Enemies that can stealth/sneak

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:48 pm

The Evil guy thing was a specific reply to Kermit's point about assassins being sent after you. Obviously wouldn't apply to bandits you come across by accident.
As to the sniper thing, i would never say shooters are inferior to rpg's, you play the games you want to play, but if I want a shooter, I'll play a shooter, and I don't care who disagrees, or why, I want my TES to stick, loosely, to what they have done before, and would prefer FPS mechanics to be kept out.
User avatar
james reed
 
Posts: 3371
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:18 am

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:22 pm

has anyone mentioned the permanent chameleon cloaked Nightkin in Fallout NV? You could see the "distortion" in a direct light source, but they would be invisible in shade/night. They scared me more than once and I loved it!
User avatar
Nadia Nad
 
Posts: 3391
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:17 pm

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:59 am

This makes me remember my days playing Daggerfall. Enemies didn't get a damage bonus while sneaking... but human enemies, since they had no sounds attached to them, and since there was no battle music to warn you, would, if you weren't careful, hit you from behind without you expecting it from time to time. The claustrophobic paranoia of Daggerfall's dungeons was simply delicious.

The way I would implement sneak would be twofold. First off, sneaky enemies would attempt to approach from outside your line of sight. Second, the "sneak check" would determine whether or not BATTLE MUSIC activated. If the "die roll" was successful, they could approach you with hostile intent, without triggering battle music to warn you. Battle music would not activate until after you had "officially" noticed them (which, obviously, would include striking them with a weapon or spell), which would be determined the same way for you as for an NPC you are attempting to sneak up on.

I don't like the idea of "chameleon" effects for sneaking characters; that feels like a cop-out. Just shut down battle music. That's enough for me.

As to the problem of stealth being annoyingly common... just don't make it so. If you enter a dungeon known to contain such enemies, you should be ready for it. If you're at a point in a quest line where an assassin is after you, you should be ready for it. If you're just traveling down the road, you shouldn't have to worry about being sniped; most robbers are not also murderers. However, if I'm traveling through a particularly dark, dangerous wilderness, my response to having my character suddenly die, and seeing that it was a mountain lion suddenly dropping out of a tree that did it, would not be "damn it!" but rather, "holy crap, that was awesome!" And then calmly reload, and keep my eyes open better.
User avatar
Ryan Lutz
 
Posts: 3465
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:39 pm

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:39 am

This makes me remember my days playing Daggerfall. Enemies didn't get a damage bonus while sneaking... but human enemies, since they had no sounds attached to them, and since there was no battle music to warn you, would, if you weren't careful, hit you from behind without you expecting it from time to time. The claustrophobic paranoia of Daggerfall's dungeons was simply delicious.

The way I would implement sneak would be twofold. First off, sneaky enemies would attempt to approach from outside your line of sight. Second, the "sneak check" would determine whether or not BATTLE MUSIC activated. If the "die roll" was successful, they could approach you with hostile intent, without triggering battle music to warn you. Battle music would not activate until after you had "officially" noticed them (which, obviously, would include striking them with a weapon or spell), which would be determined the same way for you as for an NPC you are attempting to sneak up on.

I don't like the idea of "chameleon" effects for sneaking characters; that feels like a cop-out. Just shut down battle music. That's enough for me.

As to the problem of stealth being annoyingly common... just don't make it so. If you enter a dungeon known to contain such enemies, you should be ready for it. If you're at a point in a quest line where an assassin is after you, you should be ready for it. If you're just traveling down the road, you shouldn't have to worry about being sniped; most robbers are not also murderers. However, if I'm traveling through a particularly dark, dangerous wilderness, my response to having my character suddenly die, and seeing that it was a mountain lion suddenly dropping out of a tree that did it, would not be "damn it!" but rather, "holy crap, that was awesome!" And then calmly reload, and keep my eyes open better.


