" That and its made clear in Fallout 2 that the Oil Rig was the only manned Enclave base until they built Navarro. That Navarro was the only base built after the war, so only one built between 2077 to 2241.

That and the Enclave remnants in New Vegas tell us that after the Rig the people of Navarro split, Some going to Raven Rock, the other staying at Navarro. Navarro later fell to NCR. So if there were other Enclave bases in the West. We would have learned about them by now. The remnants in New Vegas would not have been sitting around in shacks. They would have gone to one of the other bases.

Fallout 3 game guide tells us the Enclave in Fallout 3 came from the west which is confirmed in New Vegas."

Not mentioning other bases does not mean it does not exist. They don't mention Megaton in FO2, or Chicago in FO2, or New York, or Caesars Legion, or hardly anything at all outside of the game area.

Why? Because this makes sense. There was a NUCLEAR WAR. It is completely logical that following a nuclear war, you will know nothing except your immediate area. In fact, the average survivor probably would be lucky to know what was going on 5 miles away, let alone 3000.

The rig Enclave only know about themselves.

I never said the west coast Enclave didn't move east, I said it is pure speculation the info behind Chicago.

As far as Eden I have said this time and time again. I know his function pre-war. Once the bombs dropped, that is a totally different story.

If you want to talk about twisting canon to support your arguements then you should read your own posts. Because you say things like they are fact, when it is actually open to speculation.

For example "only Enclave were on Rig and Navarro, cuz that is all we see in FO2". Well, if the FO2 game map was the entire USA, then I would agree. But, it is not, it one section of the USA and portions of 2 out of 50 states.

This isn't a question of right or wrong, it is merely discussion about a game, so relax.

This is an argument that's been repeated time and time again evlbastrd. Our positions aren't going to change and neither are yours. Do we really need to dredge this out any more? Lets just let it be. Who really cares who's right anyway? Let each party believe they are and leave it at that. Ultimately the decision of what the next game(s) is going to entail is not up to us and our input is going to have zero to no effect on what transpires in the Bethesda development room.

Here's a summation of arguments as I see it:

You are saying that nothing in canon disproves your ideas about the Enclave having other bases. Technically, you're right, there is nothing point by point which lays out that the Enclave have nothing else besides Chicago left at this point. However (if I may say so) there is also absolutely nothing which proves your ideas to be correct. I have not seen a smidgen of evidence really that suggests anything other than Chicago exists currently, nor that the Enclave had any other bases during the events prior to and during Fallout 2 and Fallout 3. Aside from your own supposed "logical reasoning" regarding Nuclear War. Not trying to be a jerk in saying this, but the evidence just isn't there. And simply because it isn't mentioned doesn't make it right or plausible.

We can't 100% disprove it, but neither can you prove it. So we're at a logical impasse. What's the point in continuing then?

Regardless of canon, my feeling is that the Enclave have been defeated three times. From a purely literary standpoint it doesn't make any sense to bring them back again. At least not in any sort of force. Until we see proof to the contrary, there is no reason to believe that what we have seen so far isn't correct (ie. that the Enclave only had the Oil Rig, then Navarro, then Raven Rock, then Adams, then Chicago).

That's my feeling on it, that's what I'm sticking with. Believe what you want though.

As much as the vocal few of us have opinions on the Enclave, there are also others who enjoy the games and have opinions as well. Like I said, this is not about right or wrong, it is about discussing the game we all enjoy.

Even though you disagree with me, I still like reading the different ideas.

As far as any evidence, there are a few things that could imply I am correct in my belief of other bases, but that depends on your interpretation.

Seeing how I am of the belief the Enclave is powerful and intelligent, I interpret that to mean there were other bases and plans that we as players have yet to discover.

Here is a question: if in fo4 you came across a Enclave group about the size of say the mojave BoS, and they were handled as factions are in FONV, would you join them?

I would yes. Depending on how the group is handled though I may or may not be happy with it. I wouldn't really be happy for instance if this group were in any place other than Chicago (which I do hope they are there) but I would shrug and go on with it.


Present an argument, if you would on evidence you think supports this idea.

Not trying to be snarky. I just want to understand where you are coming from with all this.

I have presented this before.

