What's harder to you isn't harder for everyone.

I belong to a large multi-game guild that has an extreme amount of organization, we're very close knit, and we literally churn through end-game content between games because we like seeing what we can knock out.

And yet ... to ask the question again:

Is the only reward for your hard work gear? Is being a more powerful character after beating the hardest content (a stupid concept to me) the only reward you find acceptable for hard work?

So as long as the single player works for 18-36 hours, he should get the total of all rewards that a 12-24 person raid group would get. Right?

How much is the individual investment in that group, and individual reward, worth per that same timeframe?

No, more like if I'm running around alone and find a master chest, I shouldn't find crappier gear than people in a group who find the same level chest.

It's not about the task being hard or easy, it's about access to the best gear. If there was no possible way for a solo player to get the same gear as group players, I would be disappointed.

Indiv Investment would be 1.5hrs and indiv. reward worth 1.5hrs..... meaning a total group reward of 18-36hrs that would be split btw the group. Not this everyone gets loot bs...

Let me get this straight: You feel that looting two or three pieces of purple gear and dividing that gear amongst 12-24 players after a combined total of 18-36 hours of work, is ample reward?

That only certain, lucky players deserve anything at all?

Look at it from another absurd angle: do you feel that players should work their tail off to do the hardest content in the game ... to be rewarded with gear that makes them more powerful? Shouldn't you prepare and get your gear in order BEFORE the challenge?

What basketball team out there waits until after they've won the championships to get new uniforms and better shoes?

why are you entitled to the same gear a group of 4 people worked for? Did you work 4x as hard for that chest? Are you 4x better? does it not matter that it took up four peoples time?

Yes exactly....sure if you want to prepare you can... maybe your team doesn't need prep or maybe it does.

What basketball team out there waits until after they've won the championships to get new uniforms and better shoes? The team that has no money and gets a nice income from a championship win. The team that earned it.

You seem to have a very specific idea of what you believe deserves reward. I'm not certain the game agrees.

The more people that love this game, the better chance it has of surviving so bring on the multiple paths to awesome.

You didn't work 4x harder, either.

A company hires four employees to do the job faster and easier. Teamwork is a lubricant to progress, not an abrasive. If it was HARDER for four people to do the work, a company would not bring in four people, they'd go with fewer.

Now, this is if the content is the same. I.E. the boss the single player fights is the same the four players fight. If that's the case, and it's a challenge for four players, then I DAMN sure feel the single player should get four times the loot.

But if the boss and challenge is properly scaled, so that it's the same amount of effort for the team as it is for the individual? No, then I think loot and reward should be equal.

When compared to SWTOR, concur.

The phasing of grouped instances in the ESO beta left much to be desired. I'd often lose track of what my wife was doing, and vice versa - something that never happened to us in SWTOR. Nor did I care for being involuntarily single-player instanced from time to time.

It's exactly because we're equal that I deserve the best gear as a solo player. In order to be competitive, you need the best gear, if you make the best gear only accessible to groups, you force players into groups.

It's just like with the add-ons giving advantages. People felt they HAD to use them in order to compete. Except in this case the advantage is obvious.

Did I work 4x as hard for that chest? In some cases yes, because I had to get there alone.

Let me ask you this. Why do you think you deserve an advantage over a solo player that has played 4x more than you have? If he didn't have access to the best gear, it wouldn't matter how much he played, you would still have a one up on him.

I knew the underdog reference would be played. I think my point still stands, though. You get the best gear you can BEFORE you face the toughest challenges out there.

Another anology: Perseus gathers all of his fantastic artifacts and weapons before the final fight. Those aren't his reward for finishing. They are his tools to complete the impossible.

Changed the argument a bit there. Yes if you can do the job of four people you are entitled to the same loot. No you do not get the same loot as four people just for existing.

Now we are confused here. Does playing 4x as much include sitting afk in town? Your playing 4x as much to farm the cash to buy the gear from the group that farmed the dungeon?

Now here we get to a crux: it's not just for existing.

It's for completing the same level of challenges. Not as four people, but a challenge that is just as difficult for one player as that challenge is for four people working together.

If my boss has 25,000 health and your group boss has 100,000, and we both have to do the same amount of work individually in our roles (25,000 in damage, working on a very basic equation with the assumption that this is damage dealt only, with no support roles), then why does the group deserve better (or worse, if RNG is against them) rewards?

