I have noticed a HUGE surplus in creation myths, but a TOTAL dirth of eschatologies.

It is supposed that the world-time stream has closed innumerable times before mundus---, with resulting artifacts like the Mnemoli sticking around--- so why arent there more eschatologies?


And I dont want a pathetic answer like 'the myths of the end of the world have been removed when time became linear.' either, because it obviously isnt so, or the Mnemoli wouldnt pop up anymore when the dragon breaks.


The only Eschatology I can find is in the love letter.

Muthsera Wierd,

I have no answer for you. Shall we create some?

___TWM

Aldugaggashedashinvingas

Yes, that is totally my 18th century spell-it-as-you-like take on the word, or rather my nynteeth seshury spullin ov it.

The aldugaddas (best shot myself) are note true Eschatologies, but are stories about 'how the end of the age was averted'-- or, "the myth of how Dagon always fails."


it could be seen as a semi-eschatology, in that it provides a mythic open-end to the universe-- The force that would close it is halted, aborted, or curtailed, resulting in continuation of what was.

However, it is not congruent with the creation mythos' cycles, which involves creation from decay. It instead imposes 'eternal decay' on the world.

Love Letter provides the "Joyful union at the closure, from which the new life springs" which is required to satisfy the creation myth cycle.


There are insufficient eschatologies, to match all the creation cycle myths.

Well Akatosh eats Greedy Man's lower legs at least once. :meh:

(Dearth not dirth).

Because creation myths inform a culture in a more fundamental way than apocalyptic literature, and laying the sociological foundations is mostly what MK the Mythographer has been doing most of the time, and is, in fact, still doing. Besides, end of the world scenarios have been done to death in other games. The kalpa-eating has been explored in the Aldudaggas and Mor's Lament too, though not in much detail. And besides, if the "the world-time stream has closed innumerable times before mundus", it's not terribly important or even relevant to the current age, until it actually happens. One gets the feeling it's also rather obscure anyway (especially compared to creation myths), so wouldn't be widely described or commented on.

yeah, but Dagon never returns to being Leaper king, and time never returns to cyclical. this implies that new worldskins cannot be; however, that would have resulted in a NEW creation myth, as that kind of mythic deviation would have altered its own origin.

It means that the "endless universe" is a lie, perpetuated by new lies. The love letter would seem to punctuate that lie rather strongly.... The two are fundementally incompatible.


The complete retconn of circular time with linear time would have totally re-written the fabric of reality, and as such the creation story would have changed too. (A la, the Tribunal.) It did not, suggesting that the Aldugadda's are either 1) not well thought out, or 2) outright lies.

Considering that the Aldugaddas come from stories depicting the Aedra as heroic protectors of men and the mundus, and that even Vivec calls the Aedra liars, I will go with the latter. (It also goes better with how I feel MK's brain works. It isnt like him to not think about things from many angles at once.)


It seems to me that Greedy Man has hidden "The end of the world", so that it wont come about, and considers himself VERY clever in doing so. Too bad there is that little artifact from the 5th era........



Albides---

The end of the world is equally important as the beginning, as the two ultimately come about at the same time, and can be seen as the exact same event, just from different points of view. That is kind of the point in mythopoeic study, no? That myths occur again and again--- One cannot have a mythopoeic beginning, if it does not summarily also have an end. That is how Mythopoeic ritual gains its power-- by recreating the event in the way you want it to unfold, you replace the previous in the current now, and through this re-shape reality. The whole structure fails when it cannot repeat.

MK's desire to avoid penning them is beside the point. EVERY culture with a creation story, has an ENDING story too, as they are ultimately the exact same thing. (The creation of Nirn, is also the story of the downfall of primal state, and is itself an eschatology.)


http://books.google.com/books?id=VBWQranuVLYC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=%22both+beginning+and+end%22&source=web&ots=Cw1ZM7pPB7&sig=cis8lQi77mQNbDLv4remoE-4Bow&hl=en#PPA147,M1

Umaril's father is only what could be assumed to be a surviver of a previous Kalpa that managed to walkabout. It's a shame that story isn't fleshed out more.

The reason why no one likes discussing the end of the world is that it is permanent. Before it wasn't, but since Mundus was made the end is the end, there's no beginning to go back to. Why make stories about something so grim?

Again, it depends on vantage point. I suppose one could look at in the Man/Mer dichotomy VS the creation of Nirn:


The Mer hold that it is a perverse creation, which destroyed a pure one. To the Mer, the "Creation story" is really an eschatology. A story of how the world was destroyed, and perverted by a heinous plot.