But for example: FO3 game guide implies the order to move east came from Richardson, in the fact Autumn Sr was given order to go to RR as it was the only Enclave base with a functioning ZAX.

This implies there are other Enclave bases, but without ZAXs. It also means, if from Richardson, that he had contingency plan. This makes sense, because it doubtful anyone other than the CO and crew got off the Rig. Meaning Augustus Sr was sent before the rig blew, or had just recently took off, perhaps preparing for departure at Navarro when Rig blew.

Eden seems clueless as to the fate of the Rig. Again, this is how you want to interpret.

Richardson implies there were several plans for surviving the war, with the rig and vaults being a part of this plan. If it was just the rig and vaults, that is a couple, not a few or several.

Now, I know that the FO Bible is no longer canon, however, it was obviously the intent at the time that the Enclave did spread out pre-war.

Anyway, that is where I'm coming from, there could be more but I can't remember.

Everyone is wrong, IM right.
Blah blah blah, opinion opinion, fact, fan made fact.
Stupid this, gay that.

This is all I hear anymore.

Am I wrong if I say you're right? But I agree this thread should be closed.

Han't this topic been beaten to death many many times already?

Yes.

Not enough because new people come and want the Enclave everywhere as the typical bad guy in black armour.

The Enclave only became "The Enclave" because thats where they lived - the Oil Rig facility was called "Enclave"; The organisation that would become "The Enclave" was not known as this pre war, so any other "Enclave" base that wasn't in communication with the rig, by definition isn't "The Enclave", they would almost certainly have a different name and identity.

How long do we need to have this stupid debate. You are wrong evilbastrd. You are trying to use your opinion as fact. You are ignoring canon. You are using wild crazy conspiracy theories. "Well we don't know." We do know, you just don't play attention. It is simple as 1+1= 2. There is no debate.

Yeah we don't know much about the Enclave before October 23, 2077 but we know everything there is to know about them after October 24, 2077. How do we know? Because they told us everything we need to know!

What you think there are Enclave bunkers all acorss America, each with their own presidents of the United States of America? We know that isn't the case. We know all the facts and their history related to how many Enclave was and from that we know that there isn't many left now.

Got a call from Enclave HQ. They want the bickering to stop.

Look guys, it may have been round the bock a few times but there is still discussion in it. If you don't want to post in it - don't, if you consider the discussion done and dusted, fine, stay away. As long as a topic stays civil and constructive there are no problems but the minute people start flaming, being disrespectful of other members and their opinions, we will jump in from a great height - and it will hurt if we do that. OK?

Edit: Seems two of us are of the same opinion - don't invoke a third.

I don't want the Enclave to be the major bad guy or the dark power armor knights. Rather a faction like in FONV that you can join, kill, or ignore.


This is not accurate, from conversation with Richardson, and again, although no longer canon, the bible.

There are many reasons why Enclave is written on the rig. First, Poseidon Energy and Enclave clearly had dealings with one another. Second, if you don't want to believe the rig was built pre-war as a Enclave facility, they had 150 or how many years to modify the rig in any way they see fit.

Lastly, the Enclave symbol is clearly of pre-war design. The E surrounded by stars representing the commonwealths.


I don't think using in game conversations, fo3 guide, and logic and common sense is a wild conspiracy theory. Do I think there are 50 presidents? Probably not, but I do believe there are other Enclave who in the absence of communications probably setup their own leadership.

And thanks mods.

The group that became the Enclave existed pre-war whatever it was called. The goals of the current Enclave however are entirely post-war which is why a group that hasn't been in communication with the Rig for 200 years isn't really Enclave in anything but name which would be a pointless way to have them return. I mean according to the same Bible (which is no longer canon) and Van Buren the original goal of the Enclave was to evacuate the Earth completely. That would require communication with the Rig. So either these cut off Enclave detachments have been waiting two centuries in the blind hope that the Rig will finally locate them and tell them that plan is a go (which I think we can all agree is pretty dumb and again means their goals are not in line at all with the Enclave we have actually encountered) or they've long abandoned that plan, have new goals and therefore no longer have any affliliation with the pre-war Enclave and its objectives which means they're not even Enclave in name only anymore. They're ex-Enclave.

