Enclave Return Part 2 : Fallout Series Discussion

» Fri May 04, 2012 8:17 am

It's times like these that make me hate freedom of speech.

Seriously EvilBastrd, what's the goal here?

Let me ask you somthing.
How do you honestly see Enclave returining(again) in future Fallout games?
I've read all your posts, and while your very quick to spit out "facts", not once have you laid out an idea that shows how it would work in game.

Do you really want to see them return? Or do you just want to argue about it?

» Fri May 04, 2012 4:17 am

And would not all CoG bases be a part of that plan? RR is a real thing, you do lnow this, right? It is, just like in the game, a CoG base. There are 5 or 6 other CoG bases, that we know of, and who knows how many top secret ones. With all the vaults being built, and the heightened sense that nuclear war could be imminent, common sense dictates that there would be more CoG bases and bunkers, etc than exist in the real world.

All of those bases and CoG facilities were pointless, unless they were used. You want me to believe that the govt and corporations and the Enclave had these measures to survive the nuclear war and DID NOT USE THEM???? Hey lets build all this stuff, and NOT use it, except the rig and RR... That not only doesn't make sense, but downright silly.

Alright this is my last post here and then I'm done.

First off, no-one is claiming that they didn't use a variety of bases pre-war and in the immediate aftermath of the war. Eden in fact, confirms it.

It is indeed logical that these bases would have been used. Not disputing that. My disputation comes with the assertion that any one of these bases are still operational and that the individuals within them never left even after 200 years, despite having lost supposed contact with National Command Authority.

We have zero proof that any of these bases exist and are operational under Enclave personnel. There is no mention of them and canon says nothing about there existance post-war. We have only Eden's quote that a general withdraw to the west coast occured.

So until you can provide evidence of these bases continued existence and operation by Enclave personnel, your ideas aren't supported by canon. Plain and simple. End of story.

Then you want me to believe that if there were other Enclave, they left their shelter, trekked across the wasteland, with destroyed infrastructure, radiation, radioactive critters, then if they somehow survived all that, to find a boat with the capabilities to sail the ocean, and find a rig???? Heck, I didn't realize all Enclave were master sailors and I forgot these ships would be all over the place following a nuclear war.

Oh so planes and helicopters suddenly stopped working immediately after the great war now? They suddenly just drop out of the sky?

There are more ways for the remnants of the government to retreat from the west than by simply walking. If this is your only way to say "no they couldn't have rallied on the Rig" think of something better. It has no merit to it.

Furthermore it makes sense for a general order of rally to have occurred after the worst of the Great War had subsided. "Decades following the war." Separation and spreading out during a national catastrophe is indeed a good strategy. But at some point you need to rally your forces and procede with post-war operations. You aren't going to get anything done with your leadership and forces spread out across the continental United States.

And you say I make no sense and my ideas are a wild conspiracy theory... LoL.

Provide your own solid evidence and proof us wrong then. Please.

Oh and not to mention that as soon as they magically made this cross country journey, they are assassinated. Thanks for making it here, but you are no longer a pure human. Bang.

What?

What are you talking about?

Eden would only know about DC area, and their fate would be unknown to him, just like he has no clue about the fate of Navarro or FEV.

It is never stated whether the fate of Navarro is known or not, and you have absolutely no idea about the range of Eden's communication capabilities. Once again (and for the last time) someone on the Rig was in some sort of contact with Raven Rock, else-wise the order to move east following the Rig's destruction would not have been given. Unless you are claiming that the Navarro garrison decided to head to Raven Rock of their own accord. Which, funny enough, contradicts your ideas about post-war operational bases. Why would they not just go to the nearest last-known location of one of these "bases" if they did indeed exist and the soldiers were simply leaving out on their own?

Furthermore Eden only states that he never heard word of the success of the "project." There aren't many who know how exactly the Rig was destroyed. Therefore, the Enclave soldiery and Eden were unable to determine immediately whether or not the FEV was released before the Rig was destroyed. That's what that quote refers to.

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:10 am

It's times like these that make me hate freedom of speech.

Seriously EvilBastrd, what's the goal here?

Let me ask you somthing.
How do you honestly see Enclave returining(again) in future Fallout games?
I've read all your posts, and while your very quick to spit out "facts", not once have you laid out an idea that shows how it would work in game.

Do you really want to see them return? Or do you just want to argue about it?

This was my idea awhile back.

Spoiler

2069: The president of the mid-west Poseidon Energy corporate headquarters(main offices in Chicago), Thomas Johnston, who is also a member of a secret organization called The Enclave, oversees the construction of a Poseidon Corp Vault. The Vault P5, codenamed Olympus, is to be constructed in Michigan City, Indiana, east of Chicago. For Poseidon purposes this vault is to serve as a research facility. For Johnston, this vault is to serve as a research facility under full control of the Enclave.

Nov 2070: 22 year old special forces Lieutenant John Bullock is medivaced state side from Alaska following an intense 3 day battle. Recognized by those he served with as a hero, it is rumored he single-handedly killed over 100 Chinese soldiers.

Jan 2071: Bullock, still recovering from injuries, is awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor by the President of the United States.

