First off, I’d like for you to please excuse me if this thread happens to be in an incorrect place. I had originally planned to place this in the Construction Set subforum since this discussion may pertain to certain variables and factors found through the Construction Set, but decided against it in order to see how mod-makers tackle this problem. As you can probably tell, I am new here, at least in time spent as a member, as I have been lurking these forums for some time now. Anyway, a bit of insight on those unfamiliar to the whole aggression and threat concept.

Threat in most video games in generally defined as the force that causes computer-controlled enemies to attack a specific player. This is most prevalent in RPG’s where party members can be acquired, or in MMO’s, where threat is usually taken very seriously.

Many of these games have character roles specifically titled ‘Tanks’. The main purpose of a tank is to soak up damage and to cause every enemy to attack their person. The best situation for the tank is to have every enemy aggressive to them and them alone, which keeps enemies away from the less defensive allies such as castors and rangers. Tanks usually have a plethora of abilities to maintain threat and survivability, making them extremely difficult to kill.

Threat and Aggression is an interesting concept to bring into Oblivion, because unlike other RPG’s like Dragon Age: Origins or MMORPG’s, Oblivion’s main campaign is played solo, meaning there is absolutely no reason for a tank, since every enemy will be focused on you already.

Of course, many mods have attempted to change this, such as Talkie Toaster’s Companion Share and Recruit, which let’s you recruit companions and assign roles to them. They can even be proficient healers, since I don’t think NPC’s ever use heal spells unless they are targeted Self, or have a secondary effect which warrants use, meaning usually something that actually does damage to you. See, the funny thing about threat is that it usually doesn’t work the other way around—since you happen to be intelligent enough to decide that an enemy healer is more important to kill than a guy in extremely heavy armor and high health, no matter how many abilities they happen to use on you.

To a lesser extent, a mod like FCOM can also gain a lot through threat management. Since the world no longer revolves around you, you’ll be bound to see a hostile target mutilating a weak NPC often in your troubles, and you usually don’t want that poor NPC to die (well, let’s assume you don’t). So, what do you do in that situation? You run up to the foe and start hacking and slashing to get his attention…but wait! He’s still focused on that poor stablekeep who happens to be about ready to bite the dust.

Recently, more and more mods have demanded a more party-esque feel in order to be completed successfully, such as The Deep, which might require a good and balanced party to complete. Others may follow in its footsteps, or maybe some already had this idea in mind.

Believe it or not, being the tank is usually a main character role in most games. It should make sense—after all, you’re the hero, the leader, and leaders usually rush in into the fray before anyone else and pave the way for the other members of the party to do their thing. And besides, who else happens to be smart enough to know when best to use ‘pulling’ abilities to bring an enemy who happened to find your healer tastier than you? Surely not the clunky AI that wastes all their resources to take out the hardest thing to kill in the group! Unfortunately, this is especially true for Oblivion, where there is no way to take control of your tank and attack any enemy that isn’t on his menu already. I don’t even think Talkie Toaster’s mod adds this functionality. So for now, it seems you’re stuck tanking, which isn’t necessarily a boring role (I prefer tanks and healers myself), since you’ll basically be the second most important member of the party, unless you happen to be really bad at your job. You can be the fine line between a disaster, and a job well done.

But the question still stands: how do you tank effectively? How does an enemy determine which target in the player’s party is more dangerous? What abilities does the player have at their disposal to make an enemy attack them instead of other targets? Are there any mods that rectify this issue? Is there any website where I can scavenge more information on the subject?

Sorry all for the longish post. Any piece of information regarding the subject would be most helpful.

