Psst guys, the remainder of the Enclave live in CANADA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is also the crashed Vertibird in New Vegas, which unless it is a pre-war prototype of some kind (which I don't believe it is) means that they made it to the Mojave region or that they passed through there on the way to the East.

wher dos it say they dont have?

Well, where does it say that the Enclave aren't all humanoid robots? Hmmm? You can't just throw out any theory and then claim it as true just because there isn't anything specific that says "X didn't happen". We're going by what we've seen and know to be a fact, which is that we have absolutely no evidence of a navy, thus we must assume that they did not have one. Which is backed up by the fact that they used Vertibirds as their form of transport.

yes correct, but what i was saying its that its nothing in the lore we know to day that prevents them from implement it...

Technically since its a game, there's nothing really that stops them from implementing anything. We just hope that they keep to established lore.

Since the Enclave didn't have a Navy at the hight of their power, why in God's name would they have a navy when they are all but destroyed and nothing but remnants. It isn't enough just to have ships, they need to have naval yards to dock and re-supply those ships.

Lt.Andronicus pointed out you can't use just make up theories and claim they are true simply because the game doesn't say it isn't the case, there is nothing that says they have a navy but there is a lot of evidence to show that they don't.

You guys are gonna make Styles break stuff and get angry... you won't like him when he angry. He morphs into a giant green vault boy after stubbing his toe on a spare water chip.

STYLES SMASH!

It was only 500 or so from LA, and I thought Navvaro was there, but Navarro is north of San Fransisco, which is 1000. Was just trying to correct the distances, btu turns out I was wrong.

And if Vertibirds can only go 175 miles, that means the Enclave would need a multiude of bases built to cross America, and a handful in order to even patrol the Core Region.

But why would you need a dock to re-supply the ships. We have ships to day that can be resupplied by helicopters and dont have to go to dock to restock the stores. So the Enclave could use the vertibirds to resupply any ships if they had any. The only reason for a naval yard would be for ship repairs but odds are they would have the tech to repair ships without the need for naval yards, hell we have had a thing called a floating dry dock for almost 100 years now.

I just think its weird to put your foot down and say the Enclave never had a navy and then go on to the point of implying to now say that they had a navy at one time wouldnt be lore friendly. We havent heard the full story yet and learn more of the story with every game. Then to say that there is evidence that they dont or never did have a navy is still making assumptions cause all of the stories we have covered took place on land. Its more logical to take a vertibird from the rig to the main land since its a hell of a lot quicker than going by boat. But for longer trips ships would be needed and we have ships that exsist so whos to say that more ships dont still exsist in working order.

This is what makes tv shows like Star Trek survive so long is that they dont tell all the history at once which allows future producers and script writers to have some area to play with and have some fun. I kind of like to believe this is why we dont know everything that went on in pre war america or very early post war america all in the name of allowing future developers the chance to have some "fun" with the future games.

So in my opinion did the Enclave have a navy? I couldnt say. But I sure as hell dont buy them putting all their eggs in one basket, ie the oil rig when it would be a hell of a lot smarter to have a isolated base for your top officals and you get by through communication. Like for example we dont put the President and the Vice President in the same bug out bunker. We have two seperate ones seperated by many miles just incase one goes the redundancy of the idea allows the chain of command to survive. If the enclave didnt thought this part out and still put all their high up officals on the oil rig, well then I have to say they deserved to be eradicated and wiped clean out of the history of post war america.

Once again, Eden states that in during the war, the Enclave most certainly did not have "all their eggs in one basket."

"My terminal was tasked with overseeing the functions of this facility and acting as a relay between this facility and other installations around the country. In the decades following the war, I watched as the remnants of the government retreated to the West Coast."

In other words, the United States Government had various COG bunkers located across the country, and following the war, these officials eventually rallied on the Rig.

Putting "all your eggs in one basket" is indeed a silly plan. Which is why the Enclave didn't do it. However at some point, especially with so low a population, you have to reorganize and begin the process of governing again.