Woah! Sitting in town? Is this anti-crafter again? Or are you speaking against trading gear?

Sorry friend called and started chatting up a storm.

Started reading some replies and became nauseated again.

I totally agree, I think everyone should get the same gear. I honestly feel I should just sit in town and get the best gear I personally think that is fair, is it not? I mean i did purchase the game so that means I should get the gear right? I think the best gear should go to me for staying in town. I think that grouping content is rather easy and simple and therefore loot shouldn't really be given in the first place I mean hmmm why should loot be given when coordination is really not required. I think loot is over rated to be honest I think the game should be character creation..

When do I get my shinies I think I deserve them because well...I did by the game so do they show up in my mail box or do I have to do something for them? I don't think I should have to really do anything that wouldn't be fair to me, because I don't want to do anything but I still want the gear though...

Hopefully they'll come in the mail tomorrow. I'll sit my ass in front of the mail box waiting, I think that is a fair amount of effort, I mean I did have to walk over to the mail box, jeez how much effort or work are they expecting?

Aeno

Again, let's see this line of logic:

Two of us are arguing that if a single-player works just as hard as an individual in a group, he should get the same reward.

Instead of addressing that, two others are now stating that the single player is just sitting in town? Where does this come from?

Should I pay you $100 for painting 1/4 of a fence? or $25?...... or do I pay four different people $25 each to paint the full fence.... You are only painting 1/4 of the fence sir and do not get the full pay.

I'm staring at the screen in bewilderment.

I'm stating that if a person needed a 25' fence painted, and one person did it, he'd give him, say, $25.

That same person has a separate fence thats 100' long. Why would he pay four people $200 to paint it? Isn't it still only worth (assuming its the same height and everything) $1/foot?

But in a group, you are still only painting 1/4th of the fence. While the group gets a 100 bucks it averages out to only 25$ per person, so the single person is still getting as much as the person in the group.

That's the issue I have with your suggestion. You want to give the best gear only to groups, so it doesn't matter how hard the solo player works. Or how much crafting someone does. They're never going to get that gear.

Apparently, neither of them have ever crafted before. They must think those pelts & ore materialize while you're idling in town.

Yes you only get $1 per a foot. Those four people are painting a larger 100' fence. They decided to pool their money and go to the bar afterwards and get 10 pitchers of beer. You only painted 25' and only get $25... Sorry you can only afford 2 pitchers. But hey if you paint 75' more you can be just like the group of four.

The argument has been for grouping vs solo play and the gear associated with those two aspects of play. Now most group content are not able to be solo'ed unless one greatly out levels the content. But if group content is soloable then there is a problem with what they feel is group.

content that is considered group but soloable to me is mislabled. Content that is for solo should be solo, group should clearly be only able to be completed by a group. Now if I am 15, 20 whatever amount of levels above and complete said content then what was the point anyways?

I guess discussion to this point is pointless I really need to start learning Ruze's mentality because I would like more money for less work. I say this because the point was made that 4 people working together should be easier because they grease the wheels, but the thing is more work is expected to be completed than from a single person. I would say if a single person completes the same job as the four people there is something wrong with the people or the job. "Group" content that can be soloed I say has a problem with the content and really can't be considered group.

A person sitting in town crafting is not on the same level of difficulty as a group of people coordinating their actions to down difficult content. If content is actually soloable then the devs need to work on their definition of group.

Aeno

Crafting is a separate argument, I feel. I'm not petitioning for crafters to be born with the schematic for all the best gear. I think a crafter should work for it. I remember building my mandalorian set of armor in Star Wars Galaxies. Not only did you have to grind the pieces before hand and have great gear to complete the dungeon, but the crafting station for the armor was actually IN the dungeon itself, and was an epic quest to get to all of its own.

There are a dozen ways to make sure that crafters have a challenge ahead of them. Since crafting is an auxillary in this game, it will require the gathering of materials, the gathering of special drops, the hard-to-reach crafting station (for the special set bonus), AND possibly a limited run schematic from some mob within the dungeon itself (but preferrably before the end boss).

You can make it a definite challenge to complete. But it should be possible for them to craft it.