I know that disposition plays a role, but in a situation involving most enemies which have an automatic -100 modifier to all non evil NPCS, the deciding factor is usually racial modifiers

An Altmer bandit will attack the Nord warrior before the Altmer healer. In general

Altmer are hated by all other races, but liked more by their own
Orcs and Dunmer are univerally hated by all races, and are neutral with those of their own race
Redguards are disliked by Bretons and Imperials, but liked by their own
Imperials are neutral across the board
All other races are neutral, apart from with their own, by whom they are liked

Interesting. I had a feeling disposition and race had to do with the whole thing. Would it be possible to change these values, such as make Imperials be disliked by Argonians, or something to that effect. Heck, let's go one step further: is it possible to edit these values in-game, and would an enemy automatically change course towards the target? If so, there could be so many possibilities for threat management, such as having a mod which checks whether a spell was cast, then determines the player's health to their health before the spell was cast, and make the enemy act accordingly...assuming such a thing is possible; I wouldn't know, since I don't understand the inner workings of mods.

An interesting idea for now is the Burden spell. Though difficult, if an NPC can be encumbered completely, they will be unable to move, and I assume they'll attack anything attackable, meaning the tank. So it's as good a simulation of threat as any, I suppose.

A thing to note is that I believe BG's Race Balancing Project has a power for the Warrior Birthsign that causes enemies to attack the user. I never used the Warrior birthsign before, so I wouldn't be able to see if it really works. I think it would be interesting to see a fully functional threat system in Oblivion, but I'm not getting my hopes up since companions are so scarce and I doubt such an addition would add much of a tactical breakthrough to Oblivion (where self-sufficient classes as the way to go since you have the capability of doing everything yourself).

Disclaimer first: I'm not a modder, so I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about. Here are my ideas though:

A player (or NPC tank) might be able to effectively pull enemies by casting a Personality debuff on self. As a result, NPCs' Disposition towards the tank will drop, perhaps enough for them to prefer the tank as a target. The obvious downside is that all NPCs detect the personality debuff, and may attack the tank as a result - they don't know that the heroic champion is attempting to rescue them; they simply know that he smells foul and looks shifty. Even other companions might attack a companion tank, which is simply No Good.

That's all I can think of using native Oblivion spell effects, but some possibilities may exist using the nearly-finished (alpha release, I think) Oblivion Magic Extender (OBME), which makes it possible to add spell effects to the game. Really add them - so that, for example, enchantments can be cast and new spells may be crafted using those effects. It seems like it should be technically possible to cast a "Hate Me" spell, an anti-Charm (...Strange? Physics jokes anyone?) or negative-magnitude Charm spell on enemies, especially since the vanilla Charm spell already laid most of the framework. Area-of-effect anti-Charm spells might also be useful, but their usefulness would be contingent on making sure that friendly NPCs are not affected. One way would be to also create a cheap, long-duration (or better yet toggleable) "Make Love, Not War" spell that prevents NPCs from being affected by anti-Charm spells. Another way, I suppose, would be to make the spell ineffective on non-evil NPCs, but this rather excludes evil and/or lawless characters by preventing them from using the spell to pick fights with otherwise innocent townspeople. Don't you want to be nice to the evil PCs?

A useful companion spell would be a cheap, large-area-of-effect Charm that is dispelled if you speak to the target, which would allow healers and damage-dealers to shed aggression without disbalancing the game by making it too easy to Charm every merchant you meet. The magnitude of this spell should be tuned so that it won't stop most enemies from attacking, but will make them more likely to prefer another, nearby target. Also the duration should be relatively short; this is a stopgap until the tank catches up with his job, as aggression management is really the core of the tank's role.

As a side note, the modders responsible for Unnecessary Violence and Persuasion Overhaul may know something interesting about this topic. If I recall correctly, both of those mods include ways to 'taunt' NPCs, resulting in a decrease in their disposition towards you.

Now, just to be certain, all of the above ideas were based on the concept that NPCs attack the creature towards which they have the lowest disposition. Experts in the audience, is that true? Please enlighten us.