Summer 2071: Recovered from his injuries, Bullock is deemed an important propaganda source for the war effort. Instead of being sent back to the front, he is now a spokesman for selling war bonds. Members of the Enclave take notice, in particularly, Johnston.

Fall 2071: During a complimentary stay at the Lucky 38 casino in Las Vegas, Bullock is approached by Thomas Johnston, Illinois Senator Quinton Haley, and Colonel Bud "Buzz" Anderson. All three men are members of The Enclave, attempting to recruit Bullock and appealing to his patriotism. Johnston offers Bullock a job as head of security at the mid-west Poseidon HQ in Chicago, with basic details on the Olympus project and his transfer to that facility when construction is complete.

Spring 2072: Bullock takes over as head of security at Poseidon Chicago.

July 2072: Poseidon researcher Stanley Baker is found dead in his Chicago suburb home, identification confirmed by his fingerprints, as his head had been completely blown off. Meanwhile corporate espionage is reported as non-existant in inner office Poseidon Chicago security report.

Summer 2072: Bullock, with assistance from Anderson and other Enclave military personnel, begin hand picking recruits to compose Bullock's security team. Drawing from the special forces of the Army and Marines, this team will eventually become an elite Enclave strike team. On the "records" they are merely a Poseidon Energy security force.

Dec 2073: Vault P5, Olympus, is completed. Olympus can comfortably house 1000 people. It is composed of 6 levels, however the bottom 3 levels are hidden, accessed through a secret floor in the maintenance room on level 3.

Level 1: Security level. Offices. Snack room. Level 2: Living quarters. Recreation area. Cafeteria. Level 3: Head researchers living quarters. Security living quarters. Offices. Maintenance room. Reactor room. Level 4: Research lab devoted to armor and general research. Level 5: Research lab devoted to weapon technology. Level 6: Research lab devoted to a top secret project, codenamed Chronos. Backup reactor room.

The outward appearance of the facility is a Poseidon gas station with connected Super-Duper Mart.

Spring 2074: Olympus stocked with equipment and researchers loyal to the Enclave are picked by Johnston. While the facility is capable of housing families, the vast majority of researchers are single, chosen for security reasons. Bullock and his security team are transferred to Olympus, where he will take on the additional role of field testing weapons and armor. Director of the facility is Dr. William Taylor, designer and head researcher of the Chronos project.

Summer 2074: Research begins. In the ranks of The Enclave, Bullock is promoted to Captain.

October 2074: Poseidon researcher Brian Porter is reported missing, but presumed murdered when revealed that his Mister Handy had vacuumed up a large pile of ash off his living room floor.

October 2074: Bullock submits report on first field test of the prototype Hemera advanced laser rifle.

June 2075: A breakthrough in the Chronos project, following the first successful test on a chimpanzee. Sparky18 was successfully revived after 4 weeks of cryostasis.

August 2075: Sparky19 successfully revived after 3 months cryostasis.

November 2075: Bullock honored at a dinner function in San Francisco, commemorating the 5th anniversary of his heroics in Alaska. One of the attendees at this event is Captain Roger Maxson. The two meet and at one point have a private discussion on the war, trench warfare, and the volatile state of world affairs. Both leave the function impressed with the others natural leadership abilities.

February 2076: Sparky20 revived after 6 months. Dr. Taylor approves human testing.

March 2076: First human enters stasis. Mass production of cryo pods begins.

April 2076: First human revived after 1 month. Achilles Gauss Rifle prototype ready for field testing. The weapon is chambered for a 5mmEC caseless round, compared to the German 2mmEC model. The weapon magazine holds 20 rounds, and a microfusion cell will maintain enough power to fire 100 rounds, or 5 magazines, before it too must be reloaded.

May 2076: Hermes Mark II armor ready for field testing.

June 2076: Second human revived after 3 months. Nemesis Gauss pistol prototype created, likewise chambered for the 5mmEC.

September 2076: Third human revived after 6 months cryostasis.

October 2076: Erebos Stealth Armor research begins.

January 2077: Field testing of the Hermes Mark II armor complete, Bullock gives his notes and suggested adjustments to research technicians. These refinements lead to the production of Enclave Advanced Combat Armor, the standard issue armor for Bullock's security force.

March 2077: Fourth human revived after one year. Stage I testing of project Chronos complete. Olympus is now stocked with 1000 units.

March 2077: With increased Enclace awareness towards potential nuclear war, the Olympus facility goes on lock down. Only those with the highest security clearance are allowed to enter or leave. Johnston is one, who works at his office in Chicago during the week, but visits Olympus every weekend to go over reports with Dr. Taylor.

April 2077: With Achilles and Nemesis production well in hand, research focuses on Theia laser pistol, a Gauss light support weapon, and refinements to the Artemis light rail gun.

May 2077: Erebos Stealth Armor prototype created. Bullock has combat simulators installed on level 5 to help keep his troops sharp during the lock down.

June 2077: Bullock field tests Erebos, successfully breaking into nearby Poseidon power plant Eos and "stealing" all research data.

July 2077: Col. Anderson visits Olympus and is impressed with the Chronos technology. He requests 5 units to be sent to his personal bunker.

