I am aware of that program. Look up how many truely evil people were given new lives because of such a program. The government at the time needed information on USSR so they just smuggled in anyone who said they had important information on the Russians. Even some of the people who ended up becoming American super stars for their work on the space program were well aware of the horrible things going on during the war. They just lucked out that the World had Stalin to worry about then defeated Germans.

"I was only following orders" shouldn't be an excuse for atrocities.

But lets not go to deep into real world history anymore then what we have.

I am not saying they should given new lives but the less guilty should be place under guard for years or even life trying to recreate ,reverse engineer, or invent stuff. Basically prisoner labor but inside a lab not in a factory.

Savagehedgehog, you are blaming factions for poor storytelling on Bethesda's part. I have said repeatedly that no faction would set off a nuke in the middle of Boston, not even the Railroad. I also suggested that it would be more logical for the BOS to loot the Institute, publicly try and execute the leaders, but offer clemency to those who assist the BOS. I even specifically referenced Operation Paperclip. Unfortunately Bethesda likes big explosions even when they make little sense for the given faction.

Also a major plot point with the BOS is the Player directly defying an order of Elder Maxson and getting him to accept the Player's argument.

Well there were trials at the end of the War. But in the end there were far to many people to have trials and the USSR was threatening to take over the Western Europe so...

But in the World of Fallout the Brotherhood saw for themselves what was going on at Mariposa so they acted. That was before the Great War. Their government had sanctioned atrocities and they weren't going to "follow orders" and turn a blind eye to it.

Skip a head to the time of Fallout 4 and the Brotherhood can see the things the Institute is doing and they are the only ones who can stop them.

It isn't poor story telling. Nuclear bombs have been used before to take out threats. The Cathedral in Fallout, The Enclave Oil Rig in Fallout 2. Raven Rock in Fallout 3. The door to Vault Zero in Fallout Tactics.

A nuclear explosion is the only way to be sure the Institute is dead. The Brotherhood has technology that even they themselves would not study/loot and Synths are one of them. They are abominations to them. I believe Arthur himself even uses the word abominations.

If the argument is that the area was populated. That wouldn't stop the Brotherhood form doing what has to be done. Most of the people in the Commonwealth I am sure would agree with the Brotherhood's actions.

I'd rather be blown up than be effectively enslaved by The Brotherhood personally.

If The Brotherhood thinks they are a threat, just blow them up and get it done with. Don't sound the alarm, because you're not saving anyone. They all die in the wasteland anyway.

I mean, not everyone in The Institute worked at the FEV Lab or in SRB, and it seems Shaun kept them in the dark about the former almost completely. Its an entire society, not just an organization, so there's families, women, children and elderly inside its domed walls. Make it quick and get it overwith.

I haven't really progressed very far along the main quest but here are my impressions so far:

Minutemen - Made me a General.

Brotherhood of Steel - Seemed friendly enough. Offered to let me join. Haven't taken them up on it (yet).

Railroad - Haven't had any contact with them yet. At least they haven't tried to kill me.

Institute - Setting aside the whole murder/kidnapping episode, they've tried to kill me every time I've run into them. This is starting to get personal.

The minute man or BOS could search and rescue/shelter or captured the citizens and integrate into their society or in camp for labor and research (not on them. The knowledge would be very useful: More efficiency Water Refinery, better agriculture technological, restore a factory, etc., ,

Because Roger is a synth and he controls the experimental seeds? He just needs to take them with him when he returns to the Institute.

FEV testing led to synthetic radiation resistant organs so it wasn't just testing for fun.

The FEV tests being on raiders makes the most sense since we see the Institute invade Malden station. So the BoS, Railroad and Minutemen would have just killed them and the Institute used them for testing. Not sure why you think either of those outcomes is morally superior.

The Institute notes mention that they destroy the exceptionally aggressive and violent SuperMutants and tag and release the rest. They never say why they release them but they could be hoping to finish a cure and this way they could save those they tested on. It's never stated.

So the SuperMutants that attack me on sight in order to feast on my corpse are just run of the mill aggressive and violent? I'd sure hate to meet one of the exceptional ones!

So his family wouldn't catch on to Roger just destroying all the crops, taking all the seed and walking off into the Sunset? I guess it is possible they wouldn't think to stop him. But in the end the only way for the Institute to be sure everything is destroyed is to destroy it. They would also have to find a way to keep his family from coming back. Best way to do that is if they are dead.

As for the FEV and super mutants. They destroyed the aggressive ones and let the none aggressive ones go... Were they not aware that in time they get bigger and meaner? Behemoths aren't aggressive?

Bad writing I guess so what else is new. But as it stands the FEV program for whatever "good" it was for had horrible concquences, namely an army of super mutants causing chaos.

I also don't recall any good coming from the FEV program. I recall the guy going on about two decades of pointless experiments of turning people into super mutants.