The United States Government only secures one individual as a "designated survivor" when there are times when the line of succession is organized into one area (such as at a joint session of Congress). This member would be tasked with the presidency should the line be shattered in a catastrophic event (such as the destruction of the capital during a joint session, similar in other words, to what occurred with the Rig).

Who was the designated survivor for the Enclave on the rig? Eden. Eden was the only surviving member of Richardson's administration, because he was located at Raven Rock and thus the designated successor.

Autumn confirms:

"When the Enclave fell on the west coast, Eden was next-in line for the presidency."

A direct reference to the Presidential line of succession. Clearly Richardson had some sort of COG plan organized in the event that the Rig was destroyed, and that involved Eden.

Christ people, how many "eggs" do the Enclave need to have? They clearly didn't have all their eggs on the Oil Rig because they survived to the next damn game.

At some point the eggs have to run out.

I am not supporting the idea of keeping the Enclave around. I dont mind if their around as a major force or a small force. All I am voicing is they better have some bases that we come across in future games. I still think that the Enclave would have probably went as far west as Hawaii considering it is still part of the US and it would provide all they would need in the form of natural defenses as well as a large number of stock for ships if they were to ever repair any.

My point I was making wasnt that the Enclave did put all their eggs in one basket but I find it hard to believe that they would do that. Meaning I believe that there has to be other bases and bunkers that the Enclave had used or were using. This doesnt mean I want to see the Enclave in force, but it does mean I would sure love to come across abandoned bunkers sealed up since the Enclave left and you can learn some back story about the Enclave.

Now what I found real odd is that Eden as far as I remember, Eden proclaimed himself to be president after the incident at the rig. He already posed as a presidential advisor and with the death of the president and all other ranking members he proclaimed himself president by default and ralled the Enclave to Raven Rock. I just dont buy into Autumn being fully onboard with Eden being president. If he did he wouldnt have went to such great lengths to undermind his presidents authority. He started off doing that in private as Eden commented on and you find out that as your making your escape from Raven Rock that he starts to publically countermand his presidents orders. That doesnt sound like someone that believes that he is the rightful next in line in the chain of command to be president. Maybe he felt like he was the next in the chain of command and not some computer that wasnt even in the military. After all the President is the head of the military and it trickles down from there. If all politicans were to be killed off it would fall to the highest ranking military commander to take his place. But it would never get that far with how many political figures the government has.

According to Autumn, this was by right of being the next in line to the presidency via Presidential succession.

I also find it hard to believe that Autumn Sr. (the man who initially met Eden) would have just gone along with an AI claiming to be President if no damn good proof had been given by Eden.



"Posed as a president advisor?" I don't recall that ever being said that he "posed" as a presidential advisor. There are claims that he was one, but they are fairly speculative. The source is apparently a developer interview.


Welcome to the glorious world of Bethesda's piss poor writing. It doesn't make sense because that's how Bethesda wrote it. Yes, he defies Eden's command, yes it appears that he is in rebellion against Eden, and then he comes back at the purifier spouting his undying loyalty for his president and defending his legitimacy.

It seems to me that they were attempting to write Autumn as a loyal soldier who believed that his President was going down the wrong road so he attempted to "correct" that view. With the full intention that he would be serving his President and his country by making Eden see the error of his ways.

LW: "Why do this? Why give your loyalty to a machine?"

Autumn: "I am sworn to protect the Presidency, the chain of command must be upheld! I wouldn't expect you to understand."


Also if you'll notice, when Eden orders Autumn personally to leave the LW alone and go up to the control room, he relents and leaves the room, despite being only seconds away from attaining his long sought after goal of the activation of the purifier. He goes with only a slight bit of protest. He clearly has some recognition that Eden is his Commander-in-Chief.