September 2077: Minor research into plasma weapons begins. Some suits of power armor arrive with technicians working towards improvements.

October 23 2077: 2 hours of Nuclear bombardment. Olympus survives. Luckily for Johnston this happened on a Saturday. The fates of Col. Anderson and Senator Haley are unknown.

October 25 2077: A meeting is held between Dr. Taylor, Johnston, and Bullock. The decision is made to place the entire facility, except a skeleton crew, in cryostasis for ten years.

» Thu May 03, 2012 9:05 pm

Alright this is my last post here and then I'm done.

First off, no-one is claiming that they didn't use a variety of bases pre-war and in the immediate aftermath of the war. Eden in fact, confirms it.

It is indeed logical that these bases would have been used. Not disputing that. My disputation comes with the assertion that any one of these bases are still operational and that the individuals within them never left even after 200 years, despite having lost supposed contact with National Command Authority.

We have zero proof that any of these bases exist and are operational under Enclave personnel. There is no mention of them and canon says nothing about there existance post-war. We have only Eden's quote that a general withdraw to the west coast occured.

So until you can provide evidence of these bases continued existence and operation by Enclave personnel, your ideas aren't supported by canon. Plain and simple. End of story.

First, you say the bases did exist, and would have been used, then you say no proof exist and operational. Seeing how the game only been in two areas of the USA, and the bases would be spread out, and thus not within the area of gameplay, it is impossible to prove one way or the other. This is where you just have to use common sense and logic.

Oh so planes and helicopters suddenly stopped working immediately after the great war now? They suddenly just drop out of the sky?

There are more ways for the remnants of the government to retreat from the west than by simply walking. If this is your only way to say "no they couldn't have rallied on the Rig" think of something better. It has no merit to it.

Yep. It called EMP. Even if vehicle was shielded from EMP, with the destroyed infrastructure, and fuel shortage, any running vehicle will have a short lifespan. Look at survivalist in Zion. His vehicle stopped. You aren't gonna run out into lethal radiation to secure a vehicle and fuel.

More examples? Ok. Radiation levels and poison were lethal for 5 years following the war.

Roger Maxson and BoS crew took several weeks to get from Mariposa to Lost Hills. These guys were military. Why so long, I'm sure they had vehicles. Cuz they didn't work, no fuel, or both. They also took severe casualties and these were trained soldiers.

So, you are in your bunker or vault and at least 5 years have gone by or longer, and you pop out to check things out. Fat chance of finding a working vehicle or fuel. The wasteland is stillhighly dangerous. No communication. Everyone else could be dead. I would say most people would secure their immediate area and rebuild from there. Maybe some tried to travel, but I would say success slim.

Furthermore it makes sense for a general order of rally to have occurred after the worst of the Great War had subsided. "Decades following the war." Separation and spreading out during a national catastrophe is indeed a good strategy. But at some point you need to rally your forces and procede with post-war operations. You aren't going to get anything done with your leadership and forces spread out across the continental United States.

And with all the chaos caused not only from the physical damage of the nukes, but the people who were not in a vault or shelter, even less of a chance to find a working vehicle to make it west. I'm kind of amazed that playing a game set in a post nuclear war setting how many seem to have no idea what the result of this war would cause.

It is never stated whether the fate of Navarro is known or not, and you have absolutely no idea about the range of Eden's communication capabilities. Once again (and for the last time) someone on the Rig was in some sort of contact with Raven Rock, else-wise the order to move east following the Rig's destruction would not have been given. Unless you are claiming that the Navarro garrison decided to head to Raven Rock of their own accord. Which, funny enough, contradicts your ideas about post-war operational bases. Why would they not just go to the nearest last-known location of one of these "bases" if they did indeed exist and the soldiers were simply leaving out on their own?

Furthermore Eden only states that he never heard word of the success of the "project." There aren't many who know how exactly the Rig was destroyed. Therefore, the Enclave soldiery and Eden were unable to determine immediately whether or not the FEV was released before the Rig was destroyed. That's what that quote refers to.

The dude who sends Ed-E to Navarro seems to show they have no clue about Navarro being lost.

I said no doubt that Richardson knows of RR existence and the fact it was equipped with a ZAX super computer, from Enclave records, and that is why he would send them.

I'm sure Richardson also knew of others, but the ZAX is what made RR more appealing to him.

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:38 pm

I just wanted to add. Just about every settlement in the game is formed right around the shelter they used to survive the war, or darn cloae to it. Very few people did much traveling. The reason being, it is extremely dangerous, even for soldiers, like the BoS. Most people want to live. Why would Enclave be any different? They are still human beings.

I never said they would remain in a bunker for 200 years. I'm sure when safe they would explore immediate area and prolly carry out operations.

I wouldn't be surprised if like Eden said some tried to go west. But I imagine once they saw what the world was like, they changed their mind.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:27 am

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231027/uncyclopedia/images/archive/1/11/20080202231407!Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

WHEN WILL IT END?? :cryvaultboy:

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:18 am

Yep. It called EMP. Even if vehicle was shielded from EMP, with the destroyed infrastructure, and fuel shortage, any running vehicle will have a short lifespan. Look at survivalist in Zion. His vehicle stopped. You aren't gonna run out into lethal radiation to secure a vehicle and fuel.

