Ohhhhh so you just want to be very nitpicky about what scaling is. Very clever. Its true that there is less scaling than in Oblivion but its still too much. Wild creatures dont scale which is a good thing and you wont find bandits in daedric armour which is another. But even in Oblivion you didnt have iron swords level with you and even in Oblivion the names of creatures changed which kind of makes youre definition of scaling complete crap. Its the same thing. When a draugr becomes a draugr deathlord it scales. You fail.

If I meet different enemies in the same dungeon on level 50 than I would on level 5 its scaling. 90% of the enemies I meet in dungeons are scaled. All draugr are either draugr scourges, wights or deathlords. Very rarely do I meat anything lower that that. Even most bandits are scaled inside dungeons. Plunderers etc. Also all loot scales. On level 5 I might find a steel sword but on level 40 I keep finding ebony and glass stuff. On level 40 I also get almost a 1000 gold for completeing some fetch quest for a farmer. Strange dont you think? I cannot find ebony loot in containers on low levels. And I dont understand how you manage to find iron armour from dungeons on level 50. I sure dont. Whats ironic is that spells dont scale for some reason making destruction pretty useless in the long run.

Realism put to context is extremely important for immersion. Dragons are realistic in Nirn. The world revolving around you isnt.

I play on master and the only thing it affect is enemy damage and hp. Has nothing to do with how ridiculously easy getting gold is or how I can clear almost any dungeon even on low levels. Difficulty should affect more than just combat. Even in that it shouldnt just mean that enemies have a ton of hp.

Btw you still forget to provide any rationalization for your arguments except "this isnt wow" and "its dumb"

If you discover some new location and fight some enemies , the next time you will come to this place the opponents will be even more harder to kill.

You're wrong, and I've never ONCE seen a Bandit in Daedric. Steel plate yes, but that's it. If it truly scales that much, then I wouldn't be fighting REGULAR bandits and REGULAR Forsworn at level 50. Nor would I be finding ebony gear at low levels and Iron at high levels, but you refuse to understand this. I find Iron stuff at level 50 all the damn time, and have found maybe 1-2 Daedric weapons even at a high level.

Many dungeons have a level cap. They might go from 10-20 but that's it. I also get low gold amounts for quests that were meant for a LOW level, never has the gold amount I've gotten gone way up. I'm not even sure you're playing the right game. That or you're lying.

Finding too much gold is another argument entirely, make another thread about it and stop trying to add to the subject.

This isn't WoW, my point was people who play WoW are coming into Skyrim and expecting it to be the same. Guess what? That's not going to happen. It would svck horribly to have sections of the map cordoned off until specific levels, I hated it in GTA 3 and I still would. It's a different game, this is how TES works, get over it.

Go play something else and stop speaking BS about leveling, because it's wrong. If leveling was across the board or even 90% I wouldn't find Minor health potions, weak armor and weapons and be one shotting regular bandits. Some places do scale, most do not. Go do a bunch of random caves at level 50, they won't scale.

I'm done with this crap, it just pisses me off.

Adama, you come off as some whiny child that's trying to lecture people with your philosophy (opinion). Quite frankly, and forgive me for being blunt, I don't give a [censored] what you have to say based strictly on your demeanor. The level scaling needs to go and we need to return to static creatures and loot within the game world. The value of loot is diminished by level-scaling and it's quite irritating having to find ebony or glass loot in just about every single [censored] special chest.

Wrong, they will lock to the level you enter the dungeon at. If you go in at 5, and come back at 20 they'll be extremely easy. I've done this with dungeons that are too hard.

From the UESP Wiki:

"Various aspects of the game are leveled. This means that as your character increases in level, some enemies become more challenging but also the quality of the items you find becomes better. However, the leveling system in Skyrim has been altered from that used in Oblivion, in response to criticisms of Oblivion's leveling system.

Different locations in Skyrim have different inherent difficulties. In other words, some dungeons are designed to be too difficult for low-level characters to enter. More challenging dungeons are generally located at higher elevations, meaning that early in the game players may want to avoid mountainous regions. However, more difficult dungeons contain better rewards. In addition, some high-quality items can be randomly found even early in the game.