The Men hold that it was a glorious creation made willingly through love.

(The intercepts suggest that Lorkhan created the plan for Mundus to undo a folly of the greedy Aedra, and to return the world to a fluxing state, as they had discovered a way to prevent their own endings and become crystalline, and imperfect. Thus, the formation of the Aedra from the grey maybe is also an ending of that state, into a theoretically endless one--- The creation of Nirn is the destruction of that world, and the creation of another theoretically endless one--- The reality could be argued that all are really the same world, with a communal closing/opening myth which has simply been retold slightly differently. The only thing that has not happened, is that the mortals of the mundus have not all ascended to godhood and immortality yet, and thus cannot be collapsed into a new world of uncertainty and change.)


Both are describing the exact same event, but through different eyes. This is a feature MK seems to use heavily.


I guess this would answer my own question, in that the creation stories ARE eschatologies.


as for your query mortazo--- One cannot understand what it means to be a beginning, if one does not understand that it is also an end.

No, they aren't. Otherwise, you wouldn't need this topic. One can be aware of their mythic origins without being aware of what came before it. I repeat that for someone living in the current age, previous ages just hold no import. Kalpas themselves are a recently introduced concept, and one which, judging from the way they're used, a relatively obscure theological term.

The idea of mythopoeia refers to the creation of myths. It's only ever been used as an adjective to refer to how Kagrenac controlled the heart. With or without knowledge of prior mythic landscape, this adjective still holds, as at the time it only ever referred to one myth. The recycling of myths is not terribly important because they are often the same myths: ?€?"If I could be assured the rude stars //Of our continuing houses// Would not already be in fits of remake..." says Mor to Pelinal.


I think you're playing fast and loose with the word eschatology, which only ever refers to the end of the world. Big emphasis on "end" since eschatos itself means "last" (though arguably it comes from a Western background, where time is linear and not cyclical) . Every large upset in the order of things is not an eschaton except in poetic terms. The Flood was not an eschaton. Neither was Marduk cutting Tiamat to pieces or Ialdabaoth's separation from the divine world or any number of comparable scenarios.

I've always kept silent on the issue of kalpas because I'm not exactly sure what to believe. As portrayed in the Aldudaggas, the period before the kalpa-turning shows a geography and political landscape not much different from what it is now, with a Red Mountain and a Snow Throat that gets eaten, becomes some formless "churning dragon stop" (Dragon Break or Dawn period, presumably), and then return, as we still have those landmarks:

In fact, after many looks east, west, south, and north, and seeing only the churning dragon stop around him, Dagon realied that at some point when he was begging with his eyes closed that Alduin had eaten him, mountaintop and all, and he had not heard the big chomp because he had been begging too loud. And he knew that the last world had been eaten entirely, except for its stolen portions, and that when the new kalpa began to form The Greedy Man (who never stayed trapped for long) would begin sticking these stolen portions back on in the craziest of places, and that he himself could never jump again until all was put back right.

Combined with the previous quote, that Mor and Pelinal's continuing houses are "already in fits of remake" makes me think the kalpa-turning might be something more along the lines of a fin de si?cle end-of-an-age sense than an end-of-the-world sense, despite the references to fiery destruction. And an end of the world that doesn't really change a whole lot....isn't really an end of the world.

(Wants to avoid the magick Jilling action of Dogs Body, but feels this is relevant all the same.)

Take the classic "Armageddon" of biblical fame; The world of mortal affairs is destroyed utterly, and a new divine order is established. It can be argued that this cycle could be easily closed if some additional information is ad-libbed, as the creation of iniquity was spontaneous from perfection. The return to a perfect state sets the stage for iniquity to form, and from this iniquity the mortal world's future is sealed.

Thus, the creation is a destruction, and the destruction a creation. (I dont want to invite an argument of "thats not how the bible says it!", it was a hypothetical.)

A better view is the already circular reincarnation cycle of Buddhist tradition, http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2007-03/wheel-of-life.jpg

Likewise, It could be argued that the ruminations of the Godhead is an attempt for it to understand its own origin, and that the events that transpire inside the Aurbis are cyclical, and eternal. The end result of the Nu-man, assailing the Tower, et al, is the creation of the Godhead, where it creates itself, over and over again, and that the stages of "Primal place", "Aedric spheres and Daedric voids", "Mundaic wheel", "Nu-Man", "Primal Place" .... is just where your current vantage point is inside the cycle.

This would imply that even "Mortal" spirits are not truly mortal, even if they forget themselves over and over again.


It's like a case of "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" but in this case, it is 'Which came first-- the beginning or the end?"

