr. Lesko who had nothing to do with the Enclave.

Umm you need to go back to Grayditch and hack William B's computer.

And because it is a ZAX?

» Fri May 04, 2012 4:20 am

There could very well be a group of Enclave who identify themselves to the ideology of the pre-war Enclave a lot more than the ant-impure human kill everyone Richardson Enclave.

Really?
Well why don't use explain yourself for a change, how would they relate to a faction that was only on the Oil Rig?

How would they fit into canon? How would they not have contacted fellow members of their group for two centuries?

» Fri May 04, 2012 12:48 am

The ex-Enclave in grayditch has no idea who Eden is. If Eden could broadcast all the way to Navarro, which impossible imo, why wouldn't he know who Eden is?

He also mentions nothing about the Enclave moving east and is surprised when he sees they've arrived. Ergo, he wouldn't have known either way because he apparently wasn't there when Eden contacted them (which I assume he did).

If I remember correctly, his entries indicate that he left before the destruction of the Rig, but like I said above, it doesn't really matter.

Lol. There is nothing in canon that says Eden contacted Navarro. None.

Either way you look at it, there must have been some contact made. Either Richardson contacted Eden or Eden contacted Richardson. The game guide clearly states that a President gave the order, which leaves only Richardson or Eden. So we know it was a devised contingency plan.

If Richardson gave the order to go east, how would he know that Eden was functional? How would he know that Raven Rock was operational and would make a good base as opposed to the many other possible locations between it and the Rig? How does Eden have records on Richardson and states that when he was forming his personality he modified himself with parts of Richardson's persona? Thus Richardson either had some contact with Raven Rock, or Eden had some contact with Navarro and/or the Oil Rig, its that simple and there's no way around it.

Oh wait, did they send robots to one another across country like the pony express as you once said?

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:45 am

Umm you need to go back to Grayditch and hack William B's computer.

And because it is a ZAX?

I just checked, I had forgotten all about him (I don't remember much about those already dead in F3). He was an average soldier, knowledge of John Henry Eden being a ZAX was reserved for the highest ranking members only. Autumn Sr. was likely contacted by him personnaly and moved east, its speculation but has a far better base then your own.

Because its a ZAX isn't a very good answer. Wouldn't they have made contact with the other groups at the least? JHE was able to watch them move east, and likely contacted them, wouldn't he have been able to contact the other Enclave if it existed? The answer is yes if they existed but no because they do not.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:22 am

Lt:

You are starting to see what I am getting at. There are a lot of questions that are still unanswered. It leaves a lot to interpretation.

But, how would Richardson know? Well, I would think he knew from records or passed on info that RR was a COG base with a ZAX. Would he know for sure it was still working? Prolly not, but he would know it was functioning pre-war and that it was there.

Also, here is a fact. Not every single member of the Enclave know what is going on. Gannon, the old folks in NV, do not know everything. This is just the way groups work. Things are a need to know basis, and they don't need to know.

For example, even Richardson looks down upon other Enclave. Lets even say ge knows there are other Enclave. Why would he say anything? His plan is to wipe everyone out, and he gets people on the rig to go along with his whole purification thing. But if he tells everyone there are actually other Enclave alive in other parts of the country, this can create opposition within the rig and his plan.

But I don't think he does know one way or the other because lack of communications and nor does he care.

Sebor: a ZAX would be a very important piece of pre-war tech.

Communications are almost non-existant. This is why Enclave are not communicating with another, because no long range comm. This is also why Eden is clueless about what happened out west with the FEV or why the EC Enclave are clueless about the fate of Navarro.

Btw you can make fun of robot couriers all you want, but that is what Ed-E basically is, and the military and scientific researchers in todays world send in unmanned devices of one form or another to scout and gather info.

Seeing how in FO there are robots galore, why not? They don't need food, are immune to radiation, and they can't be interrogated. Pretty solid method of sending or receiving classified info, in a nuclear wasteland.

» Thu May 03, 2012 11:57 pm

" That and its made clear in Fallout 2 that the Oil Rig was the only manned Enclave base until they built Navarro. That Navarro was the only base built after the war, so only one built between 2077 to 2241.

That and the Enclave remnants in New Vegas tell us that after the Rig the people of Navarro split, Some going to Raven Rock, the other staying at Navarro. Navarro later fell to NCR. So if there were other Enclave bases in the West. We would have learned about them by now. The remnants in New Vegas would not have been sitting around in shacks. They would have gone to one of the other bases.

Fallout 3 game guide tells us the Enclave in Fallout 3 came from the west which is confirmed in New Vegas."

Not mentioning other bases does not mean it does not exist. They don't mention Megaton in FO2, or Chicago in FO2, or New York, or Caesars Legion, or hardly anything at all outside of the game area.

Why? Because this makes sense. There was a NUCLEAR WAR. It is completely logical that following a nuclear war, you will know nothing except your immediate area. In fact, the average survivor probably would be lucky to know what was going on 5 miles away, let alone 3000.

The rig Enclave only know about themselves.

I never said the west coast Enclave didn't move east, I said it is pure speculation the info behind Chicago.

As far as Eden I have said this time and time again. I know his function pre-war. Once the bombs dropped, that is a totally different story.

If you want to talk about twisting canon to support your arguements then you should read your own posts. Because you say things like they are fact, when it is actually open to speculation.