Any Government bunker worth its salt is going to be shielded against the effects of an EMP. Which includes a storage of vehicles (Raven Rock's hangers for instance). Thus, helicopters and possibly even aircraft would be perfectly viable when stored in these underground bunkers for the express purpose of transporting personnel.

A COG bunker isn't going to be viable at all if a nuclear detonation relatively nearby is going to be able to knock out all their electronic equipment which keeps the bunker alive.

More examples? Ok. Radiation levels and poison were lethal for 5 years following the war.

"In the decades following the war....I watched as the Remnants of the Government retreated to the west coast."

Sounds like they waited until the radiation levels had died down sufficiently.

And with all the chaos caused not only from the physical damage of the nukes, but the people who were not in a vault or shelter, even less of a chance to find a working vehicle to make it west. I'm kind of amazed that playing a game set in a post nuclear war setting how many seem to have no idea what the result of this war would cause.

And you seem to be under the impression that a Government contingency plan involves running to the nearest shelter haphazardly and having absolutely no ability to overcome any of the obstacles would which be caused by nuclear war and which would certainly be considered in the process of developing any sort of post-catastrophe operation.

The dude who sends Ed-E to Navarro seems to show they have no clue about Navarro being lost.

No, what it indicates is that Whitely doesn't know Navarro's been lost. It says nothing about the knowledge of Enclave high command.

I said no doubt that Richardson knows of RR existence and the fact it was equipped with a ZAX super computer, from Enclave records, and that is why he would send them.

And then just hope that Raven Rock wasn't destroyed or annihilated during the war and has been operational for 200 years? Why not try any one of the many facilities between Navarro in California and Raven Rock in DC?

Pre-war sure, he could have access to databanks outlaying what Raven Rock was. But he would (according to you) have no idea whether or not it was a viable fall-back point. Contact needs to have been made.

I'm sure Richardson also knew of others, but the ZAX is what made RR more appealing to him.

ZAX's aren't terribly unique. Eden states that many of them were placed in various government facilities to automate various processes. There's several places on the west coast which have a ZAX. NORAD (Cheyenne Mountain) has a ZAX in Fallout if you go by Tactics.

» Fri May 04, 2012 5:14 am

They gonna keep a transport airplane in a CoG bunker? Lol. Those need a airfield to take off from.

Besides vertibirds, ever see a helicopter in fo? I can't remember one

Even a transport helicopter is limited to the amount of people they could carry.

All these CoG bases had pilots in waiting?

Not all CoG bases would be equiped with vehicles.

Some may, but again, fuel becomes a problem. You make out like all these CoG bases are like GI Joe bases.

Yes, Margo is a ZAX I do believe. I'm just going by the game guide and trying to explain why RR. Game guide says RR cuz of ZAX, and because it the game guide it canon, so what more do you want?

Sooo.. Whitley. Well, we are in agreement that the Enclave command, including Richardson, would keep info from Enclave. I agree with that, which is why people like Gannon and Navarro people are clueless about other bases.

However, I would say reason they dontknow is because no long range comm. Too hard to keep a secret if communications are available.

And yes, contigency plan going to RR a gamble. It paid off. If it didn't they are smart, sure they would have figured something out.

When Roger left Mariposa for Lost Hills it was a gamble that paid off, too.

The nuclear war was a surprise attack was it not? It was also far worse than imagined. I think the first thought on there minds would be to get to shelter and survive. After that what do you expect them to do? Communications will be down. World dangerous. Wait 10 years or more and it business as usual?

Is it not a fact that bible and timeline supported what I'm saying? Now that it not official canon it makes this speculation a "wild conspiracy"? Nothing has changed, fo3 and nv added no canon that discredits the timeline and bible after fo2.

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:43 pm

They gonna keep a transport airplane in a CoG bunker? Lol. Those need a airfield to take off from.

1. Helicopters

2. Small aircraft

3. Specifically designed VTOL aircraft such as the Vertibird.

4. Airbases with viable aircraft.

All are possibilities.

Besides vertibirds, ever see a helicopter in fo? I can't remember one

Yes. They exist in the Fallout universe. There are hueys in tactics and various terminals mention their existence.

Even a transport helicopter is limited to the amount of people they could carry.

All these CoG bases had pilots in waiting?

Given that most government bunkers are outfitted to house thousands of individuals including military personell and operations plans detail the arrival and takeoff of aircraft transporting individuals into and out of these secure facilities. Yes.

Not all CoG bases would be equiped with vehicles.

No. Pretty much all would be outfitted with some ability to relocate/transport personnel safely and securely.

Some may, but again, fuel becomes a problem. You make out like all these CoG bases are like GI Joe bases.

.....

They are high tech military bases designed to ensure the continuation of the United States Government in the even of a national catastrophe and are outfitted with plenty of supplies.

In effect, they are "GI Joe bases." What do you think they are? They are likely even more advanced in the Fallout world. Given Raven Rock's ability to supply the Enclave armed forces with armament and vertibirds.

