I played all the way through the Morrowind MQ, but still didnt learn what happened to the dwarves. Is there a 'lore' deffinite answer to what happens to them? I tried reading some of the stuff on the Dwemer but it didnt seem like they explained it.

You won't learn the fate of the Dwemer in the main qeust. In Vivecs Guild of Mages, Trebonius does give you a quest for it, which also can be solved and does explain the basics very briefly. I believe the UESP has the walk through, if you want to pick up all the pieces first hand.

One of the forums scholars wrote everything down in a http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/luagararticle1.shtml along with some more information that wasn't provided in game.

Quick answer: They folded themselves out of existence by playing with the Heart of Lorkhan.

Really quick answer: We don't precisely know.

The latter is an idea that still pops up on this forum now and then, though I wonder why. The precise answer can be read in Luagar's piece. That idea is based on Xal the Maruhkati's explanation, which over the years has repeatedly been confirmed by Michael Kirkbride to be accurate.

But having an OOC dev saying "This is the final, 100% truth" just milks anything fun out of the idea. Plus, it kind of kills the whole fun of lore in general once it's established that at any moment a dev could come and say that something is definitively true or untrue, robs it of it's lifelike, organic qualities. Now, lore or not lore is fine, since "lore" is just the beliefs that are held, so the ashlander's and tribunal's accounts of red Mountain are both lore, but to have him sweep out and steal away the fun of TES like that seems unfair and almost deliberately cruel.

Are you kidding me?

There was no sweeping in and stealing away, he just offered the final piece of the puzzle - Xal's quote alone is almost useless for understanding anything other than the final product of the Dwemer's actions (and it's not like we didn't have years to try and figure it out on our own).

Besides that, while it may be true that "it kind of kills the whole fun of lore in general once it's established that at any moment a dev could come and say that something is definitively true or untrue", that's kind of a moot point considering that it almost never happens, using extremes is crappy form in argument - you make it sound as if the devs are constantly floating around above the forum reading to come in ruin discussion at a moments notice, when really they hardly ever stop by and when they do it's usually to add to the lore, not to take away from it.

Owh shush. It's only confirmation.

But compare it to what Baladas says in game and you end up all the same. Gods becoming mortals reversed by the Dwemer as Mortals then reuniting into a God.

It's not my intention to make it seem like it's a common occurance, but consider my POV:

The lore is interesting because it is like actual sets of politics and religion, where it is portrayed through the people who believe, or in some cases, don't believe, and is left to be decided on an individual basis what is 'true" or not. The fact that, while rare, it is possible for someone to come and say "but this is an unshakeable fact" kills that quality, even the one occurance, the proof of concept, is often enough to make the qwhole thing come crashing down. Baladas saying his in-game theory and someone coming in the real world and asaying "he was right and there can be no alternative argument" are different.

I'm not saying your theory is invalid or anything, I'm just saying that to have a definitive, 100% true as opposed to "the most likely" answer kills all the fun.

Then what alternative do you have that fits the given data better? The difference between "the absolute truth" and "in light of overwhelming evidence" doesn't really matter unless there is a vailable alternative.

Actually, it does. Because if there was new evidence, say we go to hammerfell in TESV and leanr what they were doing there, then any background lore conflicting with the OOC confirmation would just be pointless fluff.

It's all a matter of belief, I suppose. I figure, my belief is that the lifelike qualities of TES lore, the thing that I view as it's foundation, is removed by the allowance for OOC confirmation. But since I know that expressing divergent opinions in this place is as useful as yelling to a wall, I'll just leave the thread saying, in the occasion that the "TESF commentary" and the piece of human excrement that created it are still on TIL, have fun dealing with them, since I know how much he hates independent thought.

Yes. If there is new evidence that would allow for a vailable alternative, then the difference between "the absolute truth" and "in light of overwhelming evidence" does matter. Coincidently this also is the logical complement to my original statement, so I'm not sure what you are getting it.

Here's my problem with this forging souls into Numidium thing: Okay, the Dwemer previously tied their souls to the Heart in order to gain immortality. So given that it isn't that big a leap to say that by tinkering with the Heart, you could have the Heart process all of those souls and regurgitate it to mythically form Walk-Brass' skin. That's fine, I can accept that.

What I can't accept is that supposedly Dumac (King of the Dwemer) didn't know about Kagrenac's project to build a giant robot. From there, it is easy to assume that Kagrenac was then hiding Numidium, constructing it without anyone's approval because it is a giant robot and you can't plead ignorance of a project like that unless it were being hidden. If the King of the Dwemer didn't know about Numidium's construction, then what kind of audacity would it take for Kagrenac to presume to decide the fate and future of his entire people without their knowledge or consent (or even a representative of them) of something on this magnitude?