For example "only Enclave were on Rig and Navarro, cuz that is all we see in FO2". Well, if the FO2 game map was the entire USA, then I would agree. But, it is not, it one section of the USA and portions of 2 out of 50 states.

This isn't a question of right or wrong, it is merely discussion about a game, so relax.

Trust me, some of these people are not permeable to logic. I've tried before. Not even sure they realize it's a game.

» Fri May 04, 2012 9:08 am

Well. The thing is there is no hard evidence either way.

"But the Enclave suffered two major defeats".

Okay. Just remember this only two locations of a large map, talking about an organization that was very powerful.

Where are the Enclave civilians? The kids and politician type? All we see in FO3 are soldiers and scientists.

Now I don't think there are a million Enclave ready to swoop in and take over. But I do think they can play a role and perhaps turn the tide. I would just hope we see a different ideology apart from kill the impure, which kind of started with Autumn in FO3.

Plus they are a great source for learning pre-war lore.

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:46 am

Where are the Enclave civilians?

Dead, when the rig blew.

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:18 am

Dead, when the rig blew.

Ya really? So for 50 years they decide to no longer reproduce. Why it makes so much sense now.

» Fri May 04, 2012 9:31 am

Sebor: a ZAX would be a very important piece of pre-war tech.

Communications are almost non-existant. This is why Enclave are not communicating with another, because no long range comm. This is also why Eden is clueless about what happened out west with the FEV or why the EC Enclave are clueless about the fate of Navarro.

Btw you can make fun of robot couriers all you want, but that is what Ed-E basically is, and the military and scientific researchers in todays world send in unmanned devices of one form or another to scout and gather info.

Seeing how in FO there are robots galore, why not? They don't need food, are immune to radiation, and they can't be interrogated. Pretty solid method of sending or receiving classified info, in a nuclear wasteland.

A ZAX would be but after such a catastrophic event (the Oil Rig blowing up) wouldn't regaining numbers be much higher on the priorites list than having a fancy computer?

Then how did Eden watch them head east to Raven Rock?

Well. The thing is there is no hard evidence either way.

"But the Enclave suffered two major defeats".

Okay. Just remember this only two locations of a large map, talking about an organization that was very powerful.

Where are the Enclave civilians? The kids and politician type? All we see in FO3 are soldiers and scientists.

Now I don't think there are a million Enclave ready to swoop in and take over. But I do think they can play a role and perhaps turn the tide. I would just hope we see a different ideology apart from kill the impure, which kind of started with Autumn in FO3.

Plus they are a great source for learning pre-war lore.

The Enclave are weak and I do not believe we saw all of Raven Rock, just the holding cells, the soldiers' cafeteria, and the higher up soldiers' offices.

And one of your main arguements is that they had no communication with anywhere else, if not then how could they be sure Raven Rock hadn't been nuked to nothing? That's a huge gamble, crossing the country to get to a base that may be just a hole in the ground.

If there were other bases that had communication systems where they could ask them if they're still alive once they get within a certain range then they wouldn't have taken such a gamble, now would they?

» Thu May 03, 2012 7:57 pm

The Enclave are weak and I do not believe we saw all of Raven Rock, just the holding cells, the soldiers' cafeteria, and the higher up soldiers' offices.

Indeed. There is a door that seals off which presumably lead to the rest of the (much larger) section of Raven Rock. After all, we only physically see 8 beds in the "explorable" area.

This is also where I would guess the "civilian" quarters were.

Where are the Enclave civilians? The kids and politician type? All we see in FO3 are soldiers and scientists.

Where are all the BOS kids at the Citadel? Where are all the Mojave BOS children at hidden valley?

Simply because we don't see them, doesn't mean that they aren't there or in a different location, it means they weren't put in the game because it was (A.) unnecessary because its implied and its a game or (B.) Controversial: I guarantee there would be some complaints if the Raven Rock destruction scene had shown Enclave children running all over the place crying for help as the place exploded.

And one of your main arguements is that they had no communication with anywhere else, if not then how could they be sure Raven Rock hadn't been nuked to nothing? That's a huge gamble, crossing the country to get to a base that may be just a hole in the ground.

My argument exactly. Something had to occur in which either Richardson was able to detect the viability of Eden and Raven Rock, or Eden was able to monitor the situation in the west and assume command when the Rig fell.

One of these two things had to happen, there is no way around it. A president gave the order, that much we know. So it was a conscious decision by the leadership, be that Eden or Richardson. One of them had to have been in contact with the other in some manner.

» Thu May 03, 2012 7:38 pm

Eden didn't watch the Enclave cone east. He says in years folliwing the war he watched the remnants of govt go to west coast.

Eden a comp, and at that time he hadn't achieved his freat awakening. I think it is a figure of speech. Survivors were in RR and they decided to go west. What became of them, who knows. Eden cannot possibly know.

A contigency plan is always a gamble, and it means your main plan has failed, so now you have nothing more to lose. Obviously, they felt having a ZAX would help them rebuild.

I would have to look up comm again, but my guess would be under best circumstances they would have a 150 mile range for comm.

Maybe they did pick up a signal from Chicago and that is why they went there.

Seeing how they stopped at Chicago, how about they left their kids and civilians there? You don't bring your kids to the front lines.

RR is the Enclaves front lines in the CW.