EDIT: Here's some interesting info about post-nuclear contingency operations. You may find it enlightening (copy and pasted):

Communication

Communication is vital during a catastrophic event. Military communication links are designed for extreme situations such as nuclear war and thus considered more "survivable" than civilian networks. The Defense Information Systems Agency is in charge of supporting command, control, communications, and information systems for the military and would support the NCA. It is assumed that the various bunkers and airplanes have been equipped with special communication equipment to survive a catastrophe.

See also: National Program Office
Internet - The Internet began as the ARPANET, a program funded by the U.S. military. The Internet is designed with the capability to withstand losses of large portions of the underlying networks, but due to the huge numbers of people using it, it would likely be jammed and unable to handle communication if it suffered a large amount of damage. During a localized emergency, it is highly useful. However, the loss of electrical power to an area can make accessing the Internet difficult or impossible.
Communications satellites - Basically immune to any ground catastrophe, it is expected that military communication satellites would provide the government with the ability to communicate in any situation other than one that includes a direct attack upon the satellites.
Homeland security takes over communications May 9, 2007
(16) The Secretary of Homeland Security shall: (h) As Executive Agent of the National Communications System, develop, implement, and maintain a comprehensive continuity communications architecture

The Continuity of Operations Plan involves numerous bunkers, special airplanes, and communication systems. Much of the information about them is classified, however information on various systems has been released by the government or described to the public by reporters and writers. Since many of the details are classified, the public information may be incorrect. Also they are subject to change without public notice so this list may not reflect current plans.

Not sure why I didn't post this earlier. It essentially blows your ideas on communication out of the water.

Yes, Margo is a ZAX I do believe. I'm just going by the game guide and trying to explain why RR. Game guide says RR cuz of ZAX, and because it the game guide it canon, so what more do you want?

M.A.R.Go.T. isn't a ZAX, for the record. She's a lower class AI.

What I want, is for you to recognize that the game guide specifically states that the troops went to Raven Rock because of its functioning ZAX, and that the functionality of Eden could only be determined prior to their exodus. Otherwise they literally were just setting out and hoping that Raven Rock wasn't bombed to hell.

The guide says "with a functioning ZAX" not "which may or may not have contained a functioning ZAX.

They knew before they left.

And yes, contigency plan going to RR a gamble.

Seems more logical to take a gamble with a closer military base. Why didn't they just go to the many that you think apparently exist?

When Roger left Mariposa for Lost Hills it was a gamble that paid off, too.

Not really. He sent a scout out to ensure that the area was clear.

The nuclear war was a surprise attack was it not? It was also far worse than imagined. I think the first thought on there minds would be to get to shelter and survive. After that what do you expect them to do? Communications will be down. World dangerous. Wait 10 years or more and it business as usual?

Yep. 10 years would be more than enough time to organize a coordinated rally effort for the purpose of rebuilding and reorganizing.

Is it not a fact that bible and timeline supported what I'm saying?

Nope. The Bible and/or timeline says nothing of any manned Enclave bases post-war besides what we've seen. Pre-war? Yes, but we've already established that there already were pre-war bunkers. That's a given.

Assuming the line "around the world" is true for a moment, then any remnants of those poor bastards who got stuck in Europe or any other god-forsaken post-war place, are likely no longer Enclave. Descendants of U.S. military personnel maybe, but not the Enclave as an organization anymore.

However, the line has been declared non-canon so it is (again) a moot point.

Just like those who left Vault 15 and founded their own nations are no longer "Vault 15 dwellers."

» Fri May 04, 2012 5:51 am

Don't confuse communications capabilities as a result of conventional warfare to that of nuclear war.

I can't remember the exact number, but in speculation theory on the effects of nuclear war it is estimated 50-70%
of satellites(the thing used for comm) would be destroyed during a nuclear war. I looked this up before and posted it. And I'm fairly certain it was 70%.

Do you live in the USA? You do realize that we only have like 80 something blackhawk helicopters? That is just an example to show we don't have unlimited amounts of these things sitting around, and in time of war, most of that stuff is in the field.

I have never been in a CoG bunker, as they are top secret. How many people they can hold and their transportation abilities is a guess, for either of us. But, a nuclear war is the ultimate test of their abilities. There is no way to test functionality.

I will also say this. If they had all these choppers and planes and working vehicles, why didn't the Enclave go ahead and "reclaim" the USA way earlier? Why do we never see any of these working vehicles? If they had the means to easily fly cross country like you suggest, then they would easily be able to start rebuilding, taking over, etc etc or whatever else all these leaders and troops wanted to do.

But they didn't. So all these choppers, planes, leaders and troops converge out west.....and do nothing for 77 years or whatever. Seems strange with all this working equipment.

As far as the ZAX, again, I take it as only Enclave base with a functioning ZAX in regards that the ZAX was there and operational pre-war and they or at least Richardson knew it was there.

I just don't believe there is any long range comm, all comm in game has been short range, and nobody seems to know much about what going on in other parts of the country.

Btw, Rogers scout only checked the immediate area for radiation. He did not scout all the way to Lost Hills. Seeing how they took severe casualties getting there, it was not a safe trip and a gamble.

