I assumed that was just due to the way skills worked though. If a player was holding out for a perk that required 60 in some skill but gained a level at 59 in that skill it would be pretty stupid to force him to spend that perk point.

I guess they could do that again but it doesn't make any real sense with the way the system works in Fallout 4. There's no actual advantage to hoarding a point of perk/SPECIAL gain.

Well if it's like Skyrim I generally tired of a PC after I had maxed out all the skills I actually use. If my FO4 PC has all the abilities and perks maxed out that I use, and I don't feel like completely changing my play-style and role-play just because I can, I'll retire that PC and start a new one that using other perks.

Oh right, I forgot, gamers are stupid so they've streamlined skills for us with a much more simple perk system. My bad.

I don't know if serious or not...

I recall the EXACT same complaints in Fo3 and NV

"Ohh, this perk requires me to have 5 in perception, and 60 in small guns, but I didn't get enough skill point this level up to reach 60 small guns, so now I have to waste a perk point on a perk I didn't want!"

Unless they do something like Skyrim's dragonborn DLC where they make some kind of machine that lets you transfer perk points into something else, like how one could use dragon souls to reset the perks in a specific tree.

You could spend 10 perk points to raise a SPECIAL stat by one point or something.

I'm happy that we're continuing after the main quest, but the lack of level cap is something I'm not fond of.

Funny how much this is a matter of perspective.

I've been replaying FNV and am able to return to the Lucky 38 having completed my coup d'état, triggering the end game.

But as I know this will trigger the end, I'm now going to go and complete side-quests and the DLCs leaving the pending end hanging.

I can meta-game it because I know what's coming, but I would be annoyed to have the end spring on me because I had advanced that

plotline faster that I should have (and it's quite easy to do).

Which is a choice and can easily be ignored, if ya want. I actually liked that ability myself. Allows for what I call "character cleaning" (FYI: You made a mistake of choosing the wrong perk or simply don't like a specific perk or two).

To each their own, I suppose. I feel like I get a better experience when I HAVE to use everything at my disposal in order to survive and attain my goals. If I can just jog along at 50% capacity, the game isn't really doing a good job of challenging me.

While it's been confirmed as being open ended, which is good for the ones wanting that, I hope it doesn't mean that the "end" of the main quest is utterly insipid and lacklustre as is all too often the case in open ended games.

I tend to find that too many open ended games "main quest/storyline endings" leave me cold & unsatisfied, basically feeling Meh was that it !!!!!!. (this is why I'm a proponent of hard endings).

how quickly did it take you to max out all perks in skyrim?

Now realise you can't max out shooting by using a .22 on a supermutant and medic skill by throwing stim packs at him but have to kill him and then find another one.

The only time it made sense to play NV after the end was the Indy ending because there were mods which clean up the Mojave and I could see the great things I did to the Mojave.

The other questlines - too many drastic changes so I rolled with new characters.

Exactly, even a game like Dragon Age Inquisition did not show the effects of you saving the world. Now that could change this Tuesday but as of right now it doesn't. I haven't beaten Witcher 3 but it's probably more of the same although that game should show the long term effects of what you did, A Strength of CDProjeckt with their writing. Best case Scenario, Beth does something similar to Witcher 3 with sliders.

Hmm. Not sure how I feel about that. Certainly not overwhelmingly positive.

Personally, I felt that increasing the level cap in Fallout 3 was the mistake, rather than having one in the first place. But that's because it was a "gain X skill points/level" system, and having too many levels took away any need to balance what you picked. Also, the original perks (up to the "capstone" lv20 ones) were clearly balanced around 20 levels. Being able to level further, and take more of the fancy lv20 perks? Meh.

I also didn't have a problem with the fact that the game ended. Yes, the ending was poorly written, but that's a separate issue. Me, I just did the final quest, reloaded my previous save, and kept playing. There were no "OMG, can't keep playing!?!?!" issues.

One thing I desperately hope is that the super-over-leveling in FO4 is optional like in Skyrim - if you didn't want to partake in the whole Legendary thing, you didn't have to. If FO4 just keeps counting up your XP and giving you more & more levels, there'll be no way to avoid it. And that would svck.