The level of a given dungeon is fixed the first time you enter it. Therefore, places that you enter early in the game will always contain relatively weak enemies, even if you return to the same dungeon at the end of the game.

In addition, all levelled enemies are generated more like levelled creatures in Oblivion. For example, Bandit NPCs are always a fixed level for their name (Bandits are level 1, Bandit Thugs are level 9, Bandit Highywaymen are level 14, etc). The player's level affects the range of possible bandit types generated within a bandit dungeon, and probably the frequency, but does not seem to affect the resulting stats except in a few rare cases. Lower variant bandits remain reasonably common even when more dangerous bandits are available.

Enemy types also seem to reach a plateau where they stop getting stronger. The strongest bandits (non-boss) are mid-20s. The strongest generic vampire is 54, and guards seem to stop scaling at 50. This implies that the difficulty of many areas will not increase beyond certain levels, except perhaps in frequency of difficult encounters.

Read it and weep.



Yeah, I'm the child that's not listening, ignoring the evidence and claiming they're correct. I'm sick and tired of the liars in these leveling threads, so I'm done being nice about it.

You don't find ebony and glass in every [censored] chest, this is what I'm talking about. I'm level 50 and finding low level stuff I leave behind CONSTANTLY. Either your game is entirely different, or you're lying. Take your pick.

Honestly, did you play Morrowind? Why do I even ask, it's clear you haven't considering your statement "this is how TES works, get over it." How ignorant you are of how the previous TES series operated.

The vast majority of RPGs force you to progress through the world in a mostly linear order... because there is no scaling. You can only progress to the next area when you are at an appropriate level. Every playthrough takes you through the world in the same path, or almost the same (in a Bioware RPG, for instance, you may have a choice of which of three areas to do first... exactly three, and you still have to do them all before you continue, so the only thing you can vary is the order ) This is the "interactive novel" school of game design: you are playing through a story that somebody else wrote.

The Elder Scrolls games use a different model. The fact that they are open and the fact that there is level scaling are inextricably connected. You can't have a truly open world RPG without SOME level scaling. Daggerfall had it (in a sense; the world was mostly randomly generated, and sensitive to the player's level). Morrowind had it, Oblivion had more of it, Skyrim has it but it's more like Morrowind's. Some enemies don't scale, some do, and those that do scale only scale within a range.

Take out the level scaling entirely, and you have a completely different type of game, one that is already overrepresented in the market. The Elder Scrolls games are unique, and uniquely successful, for a reason

I disagree with everything you say here.

I became Godlike in Morrowind in < 20 Hours.

Making everything Static leveled only excaberates the problems: Once they find where the best loot and safest monsters with the greatest Experience-per-kill (Yes, it's in TES too - just more complex due to the number of Experience bars to track), then powerlevel, and become godlike ridiculously quickly.

Also, did you even play Skyrim? Head to Shearpoint at level 5... Or try your luck against some giants. How about you plunge into a Dwemer ruin? That Dwemer Centurian Master would love to meet you.

Skyrim's level scaling is the best I've ever seen in any TES game - For the most part, the monsters are static, but the world, unlike what you seem to want, is open. Making the area around Solitude (Or any other Hold) a higher level than the area around Whiterun strains world credibility.

From what I've seen, Skyrim's level scaling is more "level Weighting" than "Level-matching" - you can still find plenty of lower-level enemies at high levels, and find plenty of high-level enemies at low levels.

Arguing that Dragons should be stronger than anything else in the game defeats the entire purpose - "I'm sorry, but you have to grind your way to level 40 before you can do the first real part of the main quest."

Personally, I love that bandits are level-scaled: The bandits you are fighting at level 40 are NOT the same ones you were fighting at level 5 - The ones you were fighting at level 5 are now all dead, thanks to you. Furthermore, "Bandit" is a catch-all term for enemy humanoids that make a living outside the law. The difference between a Bandit and Adventurer (Such as yourself) is Bandits are less socially-inept. Really - if ALL bandits could be easily killed by just anyone wandering around in Daedric armor after first picking up a sword three months ago, nobody would dare try being a bandit.

Dhovakiin: "Dragons cannot stand before me! What chance do you think you have?"
Bandit Warlord: "I'm guess I'm glad I'm not a Dragon" *Runs the Dhovakiin through*



Do you spend any time up at the Cloud district? *scoffs* Of course you don't, why am I asking?