Oh, one more thing: Making Burden spells too easy/cheap/strong would be disbalancing for another reason: Stealth characters. My char fights running backwards and shooting. If he were able to pin any enemy in place, a lot of enemies would go down without ever getting a hit in. A lot of them already do, but at least he has to work for it, carefully balancing the need to stay out of reach with the need to conserve energy since Realistic Fatigue is installed. This might be disbalancing even for melee characters - if they pin multiple enemies, they get to fight each one individually, in an order of their choosing, instead of being mobbed by all of them at once. So, I personally think that Burden wouldn't really be a viable means of aggression control.

Changing them is very simple, just use the race menus in the CS. I can't think of what else the enemy uses to determine threat level. Player level seems to play no role whatsoever, as bandits and creatures seem to prefer to attack your horse and weaker NPCs before you (in mods such as Tamrielic travellers)

The only other factor I'd speculate on is damage dealt to the creature. Ocassionaly, if I see a troll chasing down a poor travelling maerchant and I jump into help, after dealing enough damage, the troll will turn its attention to me

However, the more you hit something, the less it likes you, so again it could just all be tied to disposition

Well this is a very interesting topic!
Ok were talking about aggression/threats well we could make a scripted ability to a button that taunts enemies nearby and chances of success would be based on characters strength/endurance/health/personality/speechcraft I'm just giving examples here..
Tank's are very important by the post above you said that dealing damage to the enemy makes him hate you more, that is correct which could lead to getting pwned by the enemy if you are a guy who's fagile, however Oblivion NPC's don't attack healers if they don't see them first so if you constantly support your ally they wont attack you, drawing your weapon reduces enemies disposition which could lead to them attacking you, so casting spells doesn't reduce enemies disposition as much as physical damage, however the Oblivion system makes it possible for you to heal a enemy or even damage a ally and in some cases ( mine: enemies don't attack me head-on they run by my sides while one character charges towards me and eventually i get surrounded) if a ally got surrounded how will the healer assist him?
How about enemies could we try making them think the same? ( melee heavy armoured bandit going straight for the heavy enemy while bandit bowman shoots everyone else )

There's at least one mod out there that plays with this stuff -- it makes enemies more likely to attack the PC than the creatures he summons.

That's an intriguing prospect. Perhaps we can make the spell check the target's original disposition to the caster or whether or not they have an item with them--such as a companion ring--and excludes these from the spell's effect. Though I've no idea if this is even possible. It's as good a solution as any, I suppose.



Yes, a disengage spell would be useful to shed off any unwanted threat. The problem would be forcing the companion to cast these spells. A mod expanding on these abilities would have to have the option of monitoring a target's threat and allowing the user to choose at which point an ally would be forcefully made to cast such a spell. I don't think there's any mod out there that allows the PC to force NPC's to cast spells that would never be used, is there?

Hmm, I'm not too keen on the idea of disposition affecting threat. While it would be more realistic that a dirty, smelly and rude warrior would be the target of most onslaught, it makes it difficult to tank effectively if you have a high Personality score.

[quote][Well this is a very interesting topic!
Ok were talking about aggression/threats well we could make a scripted ability to a button that taunts enemies nearby and chances of success would be based on characters strength/endurance/health/personality/speechcraft I'm just giving examples here..
Tank's are very important by the post above you said that dealing damage to the enemy makes him hate you more, that is correct which could lead to getting pwned by the enemy if you are a guy who's fagile, however Oblivion NPC's don't attack healers if they don't see them first so if you constantly support your ally they wont attack you, drawing your weapon reduces enemies disposition which could lead to them attacking you, so casting spells doesn't reduce enemies disposition as much as physical damage, however the Oblivion system makes it possible for you to heal a enemy or even damage a ally and in some cases ( mine: enemies don't attack me head-on they run by my sides while one character charges towards me and eventually i get surrounded) if a ally got surrounded how will the healer assist him?
How about enemies could we try making them think the same? ( melee heavy armoured bandit going straight for the heavy enemy while bandit bowman shoots everyone else )/quote]

That's why a type of mod trying to regulate threat would have to 'make' threat for healers whenever they use their spells by perhaps using a script to monitor the health of every ally (through a certain disposition or checking if they have a certain item that marks them an ally) and then monitors whether a spell was cast that heals an ally (by comparing everyone's health after the spell was cast) and then perhaps increasing the 'threat' of every enemy in combat towards the healer.

