Etiquette and Respect

Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:57 pm

Every once in a while we find it necessary to remind everyone of that important 7 letter word that should never be forgotten: respect. For any community of people to survive and thrive, it is of the utmost important that everyone show respect to each other. Society itself demands respect, and it has created specific suggestions to properly do so in the form of etiquette. Adhering to proper social etiquette ensures that respect is given. And let's remember the first thing we all learned in kindergarten: the "golden rule." If you wish to be treated nicely by others, you must be nice to them.

We understand this is the internet, and it is all too easy to hide behind a username and fling insults and otherwise act as a troll. That is an unfortunate truth about the nature of the internet....there is nothing we can do to prevent that. But we can strive to act otherwise on our little corner of the web and make it different. We can make our modding community a pleasant place to be, the type of place that nurtures creativity and sharing.

I have some suggestions on how we can accomplish this:

1. Be very careful when using another modder's work in your mod. Many of the mod host sites won't allow a mod that is plagiarized in any way. There is a community-accepted process for obtaining permission.
A. Read the readme. If permission is granted, use it. If it specifically says "no," then find something else.
B. Look on redwoodtreesprites's http://www.zyworld.com/redwoodtreesprite/MMRD_Homepage.htm (I am not aware if there is a similar resource for Oblivion, please notify me if there is.)
C. Try to contact the author. Readmes usually have email addresses. They may also be members of forums such as BSGF, PES, and GHF. You could try sending them a PM at one of those places.
D. Ask on a forum if anyone knows how to contact that author or if they know how that person feels about usage in general.
E. If you have had no luck, but nothing has expressly led you to believe the answer is "no," then go ahead and use it but include DETAILED credits in your readme.

2. Always remember that we mod for free because we enjoy modding. No modder owes you anything just because you are a "fan." But modders must also remember that those who play your mods do not owe you anything either.

3. A proper game set up with mods can take many days to create, and hundreds of hours can be put into bulding and refining a character. Modders must always remember that those who use their mods run the risk of having that destroyed when they use your mod through corrupt save files or other such catastrophes. It is the responsibility of anyone who makes a mod to ensure it is as stable and conflict-free as possible. The person who downloads a mod must also recognize the fact that there is always such a risk. And keep in mind that if you use a mod that requires a 3rd-party program such as MWE, MWSE, or MGE, odd occurences may happen. You should always use such things as if you were BETA testing something, expecting problems to arise at some point and taking proper precautions to back up your game.

4. Screenshots are always a great thing to use to promote your mod. When your mod adds new content of any sort, please try to include a screenshot if the download location allows it. Use your judgement though; if it is a simple tweak or something that cannot be showcased with a screenshot, there is obviously no need. A screenshot is NOT required for a mod to be posted on any site, so PLEASE do not harass a modder who has chosen not to include one. It is acceptable to remind or to inform a new modder that a screenshot would be appreciated and may help increase their download count. It is NEVER acceptable to rudely or continually demand that a screenshot be posted.

5. If the place you are downloading the mod from has a rating system, USE IT RESPONSIBLY. If you did not download or try the mod, you have no reason to vote and should not. Never give a mod a low rating simply because you think the idea is "dumb" or has already been done. Pages have been written about what criteria you should use when rating a mod; in the past I have said that you should simply look at the technical aspect, whether it does what it advertises to do. Please remember that I am a scripter rather than a story-teller or an artist, that is the criteria I use to judge my mods....so take that suggestion with a grain of salt. The purpose of the rating system is to inform others of whether or not a particular mod is worth trying out or if it is risky to use. Please use your best judgement, and remember that every mod has a person behind it who potentially dedicated hours to its creation.

6. If there is a legitimate problem with a mod, please use proper channels to report it to the author. Most modders start forum threads and include their email address in readmes. Always be polite when reporting bugs and problems. If it is a more serious problem, such as blatant plagiarism, please report it privately. It is appropriate to discuss it with the author as well as contact the administration of the sites that host the mod. Public confrontations serve no purpose other than to "feed the trolls." Avoid that at all costs.