Or we're supposed to believe that these cut-off Enclave somehow developed an identical plan (well as identical as you can get given they don't know what FEV is) to retake the continental USA despite having no communication with the Rig which is pretty incredible. If you do want to introduce cut off Enclave detachments you could take them in so many new and far more interesting directions by adding new groups to the Fallout universe that evolved out of them rather than just saying "Hey the Enclave found some fresh guys so they're back! Again."

Well see this is where we differ. You identify the Enclave as rig only. Where I do not. You also only identify the Enclave, for some reason, with FEV, even though the FEV was only somewhat recently discovered by the Enclave before FO2.

You are correct though in that FEV is a post-war plan.

However, from my understanding of the timeline, the plan to evacuate the planet was abandoned by the Enclave, and imo, would only add further evidence the Enclave had many plans in action to survive the war.

I have said before, IMO, technically the Enclave on the rig is a splinter group. They isolated themselves. They had their own elections. In the end this basically cut them off from reality and some of them are basically insane while others are just following orders. The rig Enclave end up having a completely different set of goals than whatever the Enclave was pre-war.

We know very little about Enclave pre-war. But I would guess there goals circa 2077 would be survive the war, rebuild America. Those stuck on the rig twisted this into rebuilding America by killing everyone, and justified it with their warped ideas.

Say for example there was a Enclave vault in Ohio. They survive war and when time is right emerge and use their resources to build a community and help American citizens, because they are not crazy with cabin(rig) fever.

Look at the BoS. The BoS is a post war group originating out of pre-war soldiers. Post war, they have spread out and are now totally different from one another, but still BoS.

Enclave spread out pre-war and evolved from there. Yet, they would still be Enclave, regardless the difference in ideology.

From the fallout wiki:

Eden had originally been created to serve as a monitoring system for the Raven Rock military base, programmed to ensure continuity of government in the event of national catastrophe, and tasked with coordinating communications between the many Enclave installations scattered across the country.

This is also where you differ from established lore.

The Enclave picked the Oil Rig instead of outer space because it would act as a perfect bunker, it wouldn't be conspicious, and it would give them the possibility to one day retake America.

You are not making any sort of logical sense by saying that the Enclave that has been the ONLY Enclave in three games is a splinter faction? Wouldn't they have been found by their original group if they have traveled from California to Chicago to Washington DC?

It honestly sounds like something a B movie director pulls out of his ass to make a fifth movie for what should've just been a trilogy.


The Vault is not always right, which is the case here.

It is supposed to say military instillations scattered across the country if my memory is correct.

I am the one using ingame conversations, from Fallout 2, Fallout 3 and New Vegas as well as info from game guides. You are the one pulling stuff out of the air and passing it off as facts.

This all boils down to one thing with you. You don't like that the Enclave put all their eggs in one basket. Well to damn bad. Get used to it.

There are things in Fallout that you just have to take. Some examples. Liberty Prime. The giant pre-war robot built to push China out of Alaska. The entire united states army with all its resources ans wealth couldn't get it to work. Yet Lyons and his people with very few resources manage to get it to work? How did they pull that off? It doesn't make a damn bit of sense, yet we just have to live with it.

Broken Steel tells us the Enclave had the use of a space based weapon, yet they didn't use it till after they lost control of Project Purity. Yet we just have to live with it.
No matter what we do in Broken Steel, the Enclave get destroyed. Again doesn't make a damn bit of sense, yet we have to live with it.

So you don't like that the Enclave put all their eggs in one basket. svck it up and move on, because they did just that. There is a mountain of evidence to support what myself and others are saying. They were over confident to the point of arrogance and they paid the price for it.

Two games take place in same general area so of course they are the "same" Enclave.

Chicago is unknown. It is a guess it was forned by WC, and DC were sent east, possibly by Richardson.

Two game areas.

And yes, seeing how rig has absolutely no identity with pre-war Enclave, except the name, imo they are splinter group.

Just like all the BoS groups are different.

Chicago was most likely (was) built by the Enclave moving from Navarro to Raven Rock. It's role would be as a relay as we learned from ED-E in New Vegas.

