This

But what about GOOD slavery? where you treat the slave as equal as to your family. feeding them, sheltering, providing medicine and perhaps even paying them for extra hard work... this kind of slavery where he would have a better life than not being under your ownership.. is it still evil from your point of view?

according to you. Sorry, but its a grey area for me and others.

okay stop getting butt hurt over this. we are talking about a game. in truth probably none of us would survive in the wasteland. so calm down. its just a game. by the way someone should tell todd howard it is a game. i thank he belives its real....

Yes, you are and others clearly think it's a grey area, but that doesn't make it so. Sorry. (You can justify any idiotic opinion with this logic, "hey me and others thought it was a good idea!")

Anyway, I'd say this has run it's course. Fascinating how the idea of owning another person is still relatively acceptable to some, so much so as to be painted as a grey area.

Like I said. According to you.
You saying it is not a grey area doesn't make it so either.
Big ups for calling me an idiot, though. Class move.
This is where we agree to disagree and move on with our day(s).

I have given reasons to support my position, I have put forth an argument. So far, you havent done the same. Simply repeating "I think it's a grey area." Is not an argument. Nor is coming up with these contrived scenarios in which it is necessary to own someone to survive.

As for calling you an idiot, what? Might want to re read that. At no point did I call you an idiot, I didn't even call your position idiotic.

Anyhow, that's fine with me. Seems this is going nowhere.

You say "GOOD slavery" as if such a thing actually exists, just like there's GOOD spousal abuse and GOOD torture and GOOD murder. "Marginally more humane" slavery would be a better term.

You can't treat someone you claim to own the same as you treat your family, unless you also claim to own your family. In which case, you aren't treating them well either.

You can have a live in servant that's a free person. I doubt you'd treat them as your equal (you'd still expect them to follow your orders as your servant obviously, something you wouldn't expect from an equal).

Slavery strips a person of their identity as a person and grafts onto them the identity of an object. Of something to be bought, sold, and owned. Something that can never be equal to someone who is free.

To me it's a grey area. You could argue that keeping somebody against their will away from other people isn't moral, but that's exactly what a prison system does. Of course, there are different degrees of it. You could treat them in a relatively civil manner and just force them to do labor, or you could be a cruel tyrant.

in prison, they are not being abused (okay, at least not SUPPOSED TO BE), are not considered less then human, are the POINT of prison is to try and get them to better themselves, it does not work 99% of the time, but it is there. It also does not force them to do backbreaking work whenever or however you want nor are they forced to do anything inhumane.

Comparing the modern prison system to slavery displays a complete misunderstanding of how the corrections system works, and how slavery works. It's not a good anology.

I think PKMN12 and Rel dovakin make fantastic points with the above posts.

Why are people assuming you need to give the slaves food and water? At best they get the scraps that your actual citizens don't want to eat themselves along with the unclean portions of water and if even that sounds like wasted resources just don't feed them and let thirst claim them.

You DEFINITELY don't waste your medical resources on an enslaved raider that refuses to reform. If they get sick or injured its no ones problem but their own.

As far as guarding them its really not as big a deal as its being made out to be. You feed and pay enough citizenns to cover it in shifts like in the real world and you'll mostly be fine.


I don't care about the morality aspect of the argument. How is just killing every raider you see any more moral when there's a chance they can reform?


I choose to harness the potential of the otherwise useless threats.

That's how we treat prisoners in America. They do a crime they go to prison and work 8 hours for a $1 a day. I've seen a woman guard on a prison show tell a man that "if he didn't want to get [censored] he shouldn't have done the crime." A guy was [censored] over 200 times over check fraud and when he told the prison board they told him to "learn how to fight". Most of them haven't actually killed anyone. They haven't even committed violent crimes. 1/100 are probably 100% innocent.

Compare that to a raider. They are mass murderers.

These are active raiders mind you. If they have stopped raiding on their own then that's completely different.

The first option is death and if they really want to live that badly then I might consider alternative options if we actually had a need for something like that.