Please remember that I am no authority of any sort. I am just a modder and a mod-user. I have volunteered my time and resources to help with the administration of Planet Elder Scrolls and Great House Fliggerty simply because I adore this community and want to give as much back as I have received. These things I have written here are only suggestions, but they are STRONG suggestions. I have seen people do the exact opposite of these and it has never gone well. People have stopped modding and taken their contributions away with them, friendships have been broken, projects have screeched to a halt, and people have been generally discouraged. None of that should ever happen, there is no cause for rudeness and negativity. Respect is the glue that holds this community together and continues to improve these games that we all take so much pleasure in playing and modding.

--Fliggerty
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Andy durkan
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:26 am

True dat.
This... deserves to be stickied.
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yermom
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 6:08 am

True dat.
This... deserves to be stickied.

+1

Although I'd add a line mentioning that you should NEVER have the mod replace a vanilla mesh/texture without making the user aware of the fact...
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Elizabeth Davis
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:58 pm

Redwood's site is way too out of date to be useful - I tried a few links to some resources, they go to defunct yahoo pages. In other words, the links provided by redwood go to pages that don't exist any more. :shrug: It hasn't been updated for four years, during which time many resources have come out. I'd suggest linking to a more recent compendium of resources, or to the ES search page, for locating resources.

Other than that small nitpick, I agree with your post about respect. :thumbsup: Uh, though, to be honest, I just skimmed through the Large Walls O' Text. :blush:

Hey, can you link to LHammond's Readme Generator? That thing is awesome for making detailed readme's with contact info and legal usage stuff. You have to tweak it by hand to be relevant to TESIII, but it doesn't take much doing.
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candice keenan
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:08 am

I agree that this should be stickied.

My issue on etiquette is small, but I felt it needs mention. When you're new to modding and asking a lot of questions, a simple thank you once in a while to the people who are helping you shows that you managed to get your issue resolved and that you appreciate the help offered. :)

And on this:
5. If the place you are downloading the mod from has a rating system, USE IT RESPONSIBLY. If you did not download or try the mod, you have no reason to vote and should not. Never give a mod a low rating simply because you think the idea is "dumb" or has already been done. Pages have been written about what criteria you should use when rating a mod; in the past I have said that you should simply look at the technical aspect, whether it does what it advertises to do. Please remember that I am a scripter rather than a story-teller or an artist, that is the criteria I use to judge my mods....so take that suggestion with a grain of salt. The purpose of the rating system is to inform others of whether or not a particular mod is worth trying out or if it is risky to use. Please use your best judgement, and remember that every mod has a person behind it who potentially dedicated hours to its creation.


Also please keep in mind what the mod was intended to do before you rate a mod. For example, if you've downloaded a faction mod that's designed for a faction that you are not playing, then you have no cause to judge all the content you're missing because you don't happen to be a member of that faction. Also, keep in mind what the game engine can accomplish, and don't come up with impossible requirements like "This mod should have unlimited quests." <-verbatim ;)
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Monika
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:09 am

Nice post, I very much agree. :)

Was there any specific reason why you're posting this now, if you don't mind me asking?
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Elizabeth Davis
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:29 am

@Alaisiagae, I think Fligg was trying to point out the permissions page she put together for all of us, http://www.zyworld.com/redwoodtreesprite/ModderOks/ModderOKs-Reuploading.htm
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Annick Charron
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 7:20 am

@Alaisiagae, I think Fligg was trying to point out the permissions page she put together for all of us, http://www.zyworld.com/redwoodtreesprite/ModderOks/ModderOKs-Reuploading.htm


Still, I think Alaisiagae has something of a point there.... That's the first time I've ever seen that page, and it's really a great idea. Reading that page I saw some Names (nay, legends) but there is nothing and nobody on the list since 2006 that I saw.

Many of those people have faded into obscurity, while others have moved to other things and some few remain, but you would think to look at it that no new modders had come along in four years or more.

I don't have a web site anymore, or I would do it, but it would be great if someone could pick up that torch, eh?
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xx_Jess_xx
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 9:03 pm

Still, I think Alaisiagae has something of a point there.... That's the first time I've ever seen that page, and it's really a great idea. Reading that page I saw some Names (nay, legends) but there is nothing and nobody on the list since 2006 that I saw.