Personally, I don't focus on the "leveling" as a central thing. Playing at the level cap, or with maxed out skills, is just fine for me. (Ex: my first play of Fallout 3, I hit the level cap before even getting to GNR. I finally got around to finishing the game at around 25 hours. I played that character another 50 hours beyond that, before making a new one. So, 60+ hours without allocating new skill points or perks. And that was fine with me. Honestly, I've never really understood the viewpoint of "I can't get more levels, why keep playing?")

I find THIS to be a DEFINITIVE difference between some gamers in the RPG genre. Some crave an absolute pay off at the end and others (like me) want the entertainment and thrill of the ride. I think this is the crux of the huge disparity between those that felt Broken Steel was a "cop out" by Bethesda and others that welcomed the freedom it opened up for them. It also explains much of why some fans of Mass Effect felt so betrayed by the ending and others (like myself) felt the game series was a joy and I could overlook the dismal final 10 minutes of the game.

This is just an excuse. If there are relevant perks there should never be an instance where you're forced to pick a perk that you don't want or need. That's not a flaw in the system, it's a flaw in the design by having random, worthless perks; easily avoidable.

Interesting. I like the journey, and I like having a story Conclude. I loved the three ME games... the reason I didn't like the ending (beyond the gaping plot holes) was that it felt like a giant "YOU LOSE!"/"$@(% You!", which was in glaring contrast to the previous 2.95 games worth of Heroic Space Opera that I'd played.

Just like I love exploring in Beth games, random wandering to find stuff... but I didn't have any problem with FO3 having an absolute "ending" because it didn't stop me from reloading & continuing to Just Wander.

I will have to say, if we are forced to pick a perk or Special, then the whole system will be fundamentally flawed. There is no ends or buts about it, it will be flawed. Hopefully like Skyrim, it will be optional to raise your perks or special otherwise it's more of the same and that's not what I want.

It has nothing to do with perks being random, or worthless, it has to deal with RP, and not every perk fitting into every RP. Regardless of if the perk is good statistically/mechanically or not.

Littlemike, in Fallout 3, Bethesda's decision to make the perks every level and that we were forced to pick a perk regardless of whether we wanted one or not, is what caused that issue.

Kiralyn2000, very true, although I've found that most of the play after ending fans loathe having to reload and still have the last mission/quest hanging over their characters heads, and just want the main questline out of the way asap, so they can get on with puttering around the gameworld to their hearts content.

Clearly you weren't paying attention. The FEV gave everyone in the wasteland diarrhea! Such a meaningful outcome!

As for the no ending, doesn't come as a surprise considering an ending was a huge complained in Fallout 3 that Bethesda changed with Broken Steel. Would make sense the same would be applied here. Although I found the fuss behind it rather silly considering you can just load a previous save unless you care that much about "muh immersion", and even then such immersion already required a degree of imagination already so one could simply "immerse" yourself into thinking it takes place after the game, but whatever. I only hope it isn't as incredibly underwhelming as Skyrim's main questline where it felt like you accomplished nothing due to a lack of a proper conclusion and acknowledgement of what you did afterwards.

As for the no level cap, I find it odd they told us about having such an emphasis on characters being more specialized with the changes to SPECIAL and the new perk system and now announce no level cap. But as many have already mentioned, hopefully there is a choice in whether you want to continue leveling or not.

Hmm, I don't recall ever having much issue with "gotta take a perk, but there's none I want". But, then, with the lv20 cap & not min-maxing my skill point gains & planning around finding every book & bobble, I felt that the +5/+5 skill perks were worthwhile. Nowadays I don't pick them, but with the 30 cap & the extra perk options added by some mods, there's always plenty of interesting options.

Not seeing the issue with this. Honestly if you don't want to continue after the mq ends and you dont want to deal with the unlimited levels just delete that save then start over and make different choices. There problem solved.

So it's basically like Skyrim's no ending and no level cap? Cool.

Thejedio, the issue is that most RPG's which are open ended have final missions which are anti-climatic and leave you feeling Meh. Now while this may not be an issue for those who just want to putter around after they've got the irksome main questline out of their way, the lack of a decent "ending" for the main questline is a major issue for others (which includes myself).