Agree about the weird thing even I dont understand the quote.

Now I am happy they are giving time to the crafting and i am looking forward to crafting, I know it has sounded like I am anti crafting and I am not. one reason I left FFXIV ARR is because they had a whole section of characters basically neutered and made to mean nothing. The gear was earned through token grinding which further alienated the crafting professions.

[censored] I think the only way to make crafting on par and valuable in the endgame and therefore useful and wanted is to just give them endgame gear as craftable.

But seriously that doesn't sit well with me and I'm not 100% sure why, but I am at least being honest with what i am thinking and feeling and willing to share that even if my argument for the best endgame gear being only available through grouped content.

RUZE explain to me why this doesn't sit well I am asking with genuine desire to know?

I dont' see waiting for 6 hours or even 12 hours the same as grouping together to defeat content on the same level of difficulty. Hell you could log out for those 6 hours while you wait.

But if gear isn't on the same level as endgame content then they ultimately wont be as needed. BUT does that make them useless? I say no they are still needed but only in so much as to upgrade the best gear.

How does one make crafting on the same level as grouping without neutering either side?

Genuine questions here and I am in a contemplative mood so I am wanting discussion.

I dont' see crafting even with the time limits difficult, time consuming yes, but not the same as 6 hours of trying to down a raid boss.

Aeno

doesn't anyone read any more... it was from "ultimate hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy" and I thought it was thought provoking/mocking

Honestly, I think it's just conditioning. Many modern gamers have been trained that end-game raids equal best-in-slot gear. Simple, straightforward.

So the basic idea of getting best-in-slot gear from somewhere else (like PvP, solo dungeons, crafting, or some crappy cash shop) irks you. It goes against your conditioning.

And if you've played an MMO since 1999, you've probably felt the effects of that conditioning.

My perspective really began to shift with EvE Online. Sure, ships are cool and powerful, and you can have nice turrets and equipment, but in the end every ship is expendable and can be beaten by 100 day-old players in training gear.

FPS's do this, too. You don't win in Call of Duty because you have the better rifle. Anybody can unlock that rifle in a week if they just play. No, you win because you've got more skill.

But the idea of taking the focus off of gear is really foreign in today's mainstream MMO market. It's as confusing to most MMO players as having only five powers, or not being able to simply hit tab to cycle target, or using the mouse to look around instead of the keyboard.

well me and ruze both are not drunk enough to get that, and im cracking another beer as i type this ;p

I don't think a unique item should ever be the best. Otherwise why didn't they mass produce it? But, I come at it from a Elder Scrolls perspective. It's all about gear doing amazing things and skills being the icing on the cake. I've never played an MMORPG before. So there could be factors I simply don't see.

Yeah. I was really hoping that they'd keep daedric artifacts out of the game, but in the end you'll see all of us running around swinging Volundrung before the months up.

Admiral Nelson rum from the bottle. I'm doing a lot of blinking.

but the thing is this still 6 hours of waiting for a craft timer is not the same as 6 hours of trying to defeat a boss and failing. Trying again the next night and failing etc until you finally get it. Now the one victory as a group doesn't mean the next one is smooth and free of issues, you have played how many times does it take for a boss to be downed with certainty? I mean it takes weeks sometimes and only with the same exact group of people usually is it done sooner, but usually people go in and out of group.

Just like you like pvp more and pve stresses you out and bores you, I feel pvp is stressful and boring at times. I just never enjoyed it as much. I would even go so far as to say that yes pvp is harder so maybe the best gear should be pvp earned. but then I would have to say there should be a seperation in pvp vs pve gear to keep those who want to focus on one able to do so.

Maybe it is my western thinking but I like to have shinies that show for my effort. I'll be honest again I didn't always get all the end game loot and some of my characters looked pretty damn [censored] but I didn't ask for the same [censored] the other person got after all the effort they put into it.

Again I think I would be fine if mats for the best gear required groups to get due to them being in dungeons.

yes it no doubt is a lot of conditioning but i still feel more effort should equal better. The time frame required for waiting before you can try to learn the next step int he crafting process really isn't effort it is a waiting game after clicking the "X"

but if you have to earn some of the mats trhough group effort then I am fine.

I guess you can see it all boils down with me grouping shouldn't be made second fiddle to the solo in an mmo

groups should have access tot he best gear because it requires more out of the individual and the group.

I guess my mind won't change on that unless something really shifts, and who knows this mmo may be the thing to do that

Aeno

The thing is, what is more effort to one person may not be more effort to another. many times in MMOs I've felt I put in much more effort sooing than in raids or groups.

Hmm. Given that it was originally the hammer of a dwemer clan... http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Volendrung

...it's entirely possible that it wasn't the only one made. Malacath just claimed the brand name.