Anyway this is all besides the point. My whole point is that the Enclave clearly didn't put "all their eggs in one basket," they survived to Fallout 3, Broken Steel, and then still we believe there to be something in Chicago.

Isn't that enough?


It wouldn't actually. The Presidential Line doesn't include any military figures. If we were to get down to the end of it, the jigs up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession

If the military assumes control of the government, the jigs up even moreso.

Ships need docks for repairs as well as resupply. Ships don't last forever on the ocean. They need to be repainted, repaired and resupplied with large amounts of food and materials.
There is also the factor of storms that would take their toll on ships. The Enclave only had one ship and that was left docked in San Francisco and made non-functional. Floating dry docks would have the same problems as ships.


It is just annoying that people can't face the fact that the Enclave as a faction are all but dead. Then they grasp at straws "well you can't prove they didn't have a navy" even though there is nothing to support that they did. Well you can't prove they weren't all robots that had a base on Mars but that doesn't mean they are robot martians. Everything about the Enclave we have learned up until this point shows they are all but dead as a faction. They don't have a navy and they don't have bases all over the America or the world.

Exactly.

We don't have to disprove a negative. We shouldn't have to come up with evidence which shows a theory, that doesn't have any evidence to back it up in the first place, is wrong.

Ships dont last for ever, but this is the kicker since this is a game and they have technology way more advance than what we have today while still maintaining that big bulky 1950`s/1960`s vacuum tube technology ideal, whos to say that they didnt improve paint or coatings for ships to last longer. Its hard to believe the one ship that was used to get to the rig was still operational and floating if others would be a total wreck. Then theres the river boat from FO3, that there would have long ago been on the bottom of the river. The same with the Chinese sub in point look out, the time it spent under water it should have long since filled with water but yet it was apparently just started to fill with water.

As far as floating dry docks goes, all they are is just a steel platform with ballast bags that can be inflated to lift the steel platform out of the water. They really dont float 24/7 they only float when you inflate the bladder with air after a ship has been tied to the bollards. Im pretty sure in the FO universe floating dry docks would be ten times better than what we used.

I agree that their dead as a faction with just small concentrations of Enclave forces in some areas. What I get at which is probably getting lost in all the support for seeing the Enclave survive and thrive is that I am just wanting to find abandoned bunkers that the Enclave used filled with documents and terminal messages that gives us more background on the day to day life of them. I could careless if they survive or not or even thrive. I just want to see what is logical and find bunkers that were used by the Enclave in their "glory" days.

That is what has me scratching my head is that I couldnt find personal bomb shelters built which people would have logically built as a way to attempt to survive especially if they couldnt get into one of those vaults. I dont know if its bethesda`s lack of logical ideas like this or if it stems further back to black isle with the orignals. I havent got too far into the orignals to know if there were any personal shelters built by families to try and ride out the storm if it came.

Well then I suppose I misinterpreted you, because that's exactly what I want as well. Styles has said it before too.

All those bunkers Eden implies existed could potentially be explored.

I am all for finding old bunkers and Enclave related tech from before the war and other activities they may have been up to such as the Vertibird bunker in Fallout New Vegas.

But if you don't care about seeing them coming back as a faction than why are you so passionate about this Enclave having a navy thing? "Well it's Fallout so things can be built to last forever" thing can't fly with everything. There is nothing to prove they had a Navy and as Lt. Andronicus pointed out we shouldn't have to disprove a negative anyways. Since there is nothing to prove it, why should we come up with ways to disprove it?

The Enclave might be close to being dead as a faction but I don't think we have to worry about not coming across remnants and their old bunkers and tech. They are still in Chicago with their outpost(s), scattered about in DC and old timers in California.

That is what I was meaning by how I find it hard to believe that all the enclave personel was on the oil rig. I kind of expect to come across bunkers abandoned preferably, and if real lucky locked up with some weapons to find. Could even do it like the musuem of technology in FO3 and have prototype weapons being refered to on terminals but the container they were stored in has been broken into and the item already removed.

