so this just hit me, in fallout 3 the enclave go from one coast to the other in that massive platform and i just have to ask, how did they not run into the midwest bos? i mean did they take the long way around them or go right though the middle of bos controlled territory? Is it one of those thing we aren't supposed to question?

The mobile crawler base from Broken Steel was already on the East Coast. Enclave when they left Navarro, there was not that many of them.

As for the Midwestern Brotherhood. How do we know they didn't come across the Midwestern Brotherhood? :shifty:

It was already there? I thought they used it to get to the east coast, if thats the case did they jusy fly a bunch of verti-birds or something? And true they could have run into them as well but wouldn't they have had diminished numbers then what you face?

Wouldn't they have bypassed most of the residents of middle America by using Vertibirds to soar above the ashy clouds?

Who says that what we saw wasn't diminished numbers?

(BtW Welcome Oh Enchanter Tim - sorry I have a quota of at least 2 Monty Python references per day).

Well thats why I'm asking , I was hoping to find out how so many enclave were able to just show up in D.C without nyone noticing a army of black power armor wearing men and women crossing the country and going into the leigons or BoS controlled areas

We don't know how they made it to DC or what way they took. We do know they stopped in Chicago. Midwestern Brotherhood started outside Chicago some 80+ years ago (they started in California but became independent in Chicago) in the Fallout Timeline.

Vertibirds can't fly thousands of miles. They have to stop something like every 300 miles to refuel and maintenance. Navarro did not have that many vertibirds. They could have walked out used Vertibirds making stops and salvaged from pre-war military bases.

So in the end i'm stuck with a few thoughts

1. The enclave are a group of BoS, that changed sides or took over the midwest BoS

2. They took a page out of the BoS book and hide while they regrouped and then left for D.C

3. Enclave clone troops

Thanks for the greeting agent c! its nice to be able to talk about fallout without the glares my friends give me (they don't play it as much as i do) lol

The Enclave are pre-war memebers of the American Government. They were a shadow government that had a base called the Enclave which was a giant Oil Rig off coast of San Francisco. Their base was destroyed in Fallout 2. Remnants moved to DC because they recieved a signal from Eden. Others stayed at a base called Navarro which later fell to NCR. Others gave up and tried to start new lives in NCR, only to be hunted by NCR and BoS.

The Brotherhood came from a base called Mariposa. They were originally an army unit stationed there but before the great war. The second in command, Roger Maxson led a rebellion against the scientists of Mariposa after they discovered what they were doing, which was making super mutants. First in command blew his brains out. Roger, killed the scientists and tried to let the outside world know what he and his men did. They got no responce and the great war started soon after. Roger and his men survived. He led them and their families to a place called Lost Hills. The Brotherhood of Steel formed soon after.

After the events of Fallout but before Fallout 2. People within the brothehood wanted change. They wanted wastelanders to be allowed into the Brothehood. The Elders could not make up their minds. Insted they sent thoses wanting change on a mission to follow the remnants of the Masters Army that were going east. They built airships, some worried they would run into a storm but the elders sent them anyways. They did run into a storm and some survivers found themselves outside of a city once known as Chicago. There they made their own brotherhood. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtXhuaTcohY.

Diminished numbers of Enclave? We say way to many in Fallout 3. Navarro did not have that many people. Some stayed and fought NCR, others gave up, which means only a fraction of the small number at Navarro went East.

Well that's unconstructive; clearly then if that doesn't explain the numbers then it can't be right. Here's a new idea, when the reactor alarm went off all of the Vertibirds at the ENCLAVE evacuated with as many people as possible. Let's assume that in preparation for the Project that the numbers at Navarro were increased as to prepare them for life on the mainland. Next let's assume that after the ENCLAVE was destroyed, hardly anybody left for a multitude of perfectly valid reasons:

1. Arcade was born in 2246 and even his childhood memories of Vertibirds, energy weapons and even exact quotes. So that what, 2249 at the most conservative estimate? Clearly there was some leadership and structure there.
2. Navarro must, therefore, have been self-sustaining.
3. It is a highly defensable fortress, according to the Enclave Communications Officer, "What are you talking about, your on the coast you have great defenses."
4. According the President Richardson himself, "It'd certainly paint me a picture of what life's like in that radioactive hell on the mainland." Therefore, we can assume that the government and the citizens largely unaware of mainland affairs.
5. Clearly even people who "Hated what the Enclave was doing" stayed at Navarro because of ties to people, the need to survive; even going by your "Everyone at Navarro deserted" idea then surely what would actually be more beneficial and easier would be if everyone stayed at Navarro out of a Powder Ganger like necessatey.

Actually, Im beginning to think the numbers in Fallout are not entirely unaccurate. (at the very least Im trying to reason the amount)

Lets assume that Elder Lyons expedition was fairly small, which seems to be the case. Perhaps 50-75 BOS soldiers made the trip to DC. Taking into account their recruitment policies and any births and the splintering of the Outcasts, their numbers would seem to be accurately represented. (maybe 200-300 or so)

Now lets look at the numbers of Enclave, how many total Enclave were there in Fallout 2, perhaps 2,500-3,000? Assuming around 300-500 of those soldiers were at navarro (which given its status as a main forward base is not implausible) and taking into account any soldiers who were able to escape the rig (via vertibird or what have you, which could be around 200-300 or so). You've got a force of around 500-700 soldiers making the trip east. They arrive and stay hidden in the east for around 30 years before they engage BOS, which gives time for another generation of Enclave soldiers to be born and grow up, prehaps 100-150. Which leaves us with around 600--800 soldiers. Which is double the number of troops the brotherhood has, which means that the numbers in Fallout 3 are not necessarily a completely inaccurate representation.

