Precisely why we shouldn't have levelled uniques. You know from wiki or previous playthroughs that it is levelled, but your character has no idea in game, yet ends up delaying the quest for 20 odd levels to get the best version. Not good design, there should be low level items for low level quests, more powerful ones for higher level quests. That is how the Daedric artefcts worked, and no one complained.

yea thats why i dont like the fixed scaling,i had to force myself to check on wiki or faq,to find out which unique weapons have fixed scaling,not fair for me just because i complete the quest on low level just because i dont know what the reward and how the reward works

No. Bad Idea unless its optional, but its too much hard work wasted for opt thing.

Because I want to role play. And when I role play I want the natural feeling that I can find about anything and use about anything, just as a real character can.

Edit: ive edited for adding red color of rage.

I actually like this idea. There was a mod for Oblivion that did exactly that (http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2119), and I loved it. I thought it was dumb that if you did certain quests at certain levels you would get a subpar reward compared to if you did it at a higher level. It could actually gimp your character by not having a "good" weapon at a certain level because you beat a quest earlier and were stuck with an underleveled version (not including some quests that had bugged rewards that would give you the weaker reward the higher level you were, as opposed to the stronger one at a lower level). I would be completely okay with quest item scaling for certain (IE unique, rare, named) items, although I think it would be better if there was no levled rewards at all akin to Morrowind. If you can do a hard quest at a lower level you deserve that strong item.

An alternative way to do it is require the item to be "leveled up" by doing some sort of task. IE you do a quest where you defeat an anciet vampire and are given a sword that does fire damage. You level up to a certain level range and can go back to the quest giver for another simple task "Kill X vampires" that upon completion will give you the higher level/"leveled" version of that weapon/item.

If you're going to use that justification, why not go the full way. Why don't they just start you at the highest level with all the best loot and all the quests completed as well.

I actually like this idea if they manage to do it conservatively (hopefully redundant for Skyrim), but if Skyrim features the same crappy item scaling system as Oblivion did, where unique weapons would be worse the sooner you got them (forcing you to wait with getting them until you are beyond their maximum level), then I'll be rather disappointed.

Note to self: Oh man, I should get kicked outta school for writing that ridiculously long sentence :blush:

Ideas like that ruined Oblivion. I'm okay with Radiant story giving the player an item they'd use (Player has Marksman Highest, they get a Bow, Player Has Two-hand highest and Great Sword Perked, they get a claymore) but direct loot level scaling ruined exploration for Oblivion. If this feature is confirmed, I literally will not buy Skyrim, since the only vote Bethesda would listen to at that point is the dollar vote.


The main reason this scaled stuff doesn't work in either OP's suggestion or how it was done in Oblivion, is it basically forces the player to reach the highest written loot level before doing anything in the game. OP's idea on the other hand, completely bypasses the need for more than 1 or 2 items per type. I really don't want Skyrim to turn into Fable 3, thanks.

I'm all sure that whatever you said was (somewhat maybe possibly not but still worth considering or something like that) worth reading, and I applaud you for that (not.)

Now please re-type your message in a language I can understand. Thanks.

I'm going to have a try with this:

There should be harder and easier quests with no scaling difficulty what so ever. Some quests (main quest for example) should have at least some level scaling. Rewards should be determined by the difficulty of the quest.

This has two problems: 1) player accidentally running into way too hard quests and 2) getting that über sword that makes everything too easy and stale for a long time.
The first one is easy: the game should tell us how difficult a quest is (this could be turned off if you like surprises).

I think this would fix the second problem:
Weapons and armor way over your repair skill (or level) eat through your repair hammers fast. This forces you to use them wisely or pay the price.

Edit: Oh, wait. One more thing: Quests below your level should probably level with you. Or who would like a level 5 quest with steel sword as a reward at level 50? They could stay at least 10 levels below the players level so they would still be easyish but not so easy that there wouldn't be any sense in completing them.

I have to say I really hated the level scaling unique weapons in Oblivion. After I found out that uber unique weapons would be stuck at the level you got them at instead of their maximum potential level if you had waiting until you were level 30 essentally forced me to start a new game, run to the mountans and and use "techniques" to level up fast to level 30 in order to take full advantage of the unique items from quests. Whatever Beth ends up doing I surely hope they fix this problem either by having the unique weapons level up with you until you reach that level 30 mark or just making them have their maximum potental right off the bat. I could care less how they address the problem, just so that they address it so I'm not forced to level all the way up to level 30 before being able to do anything in the game. :twirl:

See, I just don't understand any of this.

No one "forced" you to do anything. If you want to read hintbooks, powergame, and min/max, that's your choice.

