Right. Beth bought rights to the engine. Beth changed a few things, so, it is now a "new" engine. Right.

Sorry guys, that has 'logic fail' written all over it. Sure, its a newer VERSION, but still pretty much the same engine.

Nope, that isn't what this is all about at all. It's about the wrong assumption that Bethesda uses the same stuff since Morrowind. It's nonsense, absolute nonsense. Every game engine is developed over time, every single one. Also was gamebryo always used as middleware (at least since Fallout) and is not the full engine that Betehsda uses (it's several middlewares and a lot of their own work). Skyrim had the most changes and updates ever in BGS history of making games since Morrowind (new rendering engine, new animation engine (HKX instead of KF), new script engine, radiant quests, ...) and yes it deserved the term "new" imo. for that.

But ok people stay in your crazy believe that Bethesda is using the same stuff since Morrowind. Some people really believe that Skyrim still uses a waypoint system. I don't care about the crazyness here anymore.

Updates and changes. But its not the same engine. Right. It's an UPDATED version. Just like a C2 is an UPDATED version of the C1. It is STILL a Corvette.

I disagree with your position. You aren't going to change my mind, I am not going to change yours. I am going to leave it at that.

Yeah Unreal 4 is the same as the first Unreal I know.

The same clearly to see:

http://blog.martincrownover.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/unreal1.jpg

http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/unreal4a.jpg

Let it go. No one here is attacking Bethesda as using the exact same technology as MW. Of course, it has been updated and enhanced. You are arguing over what to call it. Some peeps call it Gamebryo out of habit. Some call it Creation. Whatever. It is the same thing. Purely semantics

As I explained "these semantics" shift the focus away from the real problems.

But people love their myths and won't stop spreading nonsense. Would be bad if we hadn't anything to make snarky cynical comments about, if not real then lets invent it.

By the logic that Creation is Gamebryo, basically all engines are still the Doom engine since even most modern engines use Doom code since it worked so damn well.

What "real" problems? The fact that it still is not optimized? Doesn't support 64 bit? Does it still render EVERYTHING in line of sight? Whether you can actually see it or not?

Technically we don't know that they haven't updated it to support 64 bit (they can, and probably have). However based on the screens I'd say you're right about the lack of occlusion culling. But we'll see.

What I'm actually more disappointed with is that they clearly haven't gone with some better tree/foliage middleware, such as SpeedTree. Because I want dem bendy trees from the Witcher! Especially because the trees mostly have no leaves, it'd be a good way to add a bit of motion into the environment and make it look a bit more untamed and wild.

Fun fact: they used SpeedTree for Oblivion, but with the Creation Engine they built their own in-house system for handling trees and foliage.

They used speedtree all the way back in Oblivion and everyone hated it, they used it again in Fo3, and people still hated it

Saying the creation engine is the same engine as the first gamebryo is like saying prince Harry and the Queen of England are the same person.

Or like windows 10 is an update of windows 3

I would say compiling for the PS3 Cell cpu and the 360 PowerPc cpu is an bit harder than for X64 then you can do x86.

Occlusion culling was an issue earlier, in Oblivion main issue was that if you saw part of an object it all had to be rendered, however cell size has mostly been an memory issue not gpu.

Who here has made snarky comments about Creation Engine?

Yeah, but it was in its infancy then, and has since gone on to create almost all of the best looking foliage in recent games (and movies).

Hell, they don't have to use SpeedTree per se, just as long as they update their internal system to include features seen in other games (nice bending and swaying of foliage in particular). Having foliage be as static as it was in previous games (as it appeared to be in the trailer) just feels very stiff nowadays. And it's not a dramatically performance taxing feature; it's one of those visual tweaks that hugely affects the mood of a scene whilst taking up significantly less processing power than most far less noticeable graphics fixes.

The other thing it that whilst 'procedural' was a bit of a dirty word ten years ago - and it definitely made Oblivion feel a bit plain - it has since become very powerful, particularly when it comes to flora populating (hardly surprising, given that all flora grows procedurally in real life). I actually have more confidence in games that generate their foliage using good procedural technology than I do in Bethesda's individually hand-placed method.

There was very visible tree movement and bending in the trailer, especially during the scene in which the player was exiting the vault.

Likely the result of them adding in verlet physics for objects in Skyrim's Dawnguard DLC, which, as shown in the Skyrim gamejam video, could be used for things such as fat giants, which bent a tree branch as it moved past it.

As seen here at 4:04(the fat giant thing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGIgXeGC6Dg

All of their foliage since Oblivion has had a slight, constant tremble to it - well actually, some very big trees don't, but anyway - however it doesn't really change much and has no directionality. Also, the grass/shrubs in particular feel deficient - they have dozens of shots showing grass, even with the vertibird landing in the middle of a field, and there's just no rustling or movement, beyond the few millimeters of preset sway animation.

I just look at shots like that stormy brahmin scene, and think it'd really add to the mood with some dramatic movement in those trees and grass. It's not a graphics [censored] thing, it's more of an art direction thing.

I don't think wind physics from a landing verti-bird were very high on the list of 'must-haves' when they were developing the game.....

NetImmerse -> Gamebryo -> Creation Engine. It's not a myth. There's no conspiracy here. It's not even being snarky. It's just plain fact that they started at one end and progressed to the other.

Basic proof is that they all still use the proprietary NetImmerse .nif files. Yes, they've been tweaked and improved over the years, but they're still the same basic mesh format they've been using for 15 years now. In much the same way HTML 5 is still the same basic HTML we've been using since 1997.

There isn't necessarily anything wrong with this unless you end up with the same old bugs we've seen for years and can recognize instantly as belonging to their implementation of the engine.

Arthmoor posting on Fallout forums?

Has the sky gone dark and is the ground opening up yet?

That's because what Arthmoor said is correct.

Never said it wasn't.

All I said was that it was odd he was here, given that he normally stays on AFKMods or the Skyrim section.

Arthmoor! Are you just here to drop knowledge bombs on us, or will you be involved in the Fallout 4 modding community when that comes to exist? I don't know your involvement for Fallout, but I love you forever for what you've done for the TES modding community.

I remember reading a few unofficial patch notes for Skyrim mentioning engine-specific bugs that were present in Oblivion and couldn't be fixed by a simple unofficial patch; could you maybe talk about some of that? You're more familiar with these games under the hood than anyone here, and I'd appreciate some knowledge.

I guess I read one of your comments differently or wrongly on page 3. That is why I thought you made that comment why Arthmoor is posting here.

Anyways I think Arthmoor posted here because he might be making mods for Fallout 4 as well. Which right now can be debatable if he returns.