From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

You missed the point I was making. You say you should get better gear in a group dungeon than a solo player gets doing solo stuff. That's like saying because you work along side 5 coworkers, you should get more money per hour than the night shift guy who is the only one working during his shift.

About your crafting example you keep going back to. Let's put this in perspective. A player can go out and play for a few days, gather some resources and craft end game items. You don't think this is right because it might take you weeks to get that gear from drops in group dungeons. But, the thing you're not taking into consideration is that the crafter can't use his end game items. They're still level 5 because (as you keep saying) they rarely leave the town.

I feel like you're making too much of a fuss over a non-issue. Am I missing something here?

It's an MMO you wouldn't enjoy. I understand that completely. Honestly, TESO is the first game where I've really ENJOYED crafting. The end result was always a waste in other games, mainly because the mechanics were time consuming and grind heavy, and nothing you crafted could ever really matter to anyone since loot was so much superior.

I take that back. Now that I think on it, I crafted (proxy path coder) in Matrix Online alot. You could break down any item and rebuild it in a new style/color, giving you options to craft gear in a limited way that made it useful and fun. Plus, it was a simple mechanic and didn't require carpal tunnel like, say, Everquest.

As far as REQUIRING or grouped content being the focus? There we probably disagree the strongest. I'll tell you how I define it:

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online. Brings a lot of players together.

RPG = Roleplaying Game. Sets a stage for players to make their own story.

MMORPG = Brings a lot of players together and lets them make their own story on a single stage (server and lore background).

Note there is no focus saying that grouped content is a must. I see raids the same way you see crafting, I think. Mindless, repetitive, and cumbersome. Most are boring past the first run. In fact, that type of content is SO bad, MMOG's and MMORAIDS have had to change the mechanics of the game to FORCE players to run the content. Not just force them to run it, but then they set the loot values so low in the RNG in order to force them to run it as many times as possible.

Because otherwise, those same RAIDS are such miserable experiences that almost nobody would run them more than once or twice.

Doesn't that seem like poor thinking? I mean, I will literally build over a dozen characters in the character generator because it's fun. I will craft a suit of armor and weapons because I want to see how they look and enjoy it (in very few games, Elder Scrolls being one of them). I'll spend hours partying and chatting because I love it. I'll PvP for hours and hours on in. They don't have to reward me to get me to do these things.

But PvE dungeons and raids? No, it's either rewards, or they aren't worth it.

That's a great mindset, no?

I also come from a generation where you set that single-player game on the hardest difficulty for the challenge. There wasn't any reward for it, just accomplishment.

And then you'd meet somebody that could beat the game on the hardest setting, AND had more points/kills than you. Damn.

I have to agree with everything Ruze has said in this thread.

“Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. Working men of all countries, unite!”

Im making a fuss for a non issue? I guess if it wasn't a non issues others would have such an issue with such a drastic change to group exp/grinding, phasing wouldn't be an issue. I know grouping in an mmo sounds silly these days...crazy grouping lol why group such a ridiculous notion.

Coordinating a group is more difficult than coordinating yourself by yourself for yourself for the same gear because yourself didn't want to group.

Ive played many mmos and not all of them did I complete end game content and get to max, sometimes I just chilled and played. But I didn't say, "You know that is some nice gear you got there but I don't think it is fair that you can only have that gear. I want that gear too, but you know I don't think it is fair that I have to kill a boss and coordinate myself with 25 other people. I think I am going to write a complaint because this just isn't fair." Same would be for pvp, I don't expect the same gear unless I put in the time

I know it is silly to think that people should group in a social game such a crazy thougt.

Aeno

I live in a society where the richest 10% pay over 90% of the taxes for the entire country, including a rampant unemployment and welfare machine that encourages lazy people to stay at home instead of getting jobs, and yet the poorest 90% (of which I am definitely one) has the gumption to say it's not fair.

As far as the reference to communism in my posts ... um, lolwut?

I have an honest set of questions.

What if that crazy-difficult end-game content gave achievements. Titles. Vanity pets. Special clothing like a unique cloak. Stats on a leaderboard. A unique horse mount. A special effect you could attach to your character. Access to unique emotes. Access to special (but balanced) abilities and passives.

Would it still be worth it? Or does it HAVE to be gear which affects the strength and capability of your character?