But if those bunkers were sealed as the government fled west, could you imagine the kind of stories you could come up with to fill those bunkers with terminal entries or diary entries. There are too many holes in the FO time line in my book and I think the story needs to be fleshed out more with hard evidence and not pure speculation. Like President Richardson talking bout China launching first and then a reference to the China launch on terminals at Black Mountain. I dont remember the terminals clearly stating who, just refering to them as "they". That could be anyone from China down to Russia, or even one of the small European nation states.

As far as I am concerned there is evidence in FO2 to support other bases, regardless if you don't actually "see" them. You don't see all of the NCR, Legion, even BoS. But, it exists.

Anyway: range of a fully loaded Blackhawk Helicopter is about 370 miles.

Max range of a BH helicopter, fully loaded with 4 extra gas tanks, is 1300 miles.

Now, a BH isn't a Vertibird, but it gives an idea, roughly, that under a pretty good condition, a BH would have to refuel 3 times to cross America, with a max of 8-9 times, or more if a vert can't travel as far as a BH.

However, taking extra fuel means less of other stuff.

So, regardless if you take extra fuel, you will be refueling somewhere, that is hidden, or who is to say the fuel would be there? Rather unlikely, unless it hidden and probably a military type place, ie well defended with turrets/security.

Or other types of aircraft were used, planes and the like. Most COG bases have an airfield located relatively nearby. Could have disembarked on an area close to the Rig, and then were picked up for the remainder of the short trip via vertibird.

But the Enclave don't have blackhawk helicopters. "Well you can't prove that they don't" "Well you can't prove that they do" and we go in an endless circle.

I think most of us agree that there are Enclave remnants out there like in DC and Chicago. Most of us agree that there are bunkers and tech out there related to the Enclave that have been abandoned.

Edit: sorry didn't realise you weren't trying to say they have them.

Its not that passionate about the Enclave having a navy. I just dont make assumptions and since it hasnt been stated clearly yes they did or no they didnt, it can always change. In my book to say they didnt is just as much speculation as to say that they did. Its not that I am supporting that they have a navy currently, maybe I would be inclined to accept that they had a navy at one time, thinking very early post war. But aside from that I just was weighing on stating that I cant make assumptions saying they did or didnt just cause it doesnt "fit" or that it would go against lore. I havent seen anywheres in the lore where it said that they had no navy at all not early post war, and not late post war.

I think it would be best for me to put it like this. You go to the trouble of trying to disprove why the Enclave couldnt have a navy at some point and time. I could go to the trouble of trying to disprove why the Enclave could have a navy at some point and time. Its all opinion and assumptions being made off what we see and think. This topic wouldnt be sastified till we get an offical answer on what the lore is pertaining to this.

Well, on the built to last forever thing, the battleship missouri if it had constant power (which could be done in the fo universe) it would survive without human contact and maintaince for an estimated 400 years before decay would result in the battleship rotting from the top down. Storms would play a part as well, now given that we have this technology to preserve and prevent corrision of the iron hull in the water I would say it wouldnt be too far fetched to see it be done for a ship sitting 200 years. Its sort of like how we have paint that you can apply underwater to paint ship`s hulls without drydocking them. The technology could be created to exsist in the FO universe which if planned wouldnt be too far fetched.

They did have that one Tanker and we have seen it. They weren't using it. I don't think the devs have to go through every since possibility people can think of and say clearly no or yes to it all. At some point people just have to look at everything we have already learned and put things together for themselves. What we have learned is that by now they are all but dead. Yes I know you agree with that but the point is your argument can be used by people that think they are still a really stong, numerous and poweful faction.

I am all for finding abandoned bunkers or bunkers occupied by remnants, seeing Chicago outpost(s) finding computer terminals to find out more information about their past. Settle things such as debate about their origin. Were they a pre-war cabal that took over the Vaults and the American government? Or did the Enclave just sort of happened after the Great War?