Essential NPC's Thread [2]

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:48 pm

No need for Caesar to move outside of camp neither the BOS elder.

However this would eliminate options in designing the game, by having quest npc as temporary followers. Not all need to be protected, Oblivion had multiple who was not but her was to keep them safe secondary objectives.

This again ignoring the fact that we probably will get far larger cells now good chance for open cities also more open housing.

No protection of important NPC will make open cities an huge bug source. So you can select one of two :)

User avatar
alyssa ALYSSA
 
Posts: 3382
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:36 pm

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:51 pm

NO NO NO NO NO.
User avatar
Danny Blight
 
Posts: 3400
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:30 am

Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:33 am

I'm not following. Would you clarify a bit what you mean?

User avatar
Ricky Meehan
 
Posts: 3364
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:42 pm

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:45 pm

I'd much prefer non essential npcs but given that games have to cater to a lot of idiots these days I'd imagine there will be quite a few in the game. Maybe it's something they should include in hardcoe mode.
User avatar
stevie trent
 
Posts: 3460
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:33 pm

Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:19 am

This! :)

User avatar
kirsty williams
 
Posts: 3509
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 5:56 am

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:47 pm

Why? Other NPC's should also be able to kill other NPC's. I get very annoyed when other NPC's can't kill other NPC's.

User avatar
Jynx Anthropic
 
Posts: 3352
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:36 pm

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:53 pm

I agree, but this was about those essential NPCs. Instead of having them unkillable by everyone including the player, the player should be able to kill them if so desired. That gives room for roleplaying while at the same time protecting quests for those who want to pursue them and those caravans that you wanna sell things to, if you want to sell stuff to them that is :smile:

User avatar
Sophie Miller
 
Posts: 3300
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:35 am

Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:26 am

Designers need to stop being lazy and just rethink what they are doing instead of lets make X immortal. Okay you killed X, the quest is dead and its written so it doesn't break the game. Or give X plenty of armed protection. If you are foolish enough to attack X, then his guards will kill you.

User avatar
Victoria Vasileva
 
Posts: 3340
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:42 pm

Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:23 am

There is also the protected status that AwesomPossum seems to forget...

User avatar
Emerald Dreams
 
Posts: 3376
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:52 pm

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:48 pm

It wouldn't make sense for Ceaser to go elsewhere in the context of the game. This is his camp, and it is where he's safe. You sound like you'd prefer him to occasionally be found strolling around the wasteland so there's a chance some Cazadors could off him.

And we don't have any idea if the NCR has the vertibirds to spare for such a run. We see Bearforce 1, a presidential transport vessel with no evidence of weapons and... some broken ones on the Long 15. We don't even know if they were functional. Not to mention the Legion has anti-vehicle weapons like the AMR. They very well could bring down a vertibird if it were sent there.

Most NPCs do go to bed and the like, and even take some time to eat (admittedly not in a cafeteria or anything fancy). Not all do, of course, but most do. Besides traders, they don't wander the wastes or anything, but many will move around the areas they live in. It's unfair to compare this to Morrowind, in which virtually nobody moved an inch but the guards, when in NV we clearly see most NPCs walking around.
User avatar
Breanna Van Dijk
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:18 pm

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:12 pm

Advertising should be what is delivered.

Except they ignored that very IPs lore and shoehorned material into their game. Furthermore they continued to gut mechanics and present them in an atrocious (my opinion) manner. I'm not saying it needs to be turn-based or isometric (I prefer FPP), but it needs to still be a recognizable RPG in a recognizable universe.

And yet you have multiple members wanting the game to be more "realistic" even if it means sacrificing multiple RPG elements to mimic an FPS shooter, as well as multiple members pushing for the removal of essential status because they feel it's detrimental to the experience (myself included) when there is a simple fix.

And here we have you ignoring the presented answer in the paragraph you quoted. I won't bother to explain why this paragraph wasn't necessary because the answer is in what you quoted.