Many of those people have faded into obscurity, while others have moved to other things and some few remain, but you would think to look at it that no new modders had come along in four years or more.

I don't have a web site anymore, or I would do it, but it would be great if someone could pick up that torch, eh?

I think there are too many morrowind modders to make such a list comprehensive. Most modders who care about permissions already mention their wishes in their mod readmes anyways; the others, those who dont write anything about it in their readmes are even more unlikely to voice their wishes on such a list in my opinion.
I think its best to just check readmes, and try to get in touch with modders if necessary. And to be honest, even if a modder is extremely clear in all his readmes on if and how he wants his stuff to be used in other mods, there are still some people who just wont take it into consideration (or maybe they dont even read the readmes), which can be really frustrating at times :/
To be fair though, from my experience most modders do pay attention to other modders' wishes. :)

I agree with everything mentioned in the first post, however I've always thought that most of what you say should be common sense to most people, basically you just have to be respectful towards others. I've also always thought that most of those who cant figure all this out by themselves (and those who dont care) are probably a/not going to change their behavior and b/not going to read or pay attention to suggestions like yours. But who knows...
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K J S
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:58 pm

I think these kind of reminders should be posted every once in a while because there are still plenty of new modders joining our ranks to this day, and they're probably not familiar with modding etiquette if they've never been a part of a modding (or other kind of creative) community before. A lot of this etiquette is very common sense in creative circles, but not elsewhere in general life, and quite a few new modders are young people who have never been a part of a creative community endeavor like this before.

As for players who download and use mods, yes these people are harder to reach with a message like this one. Many people download mods without any thought to the community that created them. They're there, and they're free, so they do as they like, and many never even glance at the readme before hastily posting a comment on PES saying, "Argh! I can't get such-and-such to work!". There's not much we can do about that true.
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megan gleeson
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 11:39 am

I agree that this should be stickied.

My issue on etiquette is small, but I felt it needs mention. When you're new to modding and asking a lot of questions, a simple thank you once in a while to the people who are helping you shows that you managed to get your issue resolved and that you appreciate the help offered. :)

And on this:


Also please keep in mind what the mod was intended to do before you rate a mod. For example, if you've downloaded a faction mod that's designed for a faction that you are not playing, then you have no cause to judge all the content you're missing because you don't happen to be a member of that faction. Also, keep in mind what the game engine can accomplish, and don't come up with impossible requirements like "This mod should have unlimited quests." <-verbatim ;)

Agreed. Like when someone releases a gun mod, and states the obvious: I know this isn't lore... and it gets rated poorly for not being lore.
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Jack
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:43 pm

I think these kind of reminders should be posted every once in a while because there are still plenty of new modders joining our ranks to this day, and they're probably not familiar with modding etiquette if they've never been a part of a modding (or other kind of creative) community before. A lot of this etiquette is very common sense in creative circles, but not elsewhere in general life, [...]

Not looking to start a debate or anything but I somewhat disagree with that bit, I don't think that what you call modding etiquette is disconnected from general life. Personally the morrowind modding community is the first and only creative community Ive ever joined, and I was a teenager when I fisrt started posting on the French wiwiland boards. That doesnt mean I didnt know I wasnt supposed to harass someone so I can get a mod to be modified to suit my taste, demand screeenshots for a mod I can choose not to download, or claim someone else's work as my own. These are just a few examples, but even though I didn't have a refined modding etiquette in mind back in 2005, all these things were already obvious to me. I just felt and knew it would be disrespectful.
Now this is only a modding community for a game, so maybe its best not to make a big deal over all that, but still, I disagree with the idea that newcomers are totally unware that they shouldnt do most of these things.