Uh-uh... there where at the most 100 people at Navarro. It's not what you'd call a big facility.

There is one problem with Enclave escaping the Rig. They were not inoculated and died from the Virus. I would also assume those in Power Armour would still die but their suits held the virus back for the 10 minutes from when virus gets set free to when the nuke goes off. Plus I did not see any Enclave trying to get away, all but that one squad that you have to convince to help you.

There are quotes that indicate the reactor alarm went off and that they all heard it, plus the release of the FEV within the ENCLAVE has not been confirmed.

Even if the Virus going off is not confirmed, the Enclave troops don't seem to make a run for it when the alarm goes off. Virus going off would explain when there were no none-military Enclave able to be president. If it was not let out there could have been members of Richardson's cabinet that made it out. Clearly they did not.

Apparently not. :shrug:

With Fallout 3 we see that there had to have been significantly more than previously thought. Besides 300-500 personel is the size of a small facility. The highschool in my hometown is that size.



That doesn't mean that nobody got out though.

Thing is old sport, Navarro is, to use it's proper title, Camp Navarro; ie, only a temporary staging area as opposed to a long-term facility.

300 to 500 at Navarro. Now lets say a 3rd stayed at Navarro. Another 3rd gave up and tried a new life in NCR only to be hunted down. So another 3rd goes to DC. That means only 100 to 166 people went to DC. Enclave don't recruit. So they have to go just by babies. I don't see how they could have boosted their numbers in just 35 years or so, that we see in Fallout 3.

Some could have escaped but I doubt alot did. I don't see the Enclave running for the escapes when the count down started. If the Virus went out and I believe it did. It would mean most of the Enclave on the rig died out right. Without the virus you woud have to fight the Enclave. The alarm to the Enclave on the rig could just have been seen as an attack alarm. Or they would have just waited for someone to fix it. I doubt they had fire alarm drills on the rig. I see it a couple times a year. Fire alarm goes off an everyone just sits their waiting for some to shut the damn thing off. Or worse yet they don't know what the alarm is for.

I still stand by my assertion that 300-500 personel is not an unreasonable number.

Whatever the case, we have to rationalize the numbers of Enclave in Fallout 3, if that means that Navarro becomes slightly bigger than orignally intended then so be it.



See the problem with saying that is that we see that 100-166 were not the numbers of the Enclave in Fallout 3, there were signifcantly larger amounts, so the the numbers you just gave (3rd stayed home, 3rd gave up etc.) are apparently incorrect. I gave you my statisics that I feel can help to rationalize Fallout 3 numbers, I don't think they are unrealistic.

I understand that you are disgruntled with Fallout 3's handling of Enclave numbers. But these facts must be confronted.

1. There are significant numbers of Enclave in Fallout 3.

2. We need to find a way to explain this.

So in order to confront these aspects you are faced with two choices.

1. you can sit down and refuse to accept any explantion that comes forth, and say "well there are alot of Enclave in Fallout 3....but thats not how it should be".

2. Or you can constructively work to rationalize the numbers and patch the percieved holes in canon.

I chose the latter.

I am willing to try to patch holes in canon in a logical way. Still there are at least a thousand Enclave in Fallout 3. I should not throw numbers out. Lets just say way more then in Fallout 2 outside of the Rig (Navarro).

We know that some stayed at Navarro. They had to have left a good size force to protect from the growing NCR. We know there is a good amount that simply gave up. There was even a guy in Fallout 3 that did, walked all the way to DC from Navarro. We also know that Remnants stopped in Chicago. If their is an outpost there we can assume at least a dozen was left behind there.

So the logical number I can think of is that less then 200 travelled to DC. Unless most of those 200 were women and a small number of men scoring around the clock for 35 years to make the number of new Enclave we see in Fallout 3.

That's a bit extreme isn't it? At least 1'000 in F3? I would curb my bets at 300.



We don't know that a 'good' amount gave up, I though we hammered this out yesterday? Why even leave people at Navarro? Obsidian did it to give the Enclave a true ending I imagine but that obviously isn't canonical; I would say that it must tie into keeping Eden's identity a secret.

Well cl wouldn t notice them because they would be dead before they raised their law mower blades. The U.S. is a really big place.

Lyons bos was suppose to find mid west bos, but failed. So says wiki

If you don t count them respawning there were less than 275 Enclave in fo3. They had like 13 check points with 4 or 5 guys. About 4 airdrops with 3 guys maybe 25 on the way to the purifier like 10 in the purifier. 8 when they raided the purifier. like 25 in raven rock, but some got away in vertibirds. I d say like 15 where prime got destroyed another 20 inside. and 35 at Adams

I d say there were 204 to 217 Enclave that didnt respawn in fo3 250 tops, but I don t think. Bos had way less than that.

In these games I count every guy I see as 10 men.

Like the battle of Hoover dam ll if you go buy the game 40 guys fought for 25min. Thats not what happened 175 000 guys fought up and down the river for months.

If you go by in game numbers everything will seem wrong. The games can t handle showing you 1000s or even 100s of men. It would freeze instantly

Ceasers camp has 25 guys? Sure, he has 100 000 men and keeps 25 at his base camp?

In game numbers are just wrong.