Again, people constantly reload saves when they do not like the outcome of their dialogue or skill allotment or what have you. This is no different. (Horrible discussion technique)-> By this same logic many of the choices in the games should be protected from player error so they don't have to reload a save.

____________________________________________________________________

*Not directly solely at you Motsie* This quoting stuff and not bothering to read or respond to it shouldn't even be happening. If you don't bother to read what you're responding to, then why bother responding? This is like the fourth time in one day (not by you).

User avatar
(G-yen)
 
Posts: 3385
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:10 pm

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:22 pm

Bethesda should handle Essential NPCs like they did in Morrowind!

All Essential NPCs are killable, but if you do kill a NPC whose survival was required for a quest to be finishable, a message should pop up telling you that an important character has been killed, and the (main)quest can't be finished. So you reload (or you don't, and play along just for fun). But, just KNOWING that you CAN kill ANYBODY, at anytime, is satisfying enough. You never kill Essential NPCs anyway. But, again, just knowing that you COULD do so anytime, is good enough. It was good enough in Morrowind and would be good enough in Fallout 4.

Oh, and most (if not all) Essential NPCs in Morrowind had way more health than other NPCs, so monsters (and yourself) couldn't kill them too easily.

This is the best solution Bethesda ever had for Essential NPCs. Don't really know why they didn't stick to it.

User avatar
Lavender Brown
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:37 am

Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:14 am

I think the best way would be giving the players three options in the settings menu:
1)Essential NPCs (Immortal to anything)
2)Semi essential NPCs (see my previous comment): killable by the player, immortal to enemies and falling unless they're an escort( escorts are still immortal to falling).
3)No essential NPCs: anything can be killed by anything. Unique NPCs can fall to death when you're not looking.

And these two:
1) Essential Followers
2) No essential followers

I think this wouldn't take a lot of time for the developers, and satisfy pretty much everyone.
User avatar
Monika Krzyzak
 
Posts: 3471
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:29 pm

Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:02 am

I won't disagree.

What Fallout is advertised as is an action role-playing game set within an open world. The subjectivity of what makes a role-playing game a role-playing game is a circular discussion, as it is based in one's own opinion of what fulfills that experience for them. You cannot argue and tell me that Fallout 3 shirks some of the core elements of a role-playing game.

Can you list examples of lore that was ignored? Genuine question as I am not familiar with F1 or 2.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a realistic or believable experience in an RPG. The operative word in the passage you quoted was "dire," however. There are many people, myself included, who don't want to be locked out of a quest because the NPC died before they could reach it.

And yeah, the simple fix is protected NPCs.

I did not address them because they're solutions which produce more problems.

Placing the NPC into a faction that belongs to the enemy (correct me if I'm wrong) hurts situations where the npc has to help the player versus enemies within the faction they (don't - narratively) belong to. People tried this with Dragons in Skyrim to get them to tunnel vision only the player in outdoor areas. It removed a lot of the free-for-all fighting players experienced when fighting a dragon + wildlife + giants and mammoth herds.

The issue of NPCs running away is that the NPC doesn't have AI which can tell it where to run to, there's no withdrawal spot. In towns this would function mechanically well because the npc can just run back into their home. But in open-world areas it gets complicated. The NPC can run away from the danger at point A to point B, but point B has deathclaws or super mutants roaming the area.

The biggest factor is that the game is set in the Fallout universe where guns are a dime a dozen. Suggesting that these crucial NPC outrun bullets and explosives is just, well you get the point.

Wrong, it is different. Skill allotment attributes itself to a personal decision made by the character, whether they can live with that decision is up to them - otherwise they can just game the system and reload a save as you said. An NPC dying from a stray grenade explosion or in Skyrim's case from a Vampire attack isn't intuitive gameplay, it's not even a personal choice made by the player.

The realities of both FO3 and Skyrim are that the games don't function around the consequences of freak-occurrences.