IMO, the CoG plan did not work as planned. If it did, they wouldn't have waited so long, and have to build vertibirds when they already had the people and gear to do it after the big "meet up".

And why do I think it failed? Because I don't think the big meet up ever happened and all this gear you assume is gonna work didn't. Which is why the Enclave built vertibirds and did nothing else for all that time.

» Thu May 03, 2012 6:38 pm

More examples? Ok. Radiation levels and poison were lethal for 5 years following the war.

According to cold war PIFs and documents that would have been handed to citizens in the event of nuclear war becoming imminent, Radiation levels drop from "instantly lethal" to "okay for very short periods" after 2 days (, down to "Quite safe" after 2 weeks. I see the Enclave conspiracy (remembering the "Enclave" didn't exist yet) hunkering down in its immediate shelters for a short period of time, and then regrouping to a single base.

A useful rule-of-thumb is the "rule of sevens". This rule states that for every seven-fold increase in time following a fission detonation (starting at or after 1 hour), the radiation intensity decreases by a factor of 10. Thus after 7 hours, the residual fission radioactivity declines 90%, to one-tenth its level of 1 hour. After 7*7 hours (49 hours, approx. 2 days), the level drops again by 90%. After 7*2 days (2 weeks) it drops a further 90%; and so on for 14 weeks. The rule is accurate to 25% for the first two weeks, and is accurate to a factor of two for the first six months. After 6 months, the rate of decline becomes much more rapid. The rule of sevens corresponds to an approximate t^-1.2 scaling relationship.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq5.html

This paragraph was printed line for line in the fallout 1 manual - so no Science! arguments, its canon.

I will also say this. If they had all these choppers and planes and working vehicles, why didn't the Enclave go ahead and "reclaim" the USA way earlier? Why do we never see any of these working vehicles? If they had the means to easily fly cross country like you suggest, then they would easily be able to start rebuilding, taking over, etc etc or whatever else all these leaders and troops wanted to do.

The Enclave wasn't nearly as big as you think they were, how do you colonise a content with a handful of people?

» Thu May 03, 2012 9:20 pm

I took the 5 year time frame from the fo timeline.

Also remember the war was far worse than anyone predicted, also taken from the timeline.

That is your opinion on the Enclave not existing pre-war. Why you think that when again, the bible and fo2 developers clearly indicated otherwise, I don't know. I love how people love fo2, yet love to ignore all the lore that came after it from the very writers of fo2.

While it is no longer "official", nothing that happened in fo3 or nv disputes any of the early pre-war timeline that was in the bible. Vanburen stuff I can understand. Everything else, I do not.

Also, I said if they had this huge gathering and all this gear, they could have begun the "reclaiming" of America right away, not that they would accomplish it overnight..... but they did nothing....

Soooo the big CoG plan was to meet up and....wait...and die of old age out in the pacific.

Or, they never met up, cuz it was worse than imagined and the CoG plan failed., thus forcing the rig to do there own thing, build verts, etc.

» Thu May 03, 2012 11:52 pm

My bad. They do nothing for 150 years. Good CoG plan.

How many Enclave do you think there were btw?

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:23 pm

Enclave may or may not exist.

We have no evidence they don't exist.

We have no evidence they do exist

I personaly want them to exist, but I wouldn't mind if they're gone. (more RP'ing for me)

All you guys are doing is providing the same reasons over and over again.

» Thu May 03, 2012 8:42 pm

I took the 5 year time frame from the fo timeline.

Also remember the war was far worse than anyone predicted, also taken from the timeline.

That is your opinion on the Enclave not existing pre-war. Why you think that when again, the bible and fo2 developers clearly indicated otherwise, I don't know. I love how people love fo2, yet love to ignore all the lore that came after it from the very writers of fo2.

No they did not.

The "Enclave" did not exist, the "Enclave Conspiracy" that created "the Enclave" did. there wasn't this club where they all met in a building with a big sign that said "Keep out Top Secret Enclave". It was a few folks in power who made some plans.

"The Enclave" was not the official COG plan - I refer you to Vault Zero for proof of that.

There are three "Enclave"s if you like

The "Enclave Conspiracy" - the pre war group of people in important roles who decided to make their own plans to survive the war outside of the official COG plan.
The "Enclave Facility" - the Oil Rig
"The Enclave" the group that exists in the fallout timeline.

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:01 am

Don't confuse communications capabilities as a result of conventional warfare to that of nuclear war.

I didn't. Re-read please.

Communication is vital during a catastrophic event. Military communication links are designed for extreme situations such as nuclear war and thus considered more "survivable" than civilian networks. The Defense Information Systems Agency is in charge of supporting command, control, communications, and information systems for the military and would support the NCA. It is assumed that the various bunkers and airplanes have been equipped with special communication equipment to survive a catastrophe.

I can't remember the exact number, but in speculation theory on the effects of nuclear war it is estimated 50-70%
of satellites(the thing used for comm) would be destroyed during a nuclear war. I looked this up before and posted it. And I'm fairly certain it was 70%.

Unless there was coordinate efforts to knock out these satellites, they would not be affected from the nuclear war below them.