Also it is an outpost(s) outpost doesn't mean huge military base. It means camp. The Enclave set up small camps in Chicago. Again when you follow all the evidence, it shows that Chicago was set up when the Enclave moved from Navarro to Raven Rock.

Given all the evidence we learned in Fallout 2 and Fallout 3 as well as Fallout New Vegas. This means Chicago outpost was not active till after the events of Fallout 2. So it isn't a pre-war base filled with Enclave.

There is a difference between (IMO) and canon. It may be your opinion that the Enclave aboard the Rig were a splinter group, but that does not make it so.

It is well established that the Oil Rig was the headquarters of the Enclave and their main base of operations for most of the post-war years. We have no evidence or even any reason to believe that they were a "splinter group" of a much larger Enclave faction. And frankly, even if you're right, it would be absolutely horrid writing on the part of whoever was to come up with the idea that the Enclave we have known this entire time hasn't been the "real" Enclave. It would be at this point that I would throw up my hands and lose the last shed of hope I have for Bethesda's writing abilities.

Most evidence points to the Enclave being the remnants of the United States Government in any case. The result of a continuity of government operation that included the military industrial complex. They were a "shadow government" whose purpose was to step up and take power following the result of a major national catastrophe as is what occurred with the great war.

Because the Enclave as a faction, in every Fallout game to date, has been a group dedicated to the extermination of mutants and reclamation of America and humanity itself. It's a fact that this was an ad-hoc goal developed many decades past the Great War however when the Enclave stumbled across FEV. So any Enclave who have been cut off from the Rig for 200 years would not share this goal nor were they part of the part of the Enclave command structure. In short they share nothing in common with the Enclave we know of beyond the fact that 200 years ago their descendants were part of the Enclave's organization. They're not Enclave in any recognizable form.


Yes if you accept its existence it was abandoned after the war which again proves that any of these out of touch Enclave splinter groups are no longer Enclave unless they've either been sitting around for two centuries waiting for the Oil Rig to get in touch with them (which is moronic). It makes a lot more sense that they've moved on and adopted new goals and ideologies that are probably not in line with the Enclave we know. Again they're not Enclave anymore unless you want to insist that every one of these splinter groups somehow independently came to the conclusion that everyone who's not them is genetically impure and must be exterminated which would be incredible to say the least.


So you accept that the Enclave we have actually encountered and who canonically exist have a completely different set of goals than the pre-war Enclave (whatever that exactly was). So you're not really talking about the return of the Enclave are you? You're asking for a new hypothetical Enclave which has little in common with the one we actually know beyond shared ancestry. Vault 15 had shared ancestry yet the people of Shady Sands, the Khans, the Vipers, and the Jackals aren't the same faction.


If that was the goal then why the Vault Experiments? Throwing away tens (hundreds?) of thousands of loyal citizens in massive social experiments that would be of little value to a group dedicated to rebuilding the world (as opposed to a group about to embark on a prolonged trip in sealed environment) is a pretty stupid way to rebuild America.


Right and this Enclave force in Ohio is nothing like the actual Enclave faction that we have actually encountered. Just like Lyons' BOS is not the same faction as the West Coast and they share little beyond a name. That was dumb enough let's not repeat that mistake with the Enclave. A new faction descended from the Enclave is not the return of the Enclave anymore than the Lyons' BOS in Fallout 3 was the return of the West Coast Brotherhood that we'd previously encountered. It was a new faction with minor ties. Just as these Enclave you want would be a new faction with minor ties.

Chicago is very well known to those who know lore and do not make it up. It is an Enclave Outpost that was established by the Enclave moving from California to Washington D.C.

I have decided to make a map showing you a few things in canon that make it impossible for the Enclave to be anywhere else.

Here it is: http://s1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa389/Sebor13/?action=view¤t=USAMap.png

The black represents the area where the Enclave has been, heard of, or their very ideals completely rejected in known canon.

The red represents the rough area where their bases where (not sure I'm exact with Navarro).

The blue represents the area that John Henry Eden's radio signal would have to cover to be able to contact Navarro. This makes it absolutely impossible for the Enclave to be a splinter faction or part of any bigger faction at all.

Just accept the facts and stop with this nonsense.