I don't see "I had to wait to get that sword, so that it would be max power" as any different than "I had to wait to kill that bandit, so he'd have an ebony sword instead of an iron one".

You get an item reasonable for the level you're at, and the challenge you faced to get it. If you get it at level 10, it's a level 10 sword. And it'll be good for level 10. Get it at level 30, it'll be level 30. And good for level 30. What's the problem?


Meh, whatever.

I'm not talking about regular equipment and such. I'm talking about the unique weapons in the game. Meaning there is only one of those weapons in the game. Take the frost sword in Oblivion that you get once you complete the quest to help out the farmers. I got it at level 3 because it was a quest at the very first town/city I encountered. I loved the look of the sword, but it became obsolute very fast because of the level scaling of the weapon. There is no other weapon in the game of that type/look, it is unique. Thus, since I loved that sword and really wanted to use it at higher levels I was unable to do so because I had not waited until I was a much much higher level so that the weapon could reach it's highest potential before completing the quest. I can't very well go out and get another from some bady somwhere, so I'm svck unless I wait to do that quest until I have leveled up considerably.

Thus all I really care about is that I don't feel like I'm being cheating out of a uber unique weapon that supposedly to be the strongest in the game all because I did not wait until I was level 30 to get it. That is all I mean.

What an incredibly narrow-minded post.

The problem is, it ruins the sense of exploration, and replaces it with formulaic and predictable results. By knowing unique rewards are going to be "Better" if obtained at a later level, there's very heavy incentive to wait, so that unique items aren't outclassed by Dwemer items. The problem comes in, when the loot and reward scaling is so heavily integrated, that the player can effectively predict a reward without ever having done the quest, ironically making these scaled items more predictable than static items.

The bandit example is yet another violator of exploration incentive. The formulaic approach taken to the enemies in the game, means you always know what's around the next bend. Go to Aylied ruins at level 10? Gonna see bandits or Mauraders in Mythil/Dwarven. Go to same or totally new ruins at level 20? Going to see either Daedric Mauraders/Glass Bandits. Once you deduce the formula (Which doesn't take long, trust me), the game takes a nosedive in every aspect that involves exploration.

I think that's what makes Morrowind still hold up after all these years. You can still dive into an unkown dungeon and not know if you're going to be faced with a level 3 bandit with a chitin club, or an Ebony Clad warlord bandit-king with a Daedric Claymore. In Oblivion, you know, I'm this level, so this will be here 100% of the time.


The only way enemy and their loot scaling works, is to have weighted, scaled randoms. For example, a particular bandit slot would have a 50% chance to spawn at "Petty" level. 35% chance to spawn as "Underling", 13% to spawn as "Lieutenant" and 2% chance to spawn as "Right-Hand". Boss class should always be static though, and the "Boss" sets the min/max level range of the underlings, and even when scaling, the equipment would have to be weighted, random on the scale for the random enemies. For random to be effective, you don't want to write-out the higher tiers of equipment, but you also don't want them to become laughably common as they were in Oblivion, so supplementing hand-placed instances with an exceedingly low weighted ratio would work.

Find a different sheild then?
I get this guys point... because honestly in OB my character is wearing leather because it looks best for his class and style. But the downside is, it gives almost no armour bonus so I have to rely on agaily and speed more than armour, which is another thing I really like. So, no scaling armour!

I have to agree that Oblivion's version was terrible.There were many times I couldn't do quests until lvl 20-25 because I didn't want the weapon to be crap.

Honestly,I think it would be better to give them one setting and that's how it will be rated.

I mean who was ever like "Oooh cool I have this leveled weapon that's kind of strong that's so awesome that I'll out level it it a few hours!"?

I'd rather have Morrowind's system of just having the legendary/powerful weapons having one setting:powerful.

Ugly_guy - I see a slight difference in what you're talking about and what those other people I quoted were. You're talking about the whole general "Oblivion's absolutist level scaling system svcked", which we (I think) all agree with.


But those other people are talking about powergaming. "I know that Item X can have 30% spell reflect if I get it after level 20. And I must have Max Power?! So the game is forcing me to hold off on these quests." See, that's not about the general level scaling. Like I said, that's about powergaming. Reading hintbooks & faqs, in order to find out The Best? gear, and playing specifically to get that gear.


Now, Fallout 3 didn't have that issue, since it didn't have enchantments - an AK47 is an AK47. The unique guns had better stats, but there wasn't any "+X Accuracy" enchantment to scale to different levels. (Of course, there was still powergaming in that game - plenty of threads on the forums about "Ok, first thing you do is go to Rivit City to get the Intelligence bobblehead and talk Harkness out of his unique plasma rifle." Personally, I don't see the attraction of playing that way, but some people do.... but it's still their choice. No one is "forcing" them to do these things.)