I pretty much agree with everything you've said. However I honestly think they should create new "tension" music to play when you're sneaking up on a hostile NPC or a hostile NPC is sneaking up on you. Also, I wouldn't want this system to be overused, only in particular game states, dungeons, towns, forests, etc. Such as, if you know you've done something to piss off a faction, then you should be on your guard; if you're travelling through a dangerous area which you were WARNED about, then you should be on your guard, if you're invading a cave full of angry bandits, you should be on your guard.
User avatar
Chris Jones
 
Posts: 3435
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 3:11 am

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:18 am

im hoping they got smart and fixed it so that the battle music doesnt start till after you have entered combat. there is no reason it needs to start just because an enemy spots you since it gives you to much warning. that was one of the reasons i turned music off in oblivion initially although eventually i came to enjoy playing all games without the music. more immersive.
User avatar
JUDY FIGHTS
 
Posts: 3420
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:25 am

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:59 am

Congratulations. You have just made the most interesting topic in the discussion I've seen so far.
User avatar
Tiffany Carter
 
Posts: 3454
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:05 am

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:39 am

Would be awesome but with the tech we have right now I don't think we can make bots smart enough to sneak and use stealth. Or atleast they won't use it well.
User avatar
BethanyRhain
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:50 am

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:16 am

Take the scenario you just used for example: you're walking around in the woods at night and all the sudden an exclamation mark appears in your UI and creepy, tension filled music starts playing. This is your first warning that someone is on to you but you haven't detected them yet. Acknowledging the danger, you cast either a shield spell, detect life spell, or regenerate health.

Don't like that idea at all. If it warns you beforehand without you seeing the person, there's no point in it being a sneak attack. You can just run to the side dramatically or dodgeroll or whatever.
User avatar
kiss my weasel
 
Posts: 3221
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:08 am

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:29 pm

I personally like what I've suggested http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1195197-real-darkness/. Merely let shadows work properly. Have sneaking NPC's seek out dark spots. No need for chameleon, just make them dress appropriatly. No stealthy assassin would wear glass armour.
User avatar
Flesh Tunnel
 
Posts: 3409
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:43 pm

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:57 pm

Would be awesome but with the tech we have right now I don't think we can make bots smart enough to sneak and use stealth. Or atleast they won't use it well.

The AI doesn't have to use it well. Because the purpose isn't to kill the player; the purpose is to keep the player on their toes. If only one out of a hundred sneak attempts worked against the hero, it is more than enough to make sure the player pay attention.

It's like how an enemy archer doesn't need to hit you perfectly every time. The purpose is that there is a risk, and that the player is given a good chance to counter that danger. You are not going to find many bandits to either be master marksmen or skilled assassins on the road.

Bethesda isn't trying to make sure the player dies, Bethesda is trying to make sure the player is having fun playing. So perfect enemies who could always murder the player in one shot is quite counter-productive unless they are a part of a quest line boss.
User avatar
Paula Rose
 
Posts: 3305
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:12 am

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:18 pm

I personally like what I've suggested http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1195197-real-darkness/. Merely let shadows work properly. Have sneaking NPC's seek out dark spots. No need for chameleon, just make them dress appropriatly. No stealthy assassin would wear glass armour.

Unless it enchanted to chameleon spell effect, and assassin use improved silence ons self or as area effect
Making NPC use chameleon effect is just most easy way to make them invisible for player, personally I'd like to see some more improved mechanic but I doubt it will be done
I agree thats equipment must have impact on sneak, SDR mod from above add such features
IMMERSION LEVELS
- Three levels of immersion (Basic, Advanced, hardcoe)

BASIC features include:
- Changing the base sneak/detection value
- Extending the Sneak attack multipliers all the way through Master level.
- Option where holding a lit torch cancels out invisibility spells/effects on the player.
- Setting the light level offset that affects how much light is considered to be hitting the player.
- Scaling how fast you can move while sneaking depending on your Sneak mastery.