User avatar
Averielle Garcia
 
Posts: 3491
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:41 pm

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:06 pm

Others would know better than I*. Here are but a few that I found issue with:

-Shoehorning of the Super Mutants and FEV to the Capital Wasteland after Fallout 1 states all FEV was relocated to Mariposa.

-Shoehorning of Enclave despite being nuked and almost entirely wiped out in Fallout 2. Then having them yet again in such huge numbers in Broken Steel :bonk:

-Ghouls in design and in both Feral and instant ghoulification (Obsidian was guilty of this in New Vegas as* well)

-Mothership Zeta (speaks for itself)

-One could argue the mechanics behind the vault gecks

-Post-war drugs being in pre-war containers and unopened vaults

So basically a lot of the main stuff in the game.. Others have engrossed themselves far more than I in the series and lore though, so other members could give better examples.

You and others might know better than I, but I know members that are somewhat experienced with the GECK don't find the difficulty in it.

I think it's a matter of devs making it work.

We might be arguing different points here: I see we both seem to want NPCs being killable by the player. The point we seem to disagree on is just the world being able to kill NPCs. I think they need to look into other methods aside from being immortal.

I can compromise this point, but I'm curious if you're fine with the player unintentionally and indirectly killing NPCs or locking content. That is, by assisting in one quest it causes harm to another quest giver. Weighing one settlement or faction against another for example. I would even like interacting with the world and influencing people like how Bethesda tried saying the economy could be impacted (it wasn't), but taking it a step further.

Locked content isn't the end of the world. We shouldn't be able to complete everything in one run. It should take different characters, different personalities and personal ideals to feasibly complete every quest or dialogue.

Edit: It's a good discussion so far though, I'm glad we've been able to narrow things down and discuss in a civil manner.

User avatar
Eileen Collinson
 
Posts: 3208
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:42 am

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:05 pm

I honestly dont get where people get this "huge numbers" from. There's like less then 500 Enclave total in the base game + Broken Steel.

User avatar
Miguel
 
Posts: 3364
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:32 am

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:33 pm

Those are an abstraction of their total numbers just like everything else in the game. It would be pretty weird if the Enclave and BoS were the only things that weren't scaled down in a hugely scaled down world.

Those are still fairly large numbers for regrouping across the entire country (when a vault capacity is 1000 members).

User avatar
Jamie Lee
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:15 am

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:07 pm

It might not be intuitive, but it's emergent and if the quests are handled correctly, that creates intuitivity by making the player adjust to the new situation. This is something that constantly escapes me, the seeming self contradiction where people want a living and breathing realistic world where NPC's do their business and go about their chores like real people, yet all that made lifeless, artificial and stale again by not having any of it matter with ridiculous "X is unconscious" by any kind of hazard.

User avatar
FITTAS
 
Posts: 3381
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:53 pm

Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:21 am

Just no essential NPC's or essential followers at all in Fallout 4.

User avatar
Shaylee Shaw
 
Posts: 3457
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:55 pm

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:36 pm


So, just because you don't want it, nobody is allowed to have it?? Is the game supposed to be made only for you? You don't have to use the other options, but others who want to have essential NPCs can have them. Just like you can choose to have no essentials.
User avatar
RObert loVes MOmmy
 
Posts: 3432
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:12 am

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:27 pm

Because essential NPC's and essential followers ruin RPG video games a whole lot. Especially quest NPC's. With essential NPC's there is no consequences. Quests can be designed to give you consequences for having the quest NPC's killed.

User avatar
Noraima Vega
 
Posts: 3467
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:28 am

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:51 pm

Options are nice, but there's more to it than just "dead or not". There's a lot of reactivity possibilities to consider with the death of a quest essential NPC (of course it wouldn't be essential anymore, if there were alternative routes). Not for all quests - sometimes it suffices that things just went badly for what ever reason; this is where the optability is called for and works - but quite a few might well offer further intrigue through radical change of circumstances and that's where it begs to question whether it is worth it to have a toggle that prevents some players of experiencing those things.