Have you ever played Arena, Daggerfall, Battlespire, Morrowind, or Oblivion? It's obvious you haven't, if you think level-scaling isn't an integral part of ALL TES games. In fact, Morrowind's level scaling, aside from the bandits, is more aggressive than Skyrim's.

I watch Scamps, Ogrim, and Dremora give way to Winged Twilights, Dremora Lords, and Golden Saints in Daedric Ruins in Morrowind. I watch Skeletons and Bonewalkers give way to Greater Bonewalkers and Bonelords in the crypts. Dwemer Spiders (With the occassional Sphere) are almost totally replaced by Dwemer Centurians and a handful of Spheres at higher levels. Kwama Foragers get replaced by Kwama Soldiers in some mines. Corprus Stalkers get replaced with Ash Slaves and Ash Vampires.

Please learn to know what you're talking about.

Yep, played Morrowind a long time ago and still own it. I was speaking as to how the TES series is NOW, so stop assuming incorrectly.



Thank you for knowing what you're talking about.

One question to all the people who want no level scaling at all. Do you want me to not be able to start the game in whichever hold i choose? If you deem that say The Reach is farther from the start, so it gets higher level enemies, or Forsworn are more dangerous than normal bandits so they should be a high level enemy always... then aren't you ruining the openness of the game? Why should I have to level up before i can explore Markarth (for example).

I was referring to Oblivion with bandits in deadric... Reading comprehension. I dont, and neither do you, fight regular bandits or forsworn on level 50. There are some but most are higher level. There are plunderers, foragers, etc. High level bandits and forsworn. Pay attention. Nor do I find ebony gear on low levels or iron gear on high level. Pretty exclusively the other way around. There is literally an ebony or a glass thing in every container I come across. I'm level 45. I got 750 gold for taking klimmeks supplies to high hrothgar on level 14. If thats normal then its just plain stupid. Same goes many other quests. I get 500 or 750 gold for some meaningless fetch quest.



Ive never played wow. Nor any other mmorpg for that matter. Cant immerse myself into them. I'm saying this from the perspective of a role player who appreciates realism and challenge. Its ridiculously stupid and breaks my immersion when level scaling goes too far. You go play something else and stop seeming like such a whiny kid. People might take something you say seriously. Bethesda isnt your personal friend and you dont need to defend it so aggressively. I barely find minor potions anymore. Most are extreme or ultimate. Didnt find those on low levels. Nor do I find weak armour or weapons on high levels unless theyre on enemies that dont scale or placed there as such. All general loot and quest rewards are leveled.

I'd place realism above that. Leveling is so quick anyways it wouldnt even be a real problem. Being to able to do everything at any level is just boring. No challenge or sense of reward. Once you are able to kill those forsworn it actually feels like something.

Reading comprehension from the guy who's spelling mistakes are lighting up my screen, cute.

Yes, you DO fight regular bandits at level 50, regular forsworn and regular draugr at level 50. Stop. Lying. Even the UESP wiki and other posters will say you're wrong. Jesus, I just went to do Azura's star and was fighting weak Conjurers and one hittable skeletons!

I'll keep playing Skyrim because I like it, and I'm not defending Bethesda, I'm arguing because you're WRONG and lying! Stop making crap up.

Jesus, I wish I could record my game and show you the hide bracers and iron shields with frost resistance I just found at level 50 on the Thieves Guild quest line towards the end. I still think you're not even playing Skyrim, you're so wrong it hurts.

The only person here [censored]ting is yourself as I am continuously finding ebony and glass items in just about every single leveled chest I run into. Yeah I come into the occasional iron sword this weak ass bandit dropped, or those minor health potions lying strewn across the tables, but that's not the [censored] meat of the problem. It's the issue of higher level loot being shoveled into the players lap. This is even a bigger problem with special loot and daedric items that are based on the level you find them.

Isn't that technically turning it into a linear RPG? Go A, then B, then C, then win! I was always under the assumption TES was about freedom and choice? The whole reason they have level scaling is to try and meld that freedom whilst still giving a challenge. Is it as good as it will get? No. Will it improve next TES (assuming scaling is still there - which seems like a safe bet)? Yes.