Lemme get this straight, your going to reform them by "At best they get the scraps that your actual citizens don't want to eat themselves along with the unclean portions of water and if even that sounds like wasted resources just don't feed them and let thirst claim them" yeah that sounds logical. Death via dehydration or starvation, thats a real reformer.

That much is obvious. Your hilarious "When there is a chance they can reform" thrown in was truly the icing on the cake that is this post.

Reality tv is not real life. Just an fyi.

well family isnt that bad of a comparison since you do basically OWN your newborn until like the age of 7 i believe everything that child does you are legally responsible for just as with a slave. but then with the age of 7 the child will be granted some personal legal status.

How do you expect them to reform if you treat them in a cruel and inhumane manner? Letting their peers' wounds fester and get infected, potentially allowing for the spread of disease, all the while keeping them malnourished and unhealthy? That's the kind of treatment that makes someone become a nice person, I'm sure. You're certainly one for leading by example, aren't you?

At least I have the courtesy to just outright kill a hostile threat rather than let them die of dehydration or starvation over the course of days.

Agreed.

It is the lesser of two evils.

And Serfdom is only slightly better.

What is worse is watching people try to justify institutional slavery.

Once again a subject I'd rather Bethesda is careful with and lets the modders push the boundaries.

So your family consists only of people below the age of seven? Also, being responsible for someone is not the same thing as owning them. At school, teachers are responsible for their students. They do not own them. Even when they haven't turned seven yet.

Also, newborns do have have personal legal status. That's why when horrible things happen to them (which we can't get into on this forum), it is considered a crime.

A slave doesn't enjoy those same protections. You can shoot them in the face and suffer no legal repercussions because it was just a slave.

Oh, you are being https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF6khtUkm2A to think that people aren't getting [censored] in prison's here in America. I can't wait for a raider [censored] mod to come out.

I believe (and may be totally wrong about it) that you actually own your biological under 7 year old. As for slaves not enjoying the same protections of mistreatment it may be the case that slaves werent protected, perhaps not legally (im not so sure about the roman empire here werent they somewhat protected? in jewish society they were.) but you sure damn would suffer in your reputation if you mistreated your slaves and with the new wasteland justice one could establish a new rule and declare all brutal/heavy mistreatment of slaves as illigal.

Why is it that slavery=equals abuse? I know the whole "person is a property" thing is bad, but why is it that there "always" abuse as well?

Uuuhh, no. I was pointing out the obvious fact that reality tv is designed for ratings. The fact that sixual assault happens in prison doesnt change that fact that comparing prison to slavery is nonsense. People in prison are not supposed to be [censored], they have rights. A slave has none.

As for the second part of your post, fascinating.

Edit:Whats up with the censorship filter? The word for sixual assault is censored? How does that make sense?

I'd say that viewing someone as a thing/making them view themselves as a thing is abuse in and of itself. And as slavery requires you to view a slave as something you can own, it is inherently abusive.

Their either smart enough to reform or they can work themselves to death or be killed anyhow when they try to rebel. We're the ones with the guns, they aren't.




Same thing I said to Laughing Storm, the only options they get are to cooperate with society or work hemselves to death, orthey can be stupid and try to cause trouble and get shot for it. On average them rebeling will only cause a handful of deaths. Not much more than the initial attack; at least with my methop I'm replenishing man power while your killing every raider you see as well as losing the same citizens. As for your second point, if were claiming morality killing is killing. Don't delude yourself into thinking you have some moralhigh ground.

I really hope you're not from the U.S. Many parts of the prison system is EXACTLY like that. You're expected to pay for your time in prison (it it has been privatized), meaning you pretty much have to do work in prison, otherwise you'll have a huge debt and likely be jailed again.

Aside from that, you also have to balance the cruelty of slavery in the post apocalyptic world. The barbarism there is likely worse than anything you'd see in a third world country. Depending on the society and how they treat their slaves, it could very well be a step up from life in the wasteland. Of course, if it's Caesar's Legion, not so much.