Damage should definitely contribute to threat, however, because otherwise how would we get the other members of the party to gain threat if the tank is using all these threatening abilities? The simplest way is to perhaps add a drain strength to the tank for a few seconds after a threatening ability is used, which sacrifices your damage potential (a tank should never expect to kill anything in the first place--that isn't your role) but increases your threat. A worthy trade-off under most circumstances.

You make a good point with the healing problem, but perhaps this could be part of the fun. If you let your tank take on everything, then your damage dealers better be opening up a spot quickly for your healer to intervene, otherwise his spells will never reach the tank. It adds a new layer of concern for each member of the party, since the tank will need healing eventually (sooner rather than later if you have five or six enemies attacking you), and the damage dealers will need to work quickly to open up a spot for the healer to fir through and do their job. The healer can also then switch to a more damage-oriented role and help the damage dealers. Some crowd control could also be used, such as a Demoralize spell, which will instantly open up a free spot for the healer.

Still none of this is possible without a way to control your party's actions. Perhaps Companion Mastery (or another mod) can expand on this one day, allowing you to activate and create your own tactics for each companion you have.

Tank's are not tanks just because of their role, its because of their survivability and if he is able to taunt the enemy he must have a skill in doing so, for humanoids offensive words might work, but for creatures..well thats a bit of a problem, its possible that a tank can do a attack that makes the enemy target be in a lot of pain which contributes revenge.

Healer's don't have to be considered a treat, a enemy ranged character will definitly be able to take care of that and like i said the healer's spells wont be able to heal the target tank because the healer is being blocked and yes i guess it would be fun , yes a healer with demoralize would be kinda "OP" however lets just say that illusion magic school is kinda op but not in vanilla because the player is by himself

Well....... multiplayer? CO-OP would be epic

If I were to fight against a party I would go for the easiest kills the ones with light armour, bows and smaller swords, If I was able to choose. Cant you make the npc go after certain objects or actions? What if a all the bows or small swords daggers staff in the game made a npc more likely to attack the one holding it. It could also depend on what weapon the npc was holding almost like the race disposition instead now its weapons. Bows hate bows , two hand weapons are neutral to bows and hate small swords and shields and so on. Hope I'm clear enough, I have no experience with modding or scripting.

Generally games don't distinguish between a tank's ability to maintain aggression on beasts or humanoids. They just 'taunt' and their enemies automatically begin targeting them. While tanks do have and should have high survivability, they should never be invincible. Six enemies attacking the tank from every side should bring the tank's health down very quickly. The damage dealers should go on overdrive and take out the most weakened target, allowing the healer to find a soft-stop for them to use their healing magic. Alternatively, the healer should cast heal-over-time effects on the tank before it gets too ugly.

Again, if the tank is doing their job correctly, enemy archers will focus on the tank always instead of the archer. Perhaps a mod attempting to expand the threat system should make archers take an immediate distaste for targets not wearing any armor-modifying items.

And by the way, crowd control is a very efficient way to take this game by storm, and is practically vital in order to survive in the highest difficulty setting. One enemy paralyzed or calmed is one less enemy attacking you. In an FCOM environment, it might not be as useful since there are usually more than two enemies attacking your character (or one really powerful enemy).

If I were to create such a mod, I would make instant threat work in a fashion similar to Dragon Age: Origins, where enemies usually go for the person in the heaviest armor, with rouges and archers usually preferring to go for casters first. I have some ideas on how I can modify threat, but will need to test some commands out first. I am still a novice when it comes to the CS but have prior programming experience, so perhaps the learning curve will be less steep.

Well since in most of the time you will face off undead in greater numbers it would be nice to add some sort of flash spells that blinds the enemies for a short moment enabling the player to escape
People lets try and keep the topic alive?