Bethesda wont include any of our ideas and the game will only have small gameplay improvements. I'm not trying to be pessimistic but I think its very possible that they dont even read our post. Tell me your thoughts.

Most of our topics are just the same stuff, every day.

Anyways, Skyrim has already improved in gameplay sense from we can see a great amount.

They do read our posts, I've seen some of them in a lot of threads. One admitted that they do come on, but just try to avoid posting for various reasons. Also, from what they've revealed about taking info from mods and about Skyrim, it really does seem like they've listened in many instances.

By no means will they incorporate everything, but I think we're going to be pleasantly surprised.

hahaha remember maiq hes the personification of the forums so i think they do hear our ideas and consider a few of them even implement a few. case and point remember all those many months ago? alot of people where hoping elder scrolls five would be set in skyrim. well guess where the games set at but i do think its a little late now for ideas.

ever wondered how some mods that were made for oblivion, are now in the core game in skyrim?

hahaha i bet the person who made the bow and arrow mod they are using in skyrim nearly wet there pants when they found out there mod is being put into skyrim :rofl:

Something tells me they might get a little extra something, something when Skyrim comes out. If I were Bethesda, I would give giving out incentives to those who's mods they are using in the core game.

What is Skyrim but Oblivion with TONS of improvements based on fan feedback and suggestions?

Todd's talked about it a few times in interviews.

First off, they see the community as being wider from this forum, so they're not just reading this forum but all the other gaming forums out there and getting an impression of what the "average gamer" as well as the devoted fan thinks of the game. They also have access to stats from xbox Live and PSN to see what people really are playing - what quests they're playing, how quickly they progress, how long they play for, etc. etc. That cuts down on the "noise" factor on forums - for example, it could be that people on the forum (the most hardcoe fans) are posting repeatedly about wanting a really long main quest and keeping one character for 500 hours - but when they look at the stats, they find that most people are completing the main quest in 20 hours and then starting a new character. I mean, I don't know that, and those stats might be saying something completely different, but it's an example of a situation where just because people on a forum are saying something very loudly, it might not reflect the more general experience.

What Todd has said is that, sure, they're very interested to read our ideas on the forum - but they also have over 100 people in their own office who also have really good ideas. What's more, because those people are in the business of making games, they have a better idea of what works and what doesn't in practice. We might think it's really cool to have a party of 10 companions with us at all times, but if someone suggests that at Beth HQ, they might immediately be answered with all the reasons why that wouldn't work when it came to play the game - everything from getting stuck in doorways to issues with balance and gameplay.

Bear in mind also that the game has also been in development since Oblivion came out. That means that a lot of things that we're seeing in the game that are the same as the ideas we've seen in mods were probably put into the game before those mods came out. That's not going to be true in every case - and Todd has said that he really loves seeing what we come up with - but just because something in a game is similar to something in a mod doesn't necessarily mean that it came from that mod.

That's why, yes, you're right to be "pessimistic" about Bethesda including any of our ideas in threads like these in the game. It ships in November, which means it must be virtually complete by now. The great ideas they had for the game had already been put into that game before these forums even opened.

What's the point of even having the forums then?

Because a lot of the ideas they get for the game - i.e. the ideas they were implementing four years ago - are actually when we complain about the things we don't like. Sure, we have to be polite and constructive, but to take an often-made point, it was pretty clear to the developers when Oblivion came out that people didn't so much like the level scaling system. They didn't need us to post threads or make mods about specifically how we'd do it differently or make it better - they can figure that much out for themselves - they just needed to know that it was something to go on the list of improvements for next time around.

That's not to say there's no point of discussing anything at this late stage. I'm sure they get plenty of ideas for DLCs and future games from our posts here. It's just that if I posted that I really wanted bunnies in the game - and got 20,000 of my friends to post the same - I'd have to face the inevitable disappointment that there's no possibility now of them being included. If I get the game and there are bunnies in the game, it equally wouldn't be because I posted about it here, but because one of the designers had the same idea several years back and they already put it in the game.

of course there not going to include most of our ides, a lot of them are stupid, or just impossible, but the game will be a major improvement and there are some ideas on the forums that are going in skyrim, like enchanting returning

Yeah....what he said.

There are plenty of great ideas that won't ever get implemented because they are considered "Hard Core" and would frustrate the "Average User". It's a shame that's the way it is, since this is supposed to be an RPG and not an "Average" pick up and put down game.

I think that sometimes the "Average User" is more important than the actual RPG fans who love and want a really complicated RPG. That also is a shame.

I think that line specifically is important, as I see a lot of people on the forums come up with things that I think are great ideas, but then they come up with how to implement it and a bunch of smaller details and the implications they are suggestion are just awful and would ruin the idea.