I understand, Kagrenac was panicked and backed into a corner because he thought that the Chimer were going to kill him and destroy his Giant Robot and all that work that he was trying to accomplish would be for naught... but what kind of person would do something as rash as that for his entire people because he was backed into a corner? And finally, is it also possible that because he was panicked, he didn't make a mistake and uncreated his race? Or did something else?

I have a feeling that Vivec's account would've included something like "the giant Dwemeri creation's covering grew until it formed completely over itself and we saw something like one of their constructs, etc..." I realize that Vivec is a compulsive liar and his account isn't to be trusted, but something as spectacular as that or as magnificent but questionably relevant wouldn't have stuck in his head? He would have no reason to leave it out unless he truly wanted to obscure the Dwarve's fate, which is ridiculous.

To sum up: Vivec would've mentioned something like Numidium suddenly gaining skin and Kagrenac would've had to have been overly presumptuous for his people (and probably calm as the grave) in order to have pulled something off like that.

This also is not to mention what happened to the Mournhold Dwarves or the Hammerfall Dwarves, as they couldn't possibly have had their souls tied to the Heart (unless Kagrenac either was presumptuous on them again, or couldn't narrow his catch-all immortality tieing to "the Dwemer in THIS region")

But if we accept that Kagrenac was very presumptuous and capable of tieing creatures very far away to the heart, then why wouldn't he try to ascend all elven kind?

Mehrunes Dagon your last statement does not to tie in with Kagrenac's supposed motives. As you say, it is not suggested anywheres that I am aware of that Kagrenac intended ill towards the Dwemer - rather was trying to help his own people ascend. From what we can glean it appears that the disappearance was to do with a failure on the part of Kagrenac - he made a mistake. So why would he have wanted to help his enemies by appying the same process to them and assist them to ascend too?

The Dwemer were very insular and had a totally different viewpoint from others so likewise Kagrenac would be unlikely to consider other kinds of mer as allies or deserving. It is likely that many or even most Dwemer did not wish to ascend even though Kagrenac was their 'High Technician.' Clearly not all Dwemer understood or believed in what Kagrenac intended - and we have the testimony of the Last Dwemer to verify that - and Kagrenac knew this. That is why he barricaded himself in his laboratory when Dumac discovered what he was up to. But it also appears that as with all such megalomaniacs there was anassumption on Kagrenac's part that he knew best. err, oops - if I am not mistaken

You're leaning too much on Nerevar at Red Mountain. None of the accounts of what happened are very consistent and none of the observers are very qualified. It's pretty much a dead end.

Rather look at the general tendencies of Mer. In the Dawn Era when Mundus was made the gods had to life on through their children, each generation there would be more but they also were weaker. The gods degenerated. At the end of the convention Auri-El, King of the Aldmer ascended into heaven for all too see.
Afterwards Aldmeris broke because noone could agree on the exact way to reapraoch heaven. Each believing that what they had witnessed was true. Such is the nature of the Dawn Era. See the Intercept for more.

The Dwemer have depiction of Auri-El's ascension in the Ruins of Kemel-Ze and the Book, Egg of Time shows the Numidium doing the same thing. This is where you can apply both Xal and Baladas. The Dwemer sought to reverse the process of creation, reunite and escape Mundus.

As for why Kargrenac pushed ahead anyways:



As for why it failed:



The Dwemer did not know Love, also see the http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml.

I wasn't saying anything about Kagrenac's intentions. Those were made pretty clear: he wanted to achieve what all elven-kind mythically wanted to achieve. Due to the nature of what he was doing, he had to apply that to a grand scale and include his entire race. That makes sense. What I took issue with was whether or not he really did speak on the behalf of his entire race when he performed this act in secret or not.

What I was arguing with that parting question was that if we assume that Kagrenac thought that he knew best, then why didn't he or couldn't he try to ascend the other elves, considering that they all wanted the same thing. But yes, I do agree that it could've been that he thought that the others weren't deserving or something. I also posit that he ran out of time and would've if those meddling Chimeri kids hadn't interfered, or needed some other way to be able to tie them to the Heart.



Yeah, I do admit that I am pretty much relying on one little passage that is only in one account.

I guess I just have a slightly more idealistic view on humanity/elfendom than others and can't accept that Kagrenac would assume that his people wanted this beyond a mythical level.