Do you live in the USA? You do realize that we only have like 80 something blackhawk helicopters? That is just an example to show we don't have unlimited amounts of these things sitting around, and in time of war, most of that stuff is in the field.

And would blackhawk helicopters be used to transport these individuals? Perhaps, but not necessarily. Any number of aircraft could be used. Many government bunkers have airstrips nearby for the express purpose of transporting individuals.

But they didn't. So all these choppers, planes, leaders and troops converge out west.....and do nothing for 77 years or whatever. Seems strange with all this working equipment.

The Pacific Fleet was ordered to the Oil Rig before the war began, and yet we don't see any remnants of that force now do we? The Oil for all these vehicles could not be maintained and they eventually fell out of disrepair after 200 years. Then they were likely scrapped for parts or simply destroyed. Seems likely that the raw materials used to produce vertibirds may have come from these aircraft.

And why do I think it failed? Because I don't think the big meet up ever happened and all this gear you assume is gonna work didn't. Which is why the Enclave built vertibirds and did nothing else for all that time.

They developed APA and various other technologies as well. They weren't just doing nothing.

How many Enclave do you think there were btw?

In Fallout 2 there were less than 1,200. Surviving members following the great war who were transported to the Oil Rig may have been less than that.

Look, Eden says that "remnants of the government" went west. Its canon, and you cannot disprove him by just saying "well it doesn't make sense if....." you are going to need hard evidence.

» Fri May 04, 2012 4:37 am

No they did not.

The "Enclave" did not exist, the "Enclave Conspiracy" that created "the Enclave" did. there wasn't this club where they all met in a building with a big sign that said "Keep out Top Secret Enclave". It was a few folks in power who made some plans.

"The Enclave" was not the official COG plan - I refer you to Vault Zero for proof of that.

There are three "Enclave"s if you like

The "Enclave Conspiracy" - the pre war group of people in important roles who decided to make their own plans to survive the war outside of the official COG plan.
The "Enclave Facility" - the Oil Rig
"The Enclave" the group that exists in the fallout timeline.

Just a few guys huh? So then when Avellone wrote the timeline, after FO2, and said things like Enclave siezed control of Hermes in attempt to turn it into spaceship to send Enclave off planet, or that Enclave spread out across the USA, which for some reason later changed to globally, and how Sen. Peterson, I believe, built a bunker with help from Enclave, this is all an imaginary group? Not to mention it is only 4 guys who happen to be super scientist soldier politicians rich.

If they were just regular dudes and not some secret shadow government, no reason to say Enclave did this. Rather: military and scientists sieze control of Hermes. Peterson builds a bunker with help from some nameless rich dudes. Bunch of ricjh folk decide to spread out into hiding across the USA.

Years later these rich dudes sitting staring at the floor and a light goes off over ones head.

"Hey Fred, bare with me a second...Enclave."
"What? The floor? Ya, I never got it either, Barney"
"No...Enclave...Call ourselves..Enclave!"
"Name ourselves after the floor? Yabba dabba dooooo!"

There is no point for CA to write about pre-war Enclave if they just regular govt and reg rich dudes, etc etc.

If you paid attention to the things Gannon said in FONV you would know Enclave doing stuff pre-war.

Oh.. and they thus copied their flag and emblem off a name on a floor, too.

» Fri May 04, 2012 8:59 am

There is no point for CA to write about pre-war Enclave if they just regular govt and reg rich dudes, etc etc.

Why? Why wouldn't there be? The "regular" pre-war united states government was ANYTHING but "regular." A post-war contingency operation can be defined as a "shadow government," the ones who step up to take power in the event of a major disaster.

» Fri May 04, 2012 5:31 am

There no way to field test effectiveness of any of that. It is all a guess.

You are talking Total Nuclear War. According to most, USA, China, USSR, everyone who had nukes launched.

They would have attacked everything.

We get to explore a lot of military installations in FO world, sooo military, not civilian comm, and it doesn't work.

Where you get the 1200 from, or is that a guess? Btw, I would guess more.

How many you think in CW?

The bh helicopter was just an example that we, USA, don't have unlimited amounts of military vehicles laying around.

I know they made verts and APA and weapons. But if it safe for them, and they have all these vehicles to make it to rig and rally, then their plan is to die of old age cuz the next 150 years is just make stuff. Why, when they have vehicles and weapons already and they can go ahead and hit the mainlabd cuz it safe enough to do so?

» Thu May 03, 2012 7:53 pm

Why? Why wouldn't there be? The "regular" pre-war united states government was ANYTHING but "regular." A post-war contingency operation can be defined as a "shadow government," the ones who step up to take power in the event of a major disaster.

And this regular govt finally decides on a name, and choose what Poseidon Energy put on the floor.

Or, how about Enclave was responsible for PE building the rig and putting that there, or after 150 years, they put it there.

All the stuff Gannon talks about and what was written about accomplished by a "small handful". No way. Small? Sure. Handful? No freaking way.

» Thu May 03, 2012 10:58 pm

There no way to field test effectiveness of any of that. It is all a guess.