And again just because the people were raiders doesn't make it a moral thing. It is no different than the Pre-War government using POWs or criminals for their research.

The scientist from Institute or Masoipa won't have much of a choice. (except suicide)

The notes just say the evidence of the experiment need to be destroyed. You seem to be looking to make them evil so you read into it.

FEV research started 100 years ago in game and resulted in radiation resistant organs used in Gen3's. They just haven't had any significant breakthroughs in 7 years.

The Institute doesn't care about the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth blamed them for the CPG falling apart so the Institute decided the Commonwealth was a lost cause. They aren't trying to actively destroy it but they definitely don't think it's their job to save it.

So killing raiders with bullets is good, experimenting on them instead is bad? That's an interesting moral stance.

I would imagine that if anyone did survive the explosion, the Brotherhood would take them alive if possible.

The Brotherhood already have Dr. Li and some others who were inside the Institute. So using them they could figure out who the person was and if they should live or not. Dr. Li might regret in the end agreeing to help the Brotherhood.

Destroying the Institute was more of a means to make sure all the tech is destroyed. Survivors might be held captive for as long they prove useful. Once they out live their use or have been proven to be part of the darker projects of the Institute would be executed.

The Brotherhood could already have the information from the mainframe right? We download stuff once we get into the Institute.

Right the Institute doesn't care about the Commonwealth. Screw all the people who suffer from the Super Mutants and chaos that they cause. They treat the people as lab rats.

First you assume that the super mutants were raiders and that everyone kidnapped by the Institute and replaced by Synth were bad people.

Second. Yes experimenting on living people against their will is definitely unethical. "First Do No Harm" - Hippocratic Oath.

If I kill someone in self defense or in the defense of others that is ethical. If I kidnap someone and do medical experiments on them that is not ethical. Why not just round up all the people in prison right now and harvest their organs and or subject them to medical experimentation? After all they are criminals so why not? If you can't see a moral difference between killing in self defense and unethical medical experimentation then there is no point in continuing this conversation.

He's telling the truth....first time I went back to RR HQ after Ft Hagen they were having a meeting about the Brotherhood. Dez flatly said that they were here to kill Synths and therefore had to be destroyed and said she already had Tom working on a plan to do it.

The RR is straight up a SJW faction...i've seen these types before, they will not be happy with getting rid of the Institute and the BoS, rather than declare victory and go home they will take up a new Cause to pursue fanatically....given their antipathy to Wastelanders for harboring a understandable, if misguided, prejudice against Synths, most likely that new Cause will be to impose "Social Justice" on the great unwashed in the Commonwealth with the gun and the bomb....for their own good, of course.

If they are in prison then their alternate state isn't not alive or experimented on.

The scientists at the institute don't take the Hippocratic Oath. They're more doctors in the academic doctoral sense then the medical doctor sense. Experimenting on living people takes place in the real world. It's a whole phase of drug and procedure development on its own.


I am starting to understand why you don't understand the writing and think it's bad though.

I get the writing. I get the world they are in and I see the Institutes view. I understand their view just like I understand the Master's, The Enclave, Barnaky's and Caesar's point of view.

What I am talking about is my own world view and why I see the Institutes actions as wrong and how it just so happens I agree with Arthur Maxson.

Medical experiments in the real world are done on willing human subjects. There are many countries in which the people aren't willing. In which people are arrested just so their organs can be harvested.

Willing humans is moral so long as they are made fully aware of what could go wrong. Unwilling is not moral, even if they are criminals and I am not a bleeding heart kind of guy.

If we are just playing Devil's advocate for the fun of debating that's fine by me and I would hope that is what you are doing.

Edit: As for the Institute's point of view. It would have been nice if Bethesda gave us more information on why Father did what he did.

About as interesting a moral stance as experimenting on them is good and killing them is bad.

The point is that neither is really good and that one isn't inherently better than the other.

There is no moral high ground in the game except for maybe the Minutemen.

Which is a great improvement over Fallout 3. That the factions have good and bad things about them.

Saving people from raiders is not a moral highground, but saving biotechnological machines from the brotherhood is?

http://i.imgur.com/DMM4RqE.jpg

What part of no moral high ground don't you get? This isn't an argument for the Railroad. It's stating that you're picking an evil no matter which way you go and that's intentional so the 'who's better' arguments are largely pointless and based purely on personal preference for the brand of bad you find the least offensive.

oh, okay. I disagree, but I better understand your statement now.

Not really, I'm suggesting that if I commit an act and that leads to someone being hurt then I am responsible, the Railroad is the pusher in the anology they willing place humans in danger every time they hide a Synth in a human community. They view the risk as being worth the benefit, but that benefit isn't helping mankind in anyway and regularly put humans in danger without their knowledge.

Where did Gabriel get that personality?

The Railroad.

The humans are to or worse argument doesn't absolve the Railroad of its actions unless you're giving the Railroad a special status in which they are except from the results of their actions.