It doesn't matter that you live in the united states. It matters that you want to be rewarded for not taking the risk or putting in the effort like the other players.

I'm a PvPer. In game after game, I've been told that PvPers don't need the same gear as PvErs. That we don't deserve the same rewards. That all we should get are leaderboards and titles, because otherwise, it's not fair to PvErs who don't want to PvP.

In the end, PvP is a far more difficult game mechanic, and yes it's consistently seen as 'sub-par' to RAIDS. So you aren't really understanding the point I'm trying to make.

If I was in your shoes, I would be arguing that PvP needs the best rewards because it is the hardest. But instead, I am arguing to be fair to all playstyles. If you support the different style of content equally, with no favoritism, you let players CHOOSE how they play.

To try to assume that giving equal treatment in a video game to players of different playstyles makes me a communist? That's stretching pretty damn hard to throw mud at me.

Again, I ask the question: if large group PvE content didn't stink so bad, why do they have to bait it like a trap to force us to do it?

reward those who put the time and effort into the game be it PVP or PVE. But lets get away from this idea that everyone deserves the best gear.

Agree

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online. Brings a lot of players together.

RPG = Roleplaying Game. Sets a stage for players to make their own story.

But those who decide to group together in their role playing to complete content that would otherwise not be possible deserve the better gear to show for it.

Again I just don't see how a game where I am in town hitting the "X" button to craft = to an mmo. I guess and mmo is just chilling in town for most hitting the "X" button with the right hand to craft gear and with the left hand typing social questions such as "How was your day today?"

Mindless repetitive work with a single person in crafting for example isn't the same as a group team effort. Yes once you get the team to actually coordinate a boss down, which seriously come on takes way more than one time, it can become boring. You make it sound like bosses or dungeons are a one shot, when most the time it is not and the reason it is not is because the group dynamic makes things more difficult. I have to time my steps in accordance with player 2 and 3 and 4 and..... Then there is that sense of accomplishment when we as a group finally do defeat the content. But once it is done and completed on more than one occasion the satisfaction comes from having as a group completed such difficult content. I can see if a group has the boss down to one shot everytime it can get boring, but be serious this isn't easy as you make it sound, and it generally doesn't come quick.

I agree with you on pvp, it is the ultimate in terms of thrill. I just am not that good at it I'll be honest. But never did I once say that I should have the same gear as those who earned the top spots. I do play pvp but I tend to loose my temper lol, losing to an AI isn't as irritating to me for some reason.

I am not saying people should be forced to raid, but why should the gear be even? You may not like to raid just like I dont care for pvp but I won't be asking for the same gear you have earned and put the time and stress in for this doesn't make sense. I don't sit down in real life saying I should have the same pay as someone whose job required more schooling, time and effort.

Aeno

Why? If you answer is because it's group, that doesn't make sense as someone can work just as hard solo as they can in a group, they can play just as much and for just as long. That solo player may also be a better player than you too. Should the group people get something unique? Yes, it should be the best gear though. Again what happened to doing something hard and with a group was because it was hard and fun, not because I got a pretty prize at the end that made me better than everyone else.

It's trying to reach a larger audience by giving you choices of playing alone or with others. Choices are always good, you have to define it for yourself.

I play and enjoy both pve and pvp. Certain aspects of PVP can be more challenging and dynamic than PVE. However, mindlessly following a zerg of players threwing an ae out here and there collectly alliance points isn't as difficult as you make it seem. As well as static PVE encounters that never change. Again, reward those that put in more Time and effort.

Now we get to my personal focus: reward them, yes! Make it special.

Don't make it about gear. Take the gear out of the equation. Make obtaining max gear fairly easy. I think this is smart for a number of reasons, mainly because power-creep sets in where each expansion, new dungeons and better gear has to be released in order to lure players to do those dungeons, making the entry-level event for newer players harder and harder to achieve as the game ages.

Plus, gear factors majorly in PvP, and if you take out it's focus, players have a more equal and fair footing to compare skill.

Gear is also a driving force in PvE end-game elitism (gear score, anyone), and is a remarkably poor indicator of skill even in PvE settings. While I usually ride the gear wave myself, I've more than once had to vouche for players ability when they did NOT. And it adds more drama than good, I think.