That could surely be solved by removing such items from the leveled loot lists and making them hand placed. However this also comes with a drawback in that players will know where such items are and beeline for them. The loot still ends up in said players lap, and even earlier as there are countless ways to get through a dungeon.

The weak stuff is also throughout chests, and what the hell is the problem with finding any higher level stuff as you level up? Why would you only want to find low level stuff?

You don't get that this other guy is arguing that there is ONLY high level stuff at a high level, that's wrong and it's a lie and even you acknowledged it. Those weak ass bandits? Proof that level scaling isn't across the board.

/THE END

If you could please stop acting like such an annoying kid? Pretty please.

There are a few regular bandits, forsworn or draugr but most of them are higher level. The regular once are very rare. Draugr are scourges or wights, forsworn are plunderers or foragers and bandits are called something I cant remember. There is also the occasional low level gear but that doesnt change the fact that most gear is leveled. Especially gear found in containers.

The irony is that the places where leveling would be needed, like spells (since there is no variety at least make the existing ones a bit more useful), it doesnt exist. In the case of deadric artifacts it was even worse from Oblivion. Instead of the quests being level restricted the artifacts are instead scaled.

To finish this with your style: NO U, YOURE LYING AND WRONG

You, sir, described exactly how Morrowind's level scaling worked.

And we aren't "Defending a bad decision made by Bethesda." We are defending a facet of the game we like. Please report your level 5 self to the nearest giant encampment immediately.

Nope, they're not rare at all. I still run through entire dungeons with low level Draugr and regular bandits and Forsworn. Some level up, most do not. Most gear isn't leveled either, like I said I'm finding hide braces, iron shields, iron daggers and weak stuff everywhere at level 50.

UESP Wiki, me and a bunch of people have proven you're wrong. Drop it and move on.

Holy [censored] you're a modern day Joseph McCarthy. How is he [censored]ting if I'm running into the same problems as he is? I as well wish I could show you the absurd amount of [censored] high level loot i'm finding. We're also [censored] finding occasional hide bracers but it shies in comparison to the incredible amount of ebony/glass loot we're (Archy and I) finding. If that's [censored] to you, then so be it. I don't give a flying [censored] if you think we're lying at this point. We wouldn't be sharing or spinning up [censored] for the sake of bashing Bethesda's RPG. Get over your self.

I dont want to find high level stuff too often because it takes off the sense of reward. Having ten ebony swords after one dungeon isnt fun. They should be something rare on all levels. Smiths dont suddenly start making ebony swords as you reach level 40 and go drop them off to dungeons. High level items should be rare and usually hand placed. If I said that there is no low level gear at all then I was exaggerating. There is a tiny amount.



I never said I wanted a carbon copy of Morrowind's level scaling. It had its flaws too. Becoming too strong too easily was one of them. It also had the problem with high level enemies and gear suddenly appearing although it wasnt as big.

And as I also already said there are things that arent level scaled. Giants, wilderness creatures and a few other things being some of them. That doesnt change anything though. The issues are still there.

Even if I did find a ton of low level loot and enemies (which I dont) I still find a ton of high level loot and enemies as well. Thats the real problem. It makes dungeon crawling boring and removes all sense of reward from defeating something or finding stuff. It also makes gold far too easy to get. All of that removes challenge. High level loot and enemies should be rare and shouldnt suddenly show up as you level.

Yeah, you've never found 10 ebony swords after one dungeon. I might find one, rarely and by that point I can already smith a hundred if I want to.

Your arguments make no sense, the system you're arguing for would be complete [censored] in Skyrim. Nobody wants a segmented landmass with areas you can only access at certain points, and even so Skyrim HAS places like that. High up in the mountains are places that are out of your level. Giants are set at like level 30, so you're going to get rocked until you level to that point, etc.

You can also find high level stuff at low levels, and way more low level stuff at high levels. This argument makes you sound like the guy who says every dungeon is identical, you must have a unique copy of the game or something. I don't get it.

I mean I literally found 8 low level items during a Dwemer ruin in the Thieves Guild quest line. I also find Dwarven armor and weapons no matter WHAT level I am when I go in Dwemer ruins.

I'm not cleaning up this mess.

This stays locked.