You're addressing my post with a general statement about how new worlds follow upheaval and upset. Fair enough, but I never denied this or even discussed it, so I'm not sure what you're expecting from me in response.

The point was that "Beginning" and "Ending" are relative to the current location within the eternal cycle.

When one is young, They think more in terms of their origin. as one gets older, they think more about their death.


Likewise, As the total age of the Aurbis progresses, the trend will be for deeper levels of subradiency. The difference between subgradience and ascendency is trivial, because both inevitably lead to the EXACT SAME place.


EG--

Weather you talk about the chicken laying the egg, or the Egg becomming the chicken, the cycle is the exact same thing.


I suspect the dwemer realized this, which why they anti-created, rather than sub-gradiented.

The Dichotomy of Man and Mer seems set in this conflict over the same thing. One looks forward, one looks back-- but both are looking toward the same event on the horizon, which is the ONLY event on the horizon.

Which leads to the thesis question:

So far, we only have ONE of the viewpoints, that of "Egg to chicken"

Where is the "Chicken to egg" at?

Lorkhan's Plan itself was the start of the end of the universe, Black and White mixed to form a new grey, until it was old and a singularity to be split by AE again to form two. The start of the new polarity, from which Lorkhan would build a new world of maybe.

AE splits O, to form Padomay and Anu, Aetherius and the Void, Akatosh and Lorkhan, until they bleed together creating the middle realms of Oblivion and Mundus, then further greys, until they are but one, and then AE once again divides the infinite O of the Grey Nothing.

But the cycle can be transcended both ways equally. If one were to go higher than the brush of Anu and Padomay through reverse creation, they would reach the lowest subgradient before the nu-man.

If one goes before the egg, one finds the chicken again.


"Ascendence" and "Descendence" is all a matter of opinion.


Again, we have the story of one, but not the other. This is lopsided.

There's a great number of creation myths in real-life mythological systems. As is in The Elder Scrolls Universe. That's just how it goes.

They still remain within the confines of AE and O, the division and the infinte nothing. If they leap to another Kalpa, the self that existed there has also at the same time left, leaving them in the same position as last time, so they leap again, and again (until they fail to jump/realise the purpose of the continuim and become part of the eventual destruction, due to AE (the eventuality of posibility)).

What, so Dagon is actually the friend of the universe, and Lorkhan the enemy of all creation, because if we don't have the kalpa end Something Mighty Bad Will Happen? Is this why we always see Dagon, why moral relativism is eroding in the series, why all our acts of heroism thwarting Dagon is actually Mighty Stupid but Foreordained, and why Snow Throat will be the last stand of Dagon before the kalpa (and the series) ends, writing a new elder scroll for the next one?

@ paw-prints: Aldudaggavelashadingas. Actually.

:evil:

Did you miss the part where the dragon admonishes Dagon and the Greedy Man for trying to hide bits of the world from being eaten? "Do you understand what would happen if you do that!?" etc------

Dagon is bad where ever he is. Right now he is just a douchbag, but one only to Mortal conception, but only good because of the restrictions put on him when shoved into the wheel by Akatosh. Lorkhan is at the height of good, in terms of continuing the normal flow of creation towards the gradient of O, so that everything may be reborn again; but it's only when he is dead that this works, any embodiment of him alive generally screws things up (e.g. Pelinal, Talos, Wulfharth, even more so when the actual heart is used, or the Brass God), or atleast they try to (again, this is Akatosh restricted a god, placing them in part of the wheel, Lorkhan being in the grey centre while dead, so that creation may flow as normal with eventual destruction-the reaching of the Grey Nothing).

It comes down to whether the Mundus is only cyclical, as in Buddhism, or if it's linear and heading toward a destiny where kalpas will cease and mortals will no longer exist, only something called the New Man. Everyone who lived before that Singularity will be lost, it seems to me. It reminds me of Clarke's "Childhood's End".

Maybe it's a differant Dagon. It's most likely a differant Akatosh. Not referencing the Marukhati stuff, consider Umaril. His daddy was the "world serpent of a previous kalpa". At least that's how it was put to me. Now, that implies that he is the son of the time god. I doubt very seriously that good ol' Aka had anything to do with that golden wuss. *shrugs*

Dammit, Wierd! You always put up threads like this that make my head hurt early in the morning when I first get to work and fire up my PC. Dude! Seriously! (well, not seriously, but dammit man!)

"... he listed his bloodline in the Ayleidoon and spoke of his father, a god of the [previous kalpa's] World-River..."

As it was a previous kalpa, does the World-River have a counterpart in Nirn's current kalpa?