Again, I do agree with everything Fliggerty posted ^_^ This thread may make a few of these newcomers think twice before breaking any of these rules/suggestions, but I'm skeptical about the impact this kind of posts really have. Still, can't hurt trying.
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Chloé
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 8:40 am

I'm not saying that all newcomers would be unaware, but not all will be aware. People are raised with different relative values in life. I think this thread would be instructive to some people, and I think it's valuable.
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Naomi Ward
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 4:43 am

Nice post, Fligg. :)
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Angus Poole
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 am

@Mandamus
Not all modding communities are created equal, though. And I've seen a few places where it's generally accepted that once something gets released, it somehow becomes public domain. Where modders simply repackage other folks work and call it there own. Or where unless you completely rewrite one or more aspects of a game, and make it compatible with every mod ever made, you get virtually stoned with "leetness". It's not at all like that here, but it doesn't hurt to point out some ground rules once in a while. For example, spend a few minutes in one of our "neighbor" communities, (just make sure to wash off thoroughly before you come back). You'll see we have a unique corner here, and others who decide to try their hands modding Morrowind may be used to a different environment. tha interwebz iz a huuuj plates, after all.
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HARDHEAD
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 6:43 pm

I'm not saying that all newcomers would be unaware, but not all will be aware. People are raised with different relative values in life. I think this thread would be instructive to some people, and I think it's valuable.

@Mandamus
Not all modding communities are created equal, though. And I've seen a few places where it's generally accepted that once something gets released, it somehow becomes public domain. Where modders simply repackage other folks work and call it there own. Or where unless you completely rewrite one or more aspects of a game, and make it compatible with every mod ever made, you get virtually stoned with "leetness". It's not at all like that here, but it doesn't hurt to point out some ground rules once in a while. For example, spend a few minutes in one of our "neighbor" communities, (just make sure to wash off thoroughly before you come back). You'll see we have a unique corner here, and others who decide to try their hands modding Morrowind may be used to a different environment. tha interwebz iz a huuuj plates, after all.

All very good points, thanks for the answers. I still kind of think people should be able to figure out all this on their own, but I guess you're right when you point out people come from different backgrounds with different experiences etc. I didnt take that enough into account. As I said, I wasnt really trying to start a debate nor trying to derail the topic, so Ill leave it at that. ^_^
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Danger Mouse
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:11 am

Solid advice. Sticky.
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Kelsey Hall
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:18 am

This is pretty much common sense, but true. Tough I don't think its allways necessary to go that serious "by the books" on the etiquette as long as you are clear on the stuff that matters.
This Morrowind community is in my opinion, one of the friendliest there is :) heck, you should see what kinda stuff is going on at the finnish Mount & Blade forums for example.
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David Chambers
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 12:44 pm

Every once in a while we find it necessary to remind everyone of that important 7 letter word that should never be forgotten: respect. [snip for space]

Please remember that I am no authority of any sort. I am just a modder and a mod-user. I have volunteered my time and resources to help with the administration of Planet Elder Scrolls and Great House Fliggerty simply because I adore this community and want to give as much back as I have received. These things I have written here are only suggestions, but they are STRONG suggestions. I have seen people do the exact opposite of these and it has never gone well. People have stopped modding and taken their contributions away with them, friendships have been broken, projects have screeched to a halt, and people have been generally discouraged. None of that should ever happen, there is no cause for rudeness and negativity. Respect is the glue that holds this community together and continues to improve these games that we all take so much pleasure in playing and modding.

--Fliggerty

geeez, i always wanted to marry westly but now i want to marry you, flig :D ;)

this is so true, and i am grateful that someone can put it into the right words :) and
I still kind of think people should be able to figure out all this on their own, but I guess you're right when you point out people come from different backgrounds with different experiences etc
it is a bit sad that not everyone takes this for granted (i mean being polite in all stages of experience and background ;) ). trolling is international but i have to admit, that i sometimes have problems finding the right words and that my vocabulary cannot be the one of a mothertongue speaker, so i hope that all misunderstandings regarding to culture and limited language can be eliminated (of course as long as they aren't meant nasty for real). :)

i always felt very fine here and will do so for a long time i think :)
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Christine Pane
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 8:44 am

Saw this over at PES - Nice set of morale boundires flig :)

makes me proud to be part of this community - watching it evolve over the years has truly been a spectacular thing. Keep it up modders :)


Also i think that somewhere in there near the points about using other peoples work you should make refrence to the list of modders resources that has been stickied at these forums,

=MA=
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Lucky Boy
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 9:27 am

I have had an idea based on these comments of building a dynamically created modder permission list. A modder will be able to go and submit and edit their own permission at any point in time. I'll see what I can come up with. In the meantime, has anyone heard from redwoodtreesprite recently?
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Irmacuba
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 9:21 am

I have had an idea based on these comments of building a dynamically created modder permission list. A modder will be able to go and submit and edit their own permission at any point in time. I'll see what I can come up with. In the meantime, has anyone heard from redwoodtreesprite recently?