This might help. Or not. They were weird either way.

http://www.imperial-library.info/dwemer/guide.shtml

Something I have wondered recently, that I've failed to find an answer to elsewhere: Why did Kagrenac's usage of his Tools upon the Heart result in his race's nigh-total disappearance, and but not that of the Tribunal's? What did they know that Kagrenac did not?

My understanding is as follows. Keep in mind, I am no Lore expert, so it could be wrong. Besides that, It's all my opinion.

The Tribunal were only trying to bind themselves to the heart, each one of them - individually. Whereas Kagrenac was trying to let his entire race ascend - ascend, not become God[s].

There was a recent Topic concerning the Dwemer. They were trying to 'power' the Anumidium (Stompy robot - it's had so many names I've forgotten which one corresponds to what time in history it was used) using themselves. I am one who believes they vanished because Yagrum Bagarn was in an 'Outer-dimension' when Kagrenac tapped the Heart, and thus he didn't have the entire race there with him. Hence, they failed.

In other words, their use of the heart was entirely different than that of the Tribunal's, so the effects were also going to be different.

I'd ask a different question:"What did they (and Dagoth Ur, by the way, too) do differently than the Dwemer?".
I think Kagrenac used the tools in a different way and for a different purpose than the Tribunal or Dagoth Ur did, which then led to a different result.
Edit: LostGatetoCruelty: Jinx!


On the discussion of "ingame sources" for the Dwemer disappearance mystery:
"In a rare scholarly moment, Marobar Sul leaves a few pieces of the original story intact, such as parts of the original line in Aldmeris, "A Dwemer of eight can create a golem, but an eight of Dwemer can become one."
- http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/marobar.shtml#6, emphasis mine

That would certainly explain it. I still think that Azura is responsible for the disappearance of the Dwemer. NOTE: I don't have time (at the moment) to explain my theory right now. PM me if interested and I'll get back to you some other time.

EDIT: Nevermind. I have time.



I think that's supposed to mean that few Dwemer out of the whole race can accomplish such a thing. Or, it's a double meaning.

That would certainly explain it. I still think that Azura is responsible for the disappearance of the Dwemer. NOTE: I don't have time (at the moment) to explain my theory right now. PM me if interested and I'll get back to you some other time.

I'd love to here your theory, and I'm sure others would too. I'll be sure to PM you later, unless you post it in here first.

Basically, my theory is that Azura, finally fed up with the Dwemers' blasphemy, punished all but one by tossing them into a plane of existence from which there is no detection by any others or escape, at the very second that Kagrenac touched the Heart of Lorkhan with his Tools. As for why Yagrum Bagarn wasn't thrown in there with the rest of them, I don't believe that Daedric Princes have the ability to reach into whatever Outer Realm they want to. If they can, then I guess the Dwemer really did unmake themselves.

EDIT: Nuts, I have to go. Sorry.

Actually it might mean that Dwemer were akin in their cultural or emotional leanings to a golem ... if you accept MK's view - and I suspect that during a lot of his posts here he roleplays - so you really ought to keep in mind that other views (including those held by other devs ) may be equally true.





That does not make so much sense to me, if only because when Azura lost patience with the Chimeri she made public her response ... so I would prefer to believe that it was something to do with Dwemer thinking, means and goals. Assuming the Dwemer thought was in some respects truly alien and incomprehensible to other mer and sentient races then it may be that you should expect the goal of Kagrenak's visualisation to be equally incomprehensibe and therefore how would other races be able to perceive it as what it was/is/will be?

Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so might be incomprehension.

By corollary another 'what if' you might consider: from a Dwemer point of view it was not the Dwemer who were incomprehensible but rather other races who refused to comprehend ... it's all in a point of view ... but History is written by the survivors - or perhaps those who remained /were left behind in this case.

My thinking is that the Chimeri had some credit left with her, due to the differences in their nature and actions, and so did them the courtesy of an explanation. As for her not saying anything to them about doing worse to the Dwemer, I defer to the nature of mortals fearing the unknown, which is something Azura's probably aware of.



That indeed made a lot of the difference.



Makes perfect sense, which is why I find the seemingly most prevalent theory to have considerable legitimacy.

BTW, I can perfectly accept the theory that Azura wasn't involved in the Dwemer case because she knew what was going to happen (the unmaking of the nigh-entire race) and decided to just let nature take its course, then dealt with the Chimer appropriately. But I cannot accept ignoring her as a factor completely. It simply does not make any sense to me.

Huh? Azura revealed Kagrenac's plans (which were secret even to Dumac) to Nerevar and told the Chimer to go to war. And then Kagrenace screwed up while under siege.