Some people believe people should be unique and different.

Others (and I'm not implying fellow posters in this piece, just in general) believe that different is innately bad and that rules and mechanics should be put in place to force people to all try and be the same.

Some people feel that different threatens their herd, or simply cannot accept that others don't enjoy what they do.

First of all I meant the crafting argument was a non issue in my eyes. Crafting and collecting isn't going to be better than group content just on the basis that dungeons give you loot and xp. Killing a couple wolves and making a pair of gloves isn't going to sky rocket a player to end-game.

Second, I don't think you should be coming at this like I hate grouping up. I don't, but I also don't want to see it become the focus of the game.

Grouping up, in itself is a huge gain, it doesn't need incentives. To have people helping you along through whatever you collectively decide is fun to do. When you start introducing game mechanics that force players into groups as a means to an end(getting gear), you end up corrupting the social aspects of these groups.

When I see a group in-game. Like real life, it should be a group of friends. Perhaps on rare occasions it will be groups of random people, come together for a common goal. But, usually when you see people together, they're friends. I'm glad that ESO is kind of setup like this. When I play this game, I shouldn't say to myself "welp, mmorpg time, let's find a group cause I want that gear". Rather I should be making actual friends(in-game if possible) and either forming groups or joining up with their groups. Or, if I'm feeling anti-social I can run off and hunt deer and wolves, and hide in the shadows.

A common cause: reward work.

Work being the end result of time, and effort. Work being one of the defining characteristics of MMO's, and also one of the reasons I love them. Work can take the form of grinding, or simply time-in-game, but in the end it can make an MMO feel very monotonous.

But it's still work.

That said, how do you define who has put in more time and effort? If a solo player grinds 3000 mobs and takes six hours to clear a dungeon for the first time, doesn't his work count above the hour and a half the well-oiled raid guild just spent clearing a dungeon they know like the back of their hand? How do we figure that?

I want to play however I want, I deserve the best gear, Just because you want to play harder stuff doesn't mean you should be rewarded for that... right?

I just play around in Ebonheart Pact and I don't care. AND HO here's a Khajiit and a Wood elf showing up while I'm doing a quest inside a little cave and I find it funny to complete it with em, then I go back to my journey.

I generally only group with friends. I hate PUGs. When I play Halo or Battlefield, I only play when friends are online. Otherwise I will play something else. I hate being forced to team with people I have don't know. And I damn sure don't consider it a team unless everyone is communicating.

Because of these requirements, I generally join strong guilds with preset plans on group content. Sometimes I lead the content, most times I support. Communication in third party programs. Well organized and well funded.

I do find the teamwork to be enjoyable. But I log in to play with friends (as I generally buy my gear whenever I get the chance, as I hate RNG drop mechanics). If the dungeon is challenging, I love that. Like playing every single Halo on legendary solo (which I've done). I love talking about soloing IG-88 with a Katarn-armor Commando in Star Wars Galaxies, or two-manning Spellplague with my 'useless' Great Weapon Fighter in Neverwinter Online despite being told it's impossible.

Course, I only ran spellplague maybe six times, total. it wasn't THAT much fun.

PVE seems designed around singleplayer or at least the ability to do quests by yourself but PVP seems to look impossible to do by yourself since by definition the goal is to take over farms, castles and what not and you obviously need lots of people to do that.

Regarding rewards it should entirely be based on the difficulty of the boss and not if its a single individual or a group. In fact I am hoping that there are some enemies that are impossible or at the very least next to impossible to solo because then it makes me feel like less of a badass and increases the tension in the gameworld. I do not like feeling that I can cheese roll every enemy in the game and I would like to be reminded that I am far from the most powerful of beings on Nirn. I want my game to be difficult, nail biting and keep my paranoid about my surroundings. The second that feeling goes away and I find myself thinking about lisbians while I am lackidaisically hitting my hotkeys to fight troll number 2,342 I pretty much lose interest in the game. This is why I have a hard time with MMOs in general because at some point grinding will get boring no matter how good the combat is.

I would say that the amount of time and effort of the raid would be the indiv. sum of the time and effort of the 12-24 people raiding. Thus being 18-36hrs of play time. So your indiv. needs to work harder or get efficient at working.