That, I think, is not true at all. There are months and months left in development. If Bethesda wanted to include bunnies, they could EASILY include bunnies in that time. It's not as though the game is done and they're just giving very slight tweaks to gameplay. They're still adding new things, they're still improving old things. It would take no time at all to include bunnies. Even much more complicated things like giving the player the ability to turn into a werewolf, there's still plenty of time to include that as well. The possibility is most definitely there.

The very first preview of Skyrim in Game Informer showed us page after page of things that were requested in these forums:

• A pack of wolves (rather than the solitary wolves of Oblivion)
  
• Dual wielding
  
• Elimination of the class system
  
• Better variety of terrain types
  
• Random quests
  
• Random quests tailored to our character
  
• New mundane activities for the player, such as woodcutting, farming, and cooking
  
• Dragons
  
• Perks
  
• No zooming in to an NPC's face for dialog
  
• Time doesn't freeze during conversation with an NPC

My list probabably missed some things too, and it includes only what was in the very first preview. It does not include things that were revealed afterward, such as travel by carriage.

Bethesda is an imaginative team, so it may be entirely coincidence that they are doing what so many of us requested, though I doubt it.

An idea isn't going to be rejected because it's "hard core," it's going to be rejected if it a.) unbalances the game, b.) would be too ridiculous to implement, or c.) would be despised by the general populace. And even "hard core" gamers, which has an entirely subjective meaning btw, are not united in liking all of the suggestions spouted on the forums. So much of what I see here would make the game terrible if implemented the way people suggest, especially several of the ideas for adding things to give the game a fake difficulty. Most of these ideas will be ignored because they're poorly thought out, wouldn't appeal to the majority of the people willing to buy Skyrim (including a good amount of dedicated fans), and would unbalance the game.

Also, cut the elitist b.s. Casual gamers can be fans of RPG's as well, and want to see a good game. A good game is not overly complicated, it finds a balance and manages it well. Stop assuming that everyone who disagrees with the sentiments about ridiculous gameplay is an "average user."

I don't mean to nitpick, but I wouldn't describe those ideas as being unique to these forums.

• A pack of wolves (rather than the solitary wolves of Oblivion) : The Witcher
  
• Dual wielding : Dragon Age
  
• Elimination of the class system : Fallout
  
• Better variety of terrain types : Morrowind. I'll grant that it was a common criticism of Oblivion, but one made widely and not just on this forum.
  
• Random quests : Fallout
  
• Random quests tailored to our character : Guild Wars 2 (if I recall correctly)
  
• New mundane activities for the player, such as woodcutting, farming, and cooking : Fable
  
• Dragons : Dragon Age. I also bet there are dragons in Dungeons & Dragons. You could also say there was a dragon in Oblivion.
  
• Perks : Fallout
  
• No zooming in to an NPC's face for dialog Fable 2. Half Life 2, for that matter.
  
• Time doesn't freeze during conversation with an NPC Fable 2

Did you not see the thread dedicated to the TESV suggestions that was active for years leading up to Skyrims release?

Just because Betthesda isn't adding every single idea we've suggested here doesn't mean they don't read our posts, there are many things being suggested here, and let's be realistic here, there's no way Bethesda could add them all, and let's face it, even if they could, that doesn't mean adding every suggested feature would be a good idea. For one thing, to put it plainly, not every idea suggested here is a good one. Of course, there have good ideas here, but that certainly doesn't mean everything suggested here will work. Now, obviously those who make suggestions here beliweve their ideas are good, but that doesn't mean everyone agrees, it doesn't mean Bethesda agrees, it certainly doesn't mean the majority of the potential market agrees. and Bethesda needs to think about that, they can't just think about a potentially small amount of fans here who may not even represent the feelings of these forums as a whole, let alone Skyrim's many potential customers who do not post here, I know some of the so called "hardcoe fans" like to pretend that only their opinions matter, but Bethesda doing the same could prove to be a fatal mistake. Some ideas suggested here might please a select few, but would just annoy or potentially drive away most gamers, and some ideas might not be bad ideas in themselves, but would simply not fit the direction Bethesda has chosen for the game, adding in everything everyone has suggested, if it were doable at all, would turn the game into a huge mess with no consistent direction, and most likerly, in it's efforts to please everyone, it would end up pleasing no one.

Besides, the game has already reached a certain stage in development, it had even when it was first announced, and it may be that it's too late to include many ideas that Bethesda might have gladly considered or even added if it were sooner in development. Now, I'm not saying it's too late to add anything to the game, some of the things we've heard in interviews actually suggest Bethesda is still experimenting with some things, but the fact is that any new idea Bethesda could consider adding to the game requires additional work, some more so than others. Not only does that idea need to be implemented, it also needs to be tested, balanced, and so on, and some other aspects of the game might also need changing to accomodate it and ensure they work well with it, sometimes, it may just be that it's simply too late to add the feature, trying to do so could lead to the game becoming like Duke Nukem Forever.