ADVANCED features include all Basic features plus:
- Adjusting in Combat penalties
- Adjusting the max detection distance range
- Adjusting light/sound penalty multipliers
- Adjusting no LOS penalties
- Adjusting Running sound penalties
- Adjusting Sneak Detection minimums

hardcoe features include all Advanced features plus:
- Light not only affects the player, but also the detector.
- Torches held by NPCs will cancel any invisibility effects on them if same option selected for player.
- Better sleeping target bonus in exchange for turning off auto-move.
- Scaled base sound penalty that adjusts to skill mastery levels in Sneak and Acrobatics.
- Significant bump to be spotted if detector has line of sight, and comes within very close range.
- If you have been noticed, detectors get a boost to keep tracking you.
- NPCs that are talking or are in the midst of dialogue get penalties to detect you.
- Silence spells cast on the player nullify all sound penalties for the duration of the spell.
- Penalties are applied if you are moving and are within line of sight.
- Boost to sneak skill development for successful marksman undetected missile sneak attacks.
- Modified ranges within which you can gain skillup points.
- Completely replaced movement sound detection system based on:
> gear equipped, type of gear (clothing, light armor, heavy armor), and which slot (legs, feet, etc.)
> whether you have a weapon out or not, and the type of weapon
> whether or not your weapon is out, shield is out, etc.
> how you are moving (walking, running, jumping, swimming)
> if standing still, whether or not you are turning in place.
- Bonuses to be detected for holding a lit torch or having a LIGHT magic effect
- Optional exponential lighting curve bonus, making it very difficult to sneak in bright lighting conditions
- Swap out visual refraction for Chameleon effect with transparent alpha shader.
- NPCs that sneak become more transparent until they disappear, depending on your ability to detect them and their disposition towards you.
- Adjustments for peripheral vision, with options to make exceptions for creatures and/or Argonians

hardcoe with AV UNCAPPER OBSE plug-in features include:
- no limit to the detector's temporary Sneak Skill level for the purpose of detection
- diminishing returns that prevent Blindness and Chameleon from ever reaching 100% in actual effectiveness.
NOTE: SDR is not very challenging without AV Uncapper installed. So I highly recommend installing it.

Really interesting mod improve stealth in great way and even fix 100% chameleon and instant invisibility exploits, but I will be happy if even small of such features will be done in Skyrim,

About NPC sneak without chameleon well as I already said thats can be scripted in form light detection by AI such detection then can be used fro different things also not only for sneak, for example certain beast can avoid come close to lighted places as part fear of fire for example, NPC will come to lighten place so they will stay in light places, or fire up torches and lanterns in dark rooms and dungeons, as part of AI sneaking overhaul can use both LOS detection and light detection to lurk in dark corners and strike from the rear, as well LOS detection is can be usable for example NPC will look at player face when player look at front of NPC, and thats already I believe part of new dialogue system when player can stop conversation by walking away to much to be out of certain distance from LOS, detection of player LOS also can be used for making evasive movements in close combat like this ones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-d6eS4159c
or use shield bash and shield block if player have equipped ranged weapon and has NPC in LOS.

Another good feature will be nice to see thats is redone Combat music system similar to this mod
BetterMusicSystem
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=26892
START of BATTLE MUSIC
- you must be aware of an enemy. battle music won't warn you about enemies that you can't see yet unless you get hit.
- VoyeurMode: combat is also detected if player is not engaged in a battle that is happening near.
- rats (and very weak enemies) don't trigger battle music at all, unless they hit the player or the player has low health. more then 3 rats will trigger combat music though.

END of BATTLE MUSIC
- ... when you THINK (or don't know if) combat is over. again the battle music won't warn you about further enemies waiting for you in the dark and you will never know if the battle is really over!
- when you are chased by an enemy that is far enough behind you that you can't hear him. you will never know if he is still behind you!
- music fades out slowly while some adrenaline heartbeat and breath sounds calm down... (depending on combat duration. short combat = short fade out, no heartbeat)
- silence after combat (few seconds) before happy explore flute music restarts


In complete set with NPC sneaking thats will work in awesome synergy, and I really hope thats will be done fro Skyrim, I'm not demand axing combat music completely from game, I want see music system redone and improved.
User avatar
Alex Vincent
 
Posts: 3514
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:31 pm

Post » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:31 am

Forces you to be even more guarded. Love it!
User avatar
Mr. Allen
 
Posts: 3327
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:36 am

Previous

Return to V - Skyrim

cron