User avatar
Nitol Ahmed
 
Posts: 3321
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:35 am

Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:46 am

See, if this thread was about quests offering more paths and options, where NPCs that would otherwise be essential would be trivial in an overall narrative, I would be right up there with everyone else arguing for more diverse quests. I would give a lot for more quests like Birds of a Feather and Heartache by the Number. Cass was a beautiful example of how many alternatives there were for solving her dilemma. You could turn her over to the Van Graffs in Birds of a Feather, or you could tell them to [censored] off in the form of a .45 acp in Heartache by the Number.

It didn't bother me one bit that Birds of a Feather failed because the game was able to accommodate the situation where it failed, and this was largely due to a player's decision to participate in a quest that has cross-over with the former. I want more quests and more narratives that support these circumstances.

In the grand scheme of things we can all agree that it's a videogame not set within the harsh reality that is real life. The main ideal is finding a solution that is not only possible within the limitations of the game's narrative, but also in the technical aspect of the game.

It's possible to have a living, breathing world because it doesn't take much outside of scripting/packaging to make an NPC wander around the backyard of his home and toil the fields. This same NPC can also die because they don't serve an overall story or narrative. They're filler much like the numerous caravans of the Mojave. But, the NPC doesn't have to serve an overall narrative to be more important than the generic NPC that might replace him/her should they die. The various personalities that populate these worlds are important in that they provide life and believability beyond just the mundane tasks they do every single day. When they die, a bit of the life they once breathed into the world goes with them.

In a game like FNV, this isn't so much of an issue because the NPCs exist within their own insulated cell, and so it was entirely up to the player whether these NPCs lived or died. In fact, the game made numerous accommodations and options to support an NPC dying. No matter what though, any NPC that did die in FNV was always, in one way or another, the result of a personal decision made by the player. Contrast the that to Skyrim and you have NPCs that wander beyond home and into the great beyond. I don't want the very few NPCs that already exist, who provide life to the world, to perish as a result of a random occurrence that the player had no control over.

I don't feel it's fair to say it's self-contradictory to want a believable, realistic world environment that also doesn't harbor the same consequences of real life. It's fair in this situation to find a gray-area to an otherwise black and white issue. In a game world that doesn't facilitate or accommodate certain consequences, a sacrifice to realism and believability has to be made in order to keep a consistent and intuitive game experience.

Trust me, I dislike essential NPCs as much as the next person, but I can shelve my disdain for it because I understand why it exists. With that said, the essential system can be eliminated completely and replaced by a system like an improved 'protection' system. One that can identify when the player is actively trying to kill an NPC vs trying to protect an NPC.

User avatar
Courtney Foren
 
Posts: 3418
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:49 am

Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:33 am

Yes we can. My arguments are never for realism, but for gameplay. I.e. I don't ask for mortal NPC's because it is "realistic", but because it provides potential for more reactive gameplay. Something that an RPG's should strive for; especially the Bethesda kind of RPG that raves about its world and freedom.

Consistency and intuitivity is precisely what I am going for.

So do I, on both disliking and understanding, and that's where I want a change in design. That the reason for the system to exist goes away due to more creative design methods over both, quests and NPC's.

That's commendable, but it forgets that the player is not the only one who "might" want to kill the NPC -- having these NPC's only get knocked off limits the possibilities for quest design, narrative reactivity and emergent gameplay because no consideration is needed for how things might unfold after their death. I'd rather the system "protected" the NPC when the player simply wasn't around (within sight radius); and even then, have them rather avoid danger than rush on to it.

User avatar
Aman Bhattal
 
Posts: 3424
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:01 am

Post » Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:53 pm

That's precisely what I want. You want NPCs that can randomly die, even in your presence. We can agree to disagree on that.

What I will advocate are more quests that harbor more possibilities and cross-over where if an NPC dies another event occurs.

User avatar
Crystal Clarke
 
Posts: 3410
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:55 am

PreviousNext

Return to Fallout 4