So, yeah.... Skyrim is going to have a scaling system more like Fallout 3's than Oblivion's. Which sounds great - Oblivion's general mob scaling blew. But that has nothing to do with scaled quest rewards. (If you think about it, a "scaled reward" isn't really any different than a list of different rewards they give you depending on when you get the quest - "Radiant Story" gives you "go rescue the Mayor's daughter. She's being held in " Okay, the rewards at lv 10/20/30/40 could be Dawnblade Mk1 / Dawnblade 2 / Dawnblade 3 / Dawnblade 4. Or they could be Dawnblade / Staff of Noon / Robes of Dusk / Night's Edge. Either way, it's giving a different reward at different levels. And either way, someone's going to claim they were "forced" to play a certain way. Actually, the "scaled" version is better - at least you know you'll get a sword.)

It all seems good - whichever level you end up getting Sidequest #34, you'll get a reward appropriate for your level and the challenge. :shrug:

Probably one of the worst ideas I've heard of in awhile.

Hell no.

And while we are talking about this, I expect to see this before you can get Umbra :

'You are not powerful or renowned enough for the Prince to ask for your help ( you must be level 45 to begin this quest ).'

I don't like this idea either, not only does it take us right back to Ob style levelled rewards but now we also know the reward is most likely a bow or a 2H sword etc. Bad enough the first time you accept a RS quest, and knowing about this is my fault for visiting the forums, it gets worse the 2nd, 3rd, 4th Q you take. Just how many RS quest reward bows can there be?

"But what point would there be in rewarding an archer with a 2H sword?"

Point? None, no point at all. But asking about the point is to totally miss the point. Treasure is treasure, I like to be surprised and nine times out of ten I couldn't care less if my precious find is of any use to me. I may never use a sword for the entire game but I take great pleasure in viewing my collection of oh so shiny unique finds :twirl:

I have an image in my my mind of Todd sitting at his desk, shaking his head, asking "Why don't they like level scaling? I mean it's great, constant challenge, exploit free, it's the perfect way to ensure balanced combat. Why can't they see that? Why". Here's a hint Todd, from me. I do not consider combat to be the main focus of any game calling itself an RPG and so long as you insist on putting those three letters on the box I will insist on on finding an RPG inside.

A very bad idea

High level Items are likely to be guarded by high level creatures and could also be stored in chests with high level locks in some cases. Should you be able to avoid those who guard the high level item or even kill them then you deserve it.

No Oblivion scaling nor anything that somewhat resembles it. Never again.

Usually I'm not for level scaling. An object should have intinsic value and not wait to be discovered by the player to get its features determinated. The only thong which can change is the player's ability to use them. Otherwise :

1. The world seems to revolve around the player in a very solipsistic fashion. This ruins the immersiveness because you lose the feeling of walking into an organic, living world.
2. The player who wants to get the best items (and who don't?) is forced to wait to reach high levels before finishing any quest whose reward is levelled. This ruins the pleasure of playing the game.
3. The player who wants to collect all enchanted items, or all shields, or all anything, fears to level up because he knows that if he does, his access to low level items he hasn't found yet may be removed.
4. By combining 2 and 3, you remove pleasure from the game and make it a real hell.

In other words, I hate level scaling of any kind.

?

If a player want to cheat let him cheat, in a single player game the only thing ruined by cheating is cheating player's fun!


And I think difficulty and rewards should not scale, it makes the game world irrealistic and artificial

This could work, but I would only have it applied to a certain items. Artifacts and the like that, in lore, get more powerful depending on the power of the one who wields it. This shouldn't be applied to normal equipment IMO.

I'd rather have it like this, than how it was in Oblivion. Waiting with quests until you've reached a certain level... :facepalm: thank the Force for the Quest Award Leveller mod.


Also a good idea. Though I doubt it would work well with Bethesda's appearent "the player can go anywhere and do anything in the game right off the bat"-code.

My biggest concern about level scaling is leveled loot and leveled quest awards - the quest awards can be solved with automatic leveling, but all the loot in the game?
Limiting my dungeon loot because I looted the dungeon at level 5? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mABmZETHaRE :biggrin:

How about this items level with your skill for said item. You get better with 2 handed swords then that item does more damage. But it only goes up to a point making you get a new weapon. Or better yet. Back to the way Morrowind and other RPGs. If you want to use a item you must meet its skill tree requirments.

But hey I know how kids want to beat a game in 3 hours then go back to COD so lets have it so everything levels with you set the game to easy skip everything get the main quest done fast travel to all locations and beat the game in 3 hours and go back to COD because we have add.