Right. So stop acting like your ideas on total communication loss are a fact. Because they're not. I can pull out sources backing up the idea of some existing government communication lines just as much as you can pull out numbers and figures saying that total communication loss would occur.

(By the way, even if 70% of communication satellites went down, that's still enough surviving that could allow for some government coordination and communication)

Clearly your ideas about Sat-Comm being completely down are wrong. A damn wasteland ghoul is able to get into communication with a military satellite with just the use of a broken down comm-array. If she can do it, then I have no doubt in my mind that the Enclave has the capability to get into contact with any remaining communication satellites.

We get to explore a lot of military installations in FO world, sooo military, not civilian comm, and it doesn't work.

Poseidon-net=active

Satellite relay stations connected to Hercules Bradley and High-Water Trousers=active

Enclave communication relays=active

You're right, most communication is out. But not all of it. And any communication capabilities that still exist would certainly be in the hands of the Enclave, the remnants of the government.

Where you get the 1200 from, or is that a guess? Btw, I would guess more.

Not a guess really. Charles Curling details that 1000 individuals are aboard the Rig. Then we add a couple hundred or so for "Camp Navarro" and that's our figure.

How many you think in CW?

Between 300-500 I would guess. Someone counted up the total number of Enclave soldiers awhile back and came up with a figure of 274 or something around that. Add a few more for those we can't see and we get an approximation of 300-500 or so.

The bh helicopter was just an example that we, USA, don't have unlimited amounts of military vehicles laying around.

No but certainly on the eve of nuclear war (something the government had clearly been planning for) the highest priority for distribution of vehicles would have been Government COG sites.

I know they made verts and APA and weapons. But if it safe for them, and they have all these vehicles to make it to rig and rally, then their plan is to die of old age cuz the next 150 years is just make stuff.

What?

Its numbers that make a difference, not the amount of vehicles that are available. I would guess that the remnants of the government that survived to make it to the Oil Rig was no more than a few hundred or so. The Enclave is made up of the upper echelons of the government combined with an apparent security force, not the rank and file.

1,200 individuals is not going to make a dent on the vast numbers of wastelanders and mutants, hence the FEV plan.

And this regular govt finally decides on a name, and choose what Poseidon Energy put on the floor.

Played Fallout 2?

Not once do the "Enclave" identify themselves as "the Enclave." They only use the term "Enclave" when referring to the Control Station ENCLAVE Oil Rig. The only phase they use to describe themselves is the United States.

It wasn't until Fallout 3 that the Enclave personnel began to refer to themselves as such.

All the stuff Gannon talks about and what was written about accomplished by a "small handful". No way. Small? Sure. Handful? No freaking way.

What Gannon discusses is the development of plasma weaponry and the actions of the pre-war United States Government and Military Industrial Complex.

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:53 am

CA wrote in one of the Bibles the Enclave comnunication was functioning nowhere near optimal.

They could contact a couple vaults in the area and give the all clear, and obviously with Navarro, but it, and I believe correctly is not working good at all. Is there not another CoG facility on Pos Net that is listed as offline? That means they cannot communicate with it. If I'm not mistaken, that facility would be in western midwest, like the central timezone.

You still have not answered. Why in timeline and bible does it say Enclave did this and that? According to you a Rig is doing all this stuff eh? Or a handful of people doing all this clandestine stuff? Makes no sense.

Yes, 200 years after a war, a ghoul gets a sat array to work and contact a missile platform.

Prior to this ghoul, it did not work, and had no power.

The computer in I believe Fort Independence can also contact satellites, but it also fails.

But guess what? Enclave stuck on rig for 150 years, not cruising around trying to fix sat comms.

The fact that the farthest eastward CoG facility on PosNet tells me the farther you go, comm is gonna end.

I think numbers are way off on total Enclave. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 1000 civilians, but if that is supposed to be the civilian and military numbers, that is nothing. You have politicians, scientists, military, and civilians.

I would also say there are more than 500 in CW. Again, no kids or civilian types are seen, not that I think they are there anyway, so 300-500 soldiers and scientists not many.

Imo, I would say there were about 500 people on rig 2077. And nobody else showed up.

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:44 am

I'm going to use the "Southeast Commonwealth as an example" And this is straight from the Wiki: The Southeast commonwealth does not appear in any Fallout games. So, as far as we know, there's an entire thriving Enclave society there... or maybe there's a giant mutated frogman society. It may have sunk into the ocean. We don't have a clue. The only thing we do know is what has been released which is what makes "canon". It's a game, and a story of which the middle and ending haven't even been written yet.

» Fri May 04, 2012 2:55 am

The history of the Enclave is well known. There is no Enclave anywhere anymore but for Chicago and they got there after the events of Fallout 2.

If you want to ignore canon and believe in the idea that there are other Enclave groups around that have nothing to do with the Enclave we have seen in Fallout 2, Fallout 3 and New Vegas, then fine.

» Fri May 04, 2012 9:00 am

Alright. I'm out. I can't do this back and forth nonsense anymore. I should have gotten off when Styles and Sebor did. Its no use and there really isn't any point.

Believe what you want evlbastrd. But I'm going to continue to disagree with you and that's the end of that.

Cheers.