(Now we know why Boethiah REALLY ate Trinimac and turned him into Malacath. The guy was trying to bring copyright/trademark law into Tamriel and that intruded on Beothiah's sphere...)

god I love post modernism, everything is subjective, nothing is real, nothing is true, therefore nothing matters. bit extreme but again sitting in town waiting for a 6 hour timer to run out is not on the same level of difficulty or effort as trying to coordinate a group for a boss with massive health, hard hits, enrage timers. Not saying I want all those in here I don't I am done and have been done for 5 years. But there should be group bosses in AZs that require group effort and you should be rewarded handsomely for it.

please lets not try to make everything absolutely subjective otherwise I find no reason to even discuss. If me doing free throws is on the same level of effort as a basketball team working together then again I guess me and you will just never see eye to eye on the meaning of effort.

Aeno

Well, that's just a different type of conditioning.

More effort =/= better rewards

In almost every society out there, the most work is done by the lowest class of citizenry. We all, logically, feel it should be the other way around. He who works hardest should get paid the most. But it's usually thinkers who are paid the most, and the point-guys who get paid the least.

In most MMO's I've seen, the players who are rewarded the most are the minds who game the auction house. Most reward for least work. In TESO, they at least took out the auction house. So even if crafters can craft everything, their potential for gain is minimized. And if you bring gear to the same level, then it's those who are accomplishing tasks that receive the only rewards (titles, achievements, etc).

I'm not saying your wrong. I am saying that no playstyle should be second fiddle to it's counterpart. Solo players who go out and do solo dungeons that are appropriately scaled, should receive the same practical reward as those that group. There should be epic solo content, just like there should be epic group content (raids/world bosses).

As far as groups being more work: it should be a different type of fun. Some people like the social dynamics, and thus, would enjoy group content more (guys like myself, I might add). If grouping is more work, something is off in the way the mechanic is designed. Maybe your being forced to group when you don't want to. Maybe you are grouping with people you don't know because there isn't enough room to socialize. Or maybe it's because the content is boring. But it's not the gamers fault, it's the developers. Neither the solo player or the group player should ever feel pressured into playing some other style, in my opinion.

pssssshhhh the timer works offline

That was another point I heard that I will hold my opinion on. It's possible, I guess, that at this point in time there weren't just one daedric artifact. Still annoying, though.

On the other hand, how cool would it be if they incorporated items crafted by noteworthy players in future installments of the mainstream Elder Scrolls saga (i.e. ES VI) as artifacts? That would be a nice touch.

The Pimp Ring of Ruze

And with that epic thought, I'm going to bed. Good convo, gents.

To fix crafting @ endgame just have bosses drop materials needed to craft a certain item, that item should be above average from other more common crafts items.

Therefore group content + crafting content = viable. They did this ff11 for a while, before they decided to run the game into the ground.


This game is a single player pve game with pvp. There's really no need to group up at all, besides dungeon runs which aren't overly necessary more than once. The fastest way to level is the quest grind, the fastest way to quest grind is solo.

Multiplayer pve is an sheer afterthought and downright annoying.

we are arguing monetary rewards, and yes you can read above i said that crafters get the most money. I am talking about gear, the best gear should go to those who put in the effort to down the group content. not the crafter who has waiting 48 hours for the timer to ding. You WILL have the most money as most crafters do in every mmo but the gear goes to the ones completing the content, the hardest of which requires grouping.

Aeno

well honestly I am not sure but offline, online, doesnt matter. AFK with the computer on or off still not the same effort.

Aeno

If you mean that almost all quests can be done solo then I think it is common across all MMO. Logic tells me that game that would decide to force players to group for progress would receive tons of negative feedback.

no you have to have both

What game has it? In my opinion there are your strange wishes that do not exist in other games and simply becuase they do not work.

Correction. all new mmos are solo quest basedand they also have a penchant for failing and receiving tons of negative feedback.

I for one am not much of a crafter but i dont mind seeing them being able to make some of the best items. Throughout history there have been many master weaponsmiths or armorsmiths who where known by name by everyone for there supieror skill in there arts. Some so good they were thought to be magical. Even the gear drops from group content had to be crafted by someone at sometime. Usually we never know by who or when so why not me? Or you? Or steve from alaska? Why only an npc we never meet? If someone spends hundreds of hours learning everything about there respective skill to be able to creat a top teir weapon why should it be inferior to a found one? They should be able to be known for there crafting thoughtout the realm the same as a person who spends hundreds of hours perfecting raiding would be. Or the same as someone who spends hundreds of hours in pvp making a name for themselves there. I think itd add alot to a game if someone was in a raid or pvp and got asked "that sword is amazing! Whered u get it??" To reply "its a weapon by steve from alaska. His weapons cant be beat!"

And non quest based and group based ones would recieve just as much negative feedback and fail as well. Just look at the Asian, grinders, they fail hard over here, because they are just basically mob grind and little else to do.

But then those games that force players to play in teams (force - so you can not play solo) should get great success. Name those please.

If at first you don't suceeed try try and try again ....

or was it

Insainity is failing by doing the same thing over and over again....

which as I stated I am willing to work with but they must get the mats from group content to create the best gear

If I had to kill that fire breathing dragon for the scales to create such amazing armor, then that makes sense. Or I pay out the ass to get that scale from the one who killed the dragon

aeno