I think I saw a post by redwoodtreesprite at Canadian Ice's new place a couple of months ago, but that would be the last that I noticed.


EDIT:
Cancel that, I just checked and redwoodtreesprite hasn't been active there since 2007... It must have been someplace else, but I don't know where.
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Setal Vara
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 1:41 pm

I'll just repeat that this should be stickied, and add that there is also a stickied list of modders' resources http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1057001-list-of-morrowind-modders-resources/

I would like to add, however, that when somebody doesn't follow these rules and acts like a massive [censored], I never think that QUITTING MODDING FOREVAR and pulling your work from where it's available to the dozens or hundreds of people who adore it is a good response. Obviously, if modding has lost its joy for you and you no longer feel the urge to create, that's completely fine and understandable. But when you throw a tantrum and make damn sure that everyone in the community knows that you're leaving, it just puts you on the same childish level as the person or people who made you quit.
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Spooky Angel
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 11:13 am

People have stopped modding and taken their contributions away with them, friendships have been broken, projects have screeched to a halt, and people have been generally discouraged.
--Fliggerty


Yes, and everytime this happened, made me remind of something.

When I was a child, some decades ago, and I used to play with toys with other children, in each group of children there was always a child that used to say:"these are MY toys, and I decide who can play and who cannot play with them." and "did you touch my He-Man without my permission? I will take now all my Masters of the Universe TM to home, and I'll not let you all play with them anymore."
Whenever I asked "Why do you do this?" the only answer I got was "because they are mine, and I may decide what to do with them."

Whenever I contacted a modder that took away his/her contributions, asking "Why do you do this?" the only answer I got, like decades ago, was "It is mine, and I decide what to do with it"

I generally avoid to use someone else's work, I do (generally) everything by myself, and I do not use things where the author wrote very clear he did't want to be reused, but everytime I read something like this in a readme, I wonder "Why?"
I strongly believe that a work available to be modified, can only bring us all better and improved works. How many great works were not possible without contributions kindly made available from others?
I am working on the animation of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6TzEb1xNdQ, that you all probably know.
WHenever completed, it will be a resource for other modders. Maybe someone can rework it and give it a better animation, someone a better texture, someone else could include it in a great quest mod that I and hundreds of players may download and enjoy!
So, I don't say a modder cannot refuse permissions to reuse his works, I just wonder: why?
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Wane Peters
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 3:20 pm

So, I don't say a modder cannot refuse permissions to reuse his works, I just wonder: why?

You made a comparison with toys; I would compare my mods with drawings. I am not saying that what I am doing is art or quality stuff, that is not what I mean; rather, that I spend a long time making meshes and textures, and I do them the way I do drawings; they are my creations; most of them are not very impressive, but still, even when I make an especially terrible drawing, I dont want anyone to try and improve it. Since I see my meshes and textures as being similar to drawings, I dont want people to "improve" them. I know very well that most of my work can be improved, but I feel very uncomfortable at the idea of someone modifying any of it.
I dont mind when people use my work in their mods; I generally give permission to use it (I just want to be asked because it is polite and I like to see how my stuff is being used); however, I want it to be part of a mod, not the main focus. For instance, making a npc with one of my hairstyles is ok; a mod whose sole purpose would be to improve my work is mostly not ok (they'd have to ask me first).

I hope that doesnt sound self centered; as I said, I generally give permission for my stuff to be used in other mods; I just have limits on what can be done.
I also know that many modders dont share that point of view; it just happens to be mine.

And last but not least... I find some of my older stuff (a lot of it in fact) embarrassingly bad, and I dont really want to see it used a lot (not that many people would want to use it anyways :P)

Hope this answer helps you understand how I see things.
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Mimi BC
 
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