Now, I'm certainly not saying I wouldn't like to see some of the idea's suggested here in the game, like I said, some of them are pretty good, I'm simply saying that it's unreasonable to expect all of them to be added, even more so to suggest that just because they weren't all added, it shows that Bethesda is neglecting their fanbase.



I think it's a shame that there are some who are so arrogant as to think that they're desires are more important than anyone else's just because theu can cleam that they are "hardcoe gamers", implying that they are somehow superior to other gamers just because they have different tastes in games from them, which is, of course, complete and utter nonsense that they spew in order to make themselves look more intelligent. But if they really were more intelligent than the so called "casual gamers", then they really wouldn't NEED to prove it in such a fashion, they'd also be able to grasp that the developers have nothing to gain by neglecting a far larger market in favor of their small niche.

If being a "true RPG fan" means showing that kind of elitist mentality, I'm glad that Bethesda decided to appeal to the "casual gamers".



Of course they've been done before, and in quite a few games other than the ones you mentioned, but that's to be expected. Coming up with a completely original idea for a game is not something you can do every day, and if you think of an idea that HASN'T been done before, that may well be because it's either not a good idea, or not feasible, usually, whatever you do, someone else has done it too, but that doesn't matter too much, because a game doesn't have to do something no one has done before to be worthwhile, it just needs to do it well, but we're talking about these ideas being suggested here, and while it's true that other games have done them, it's been made quite clear that the Elder Scrolls fans, a portion of them, anyway, do want them, now, maybe Bethesda didn't add them spicifically because they were suggested on these forums, maybe some of them were added because Bethesda looked at other games that have them, and thought "We should do that too." but we can't know that, we can only judge what we get, and if that happens to be what we asked for anyway, I see no reason to question if it's because we suggested it or not.

You're right, thanks. My wording was sloppy. I did not mean to imply that the ideas originated in our forums. People expressed an interest in these ideas and Bethesda implemented them. So, whatever Bethesda's source for these ideas, the ideas themselves were not ignored.

It's a shame - if that post didn't have an unnecessarily hostile tone towards other members, I'd call it just about the most sensible post we've had on this forum.

I do think it is fair to describe some fans as "hardcoe" Bethesda fans and others as more casual fans. If you're registered on this forum and posting regularly, by definition you can consider yourself a hardcoe fan. It's equally fair to note that there are only 174,000 members of this forum, and not all of us are here for Skyrim. If it only sells as well as Oblivion or Fallout 3, it will still shift around 5 million copies, so even if every single person on this forum was here for Skyrim, we'd represent maybe 3% of the total fanbase.

Some players like to describe themselves as "hardcoe RPG fans", and that's equally fair, because those people play more RPGs than any other type of game and prefer games that match traditional D&D styles to games that incorporate elements from other genres (such as action and adventure games), but most of those people understand that Bethesda make games in a certain way that doesn't strictly adhere to only one genre type and does include those other elements. It's fine to like those games or not like those games, but Bethesda doesn't present the game as a traditional D&D-style roleplaying experience, so most people buying the game will know in advance that it will appeal more to the type of gamer who enjoys all types of games, and therefore the people with the broader (perhaps more action-oriented) tastes in gaming will inevitably massively outnumber the ones looking for a more specific type of experience.

They read em. No, they probably aren't going to include any of our ideas so late in development.

As for gameplay. I think it has improved quite a bit.

And within the world of Oblivion (and especially its mods):

• A pack of wolves (rather than the solitary wolves of Oblivion) : Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul; dunno about others but I'd be surprised if MMM didn't implement this as well at least.
  
• Dual wielding : Mods exist for this. Seph Dual Wield for one.
  
• Elimination of the class system : Not eliminated, but Oblivion XP goes at least a little way to removing some of the issues with the class system implementation.
  
• Better variety of terrain types : The Unique Landscapes project, and Open Cities.
  
• Random quests : Not sure if this is entirely what's meant, but some mods out there have a pool of quests from which some are randomly chosen.
  
• Random quests tailored to our character : Not sure if this can be done, or if it has if it can.
  
• New mundane activities for the player, such as woodcutting, farming, and cooking : There are at least a couple of cooking mods.
  
• Dragons : Playable anthropomorphic dragon races, at least.
  
• Perks : Wouldn't the abilities you can get at certain skill levels count as perks? Most mods seem to concentrate on improving existing perks, not sure if new ones are possible as such.
  
• No zooming in to an NPC's face for dialog : Engine limitation?
  
• Time doesn't freeze during conversation with an NPC : Again, engine limitation?

They do, You can easily tell that they do.

There was a suggestion thread for years!

You mean they don't listen to random strangers on the internet to put things in their game? THE FIENDS!!!

And it's a good thing they're doing that, most of the ideas that I've read here tend to be really bad...


THIS!!

This "hardcoe True RPG fans" thing really annoys me. They tend to be one of the most conservative people there is, seeing any change as a bad thing. If RPGs would only made for the "hardcoe people" we would still be playing text-only games with a single random diceroll for stats as character creation.