The Enclave said nothing about being there and the only explainations are speculation at best coming from one quote that, "Eden was a Presidential Advisor to the last President." Whilst I can justify why they are there, in my own opinion, it is not because the capital is symbolic to their organisation but rather that Eden came to power by legitimate means through the Presidential Line-of-Succession and simply ordered them there.

In the orginal ending of the game, the virus wipes the CW clean. With Broken Steel added (a DLC that was kind of thrown together at the last minute to placate the people who wanted to continue their game) the virus apparently doesn't do that much (although it could be that the death tolls we see in Broken Steel would continue to rise). Either way, I tend to believe the "slate wiped clean version".

I just find that very illogical. The virus' entire objective was to go airborne how could whatever sample the Enclave have brought East be both lacking the capability to go into air and easier to introduce into water than air. It was designed to be airborne. The next best alternative is to work on the virus until you can get it airborne and then shift your operations to a position where you can introduce it to the jetstream like the initial plan was. Eden's plan to reclaim the Capital Wasteland doesn't help with that and in fact hurts the Enclave's chances by exposing themselves extremely prematurely and wasting resource securing land that is completely meaningless.

Symbols only matter if you're trying to appeal to something. The Enclave doesn't have anything to appeal to. They don't accept outsiders and anyone already in the Enclave is prettymuch devoted to the mission or disillusioned and highly unlikely to change their mind if the capital is retaken. Securing D.C. won't suddenly make Enclave deserters and those likely to desert reconsider their opinion of it. Any pre-war information is presumably stored in Raven Rock as much as it is in the wrecked Pentagon and if Liberty Prime is so important then why not focus the Enclave on securing the Pentagon instead of wasting their time with Project Purity?



Yes I know. But again how does poisoning the water supply in D.C. do anything to help achieve the Enclave's goals in the long run? Autumn's plan at least made some sense since he intended to use the purifier to rally the wastelanders to him thereby actually strengthening the Enclave. Eden is just wasting resources on a goal that is completely meaningless and helps their overall plans in no way. Also wasn't Autumn's initial occupation of the purifier under Eden's orders? There seemed to be plenty of troops and ordnance involved in that.

He shouldn't have used it because it completely tipped his hand and exposed the Enclave long before they were capable of really doing anything. Also all the stuff you're coming up with now (Eden just wanted breathing room for longer-term operations, it was meant to be a minor act of subterfuge, he was eventually planning to resort to the airborne virus anyway) is just fanon to excuse the fact that Eden and the Enclave are myopically focused to the point of utter incompetence on purifying the Capital Wasteland even though this would be a meaningless victory. Eden never mentions any of these long-term goals in the game and frankly you'd think he would. The more logical conclusion is just that Eden is a really inept President who has become obsessed with restoring D.C.

I'll address the questions in bold in order.

1. How does Autumn's plan make sense? By the same logic you are using, Autumn's occupation of the purifier was a pointless endeavor that served no purpose. Autumn's plans were completely against the ideas of the Enclave, do you really think a group of people obsessed with the idea of genetic purity to the point of genocide would just drop that in an instant and welcome people they regarded as inferior mutants before into their embrace? Autumn's plan would have ended in disaster and would have likely turned into a genocide plan anyway. Eden's plan would have invovled little effort on the part of the Enclave and wouldn't have involved their exposure to anyone outside of DC. It was a simple act of subterfuge that would have given the Enclave breathing room in DC. It is not necessary to think that they would have begun forming settlements and pouring into the DC wasteland, they could have just stayed put in Raven Rock. But a plan to poison the water and kill off their enemies would have meant that there would be no opposition to furthuring the Enclave's plans for both DC and the rest of the U.S and would have prevented the Brotherhood of Steel in DC from becoming enough to challenge them, or finish a secret project that could breach Raven Rock....say....Liberty Prime? The Enclave in Fallout 2 was destroyed by the act of an enemy they had underestimated and who had breached a supposed impregnable fortress. Why wouldn't they want to take out the people around them who could possibly do such a thing again?

2. What resources did Eden waste? Any loses at the Purifier were a result of the reckless action of Autumn. Eden sent one guy in (the LW) to get his work done, if anything, Eden then advocated a policy of conservation of resources. Instead of battling the Brotherhood and mutants and losing men, Eden advocated a subtle but deadly strike.

3. We really don't know. Given Autumn's actions later on, it is entirely possible that Autumn acted of his own accord. Even if Eden did order the occupation, it was a fairly subtle attack, the Brotherhood wouldn't have even been alerted if Dr. Lee and the others hadn't escaped. Also, just because Eden may have ordered its initial occupation, doesn't mean that he intended for it to be held against all costs.

4. How incapable were they? By all accounts, if it wasn't for the ridiculous God machine that is Prime, the Brotherhood stood no chance if it came to a fight. Eden's plan was simpy to prevent that fight by using a biological weapon.

5, 6. I think I've explain how it wouldn't really be a meaningless victory. And your right that this is largely not backed up by specifics in game, but your theory that the Enclave should have had access to an airborne version of the virus right away is also speculation, doesn't matter if its illogical or not (alot of things in Fallout 3 are illogical). Prehaps I shouldn't have put words in the Presidents mouth regarding the plans for an airborne virus, becuase apparently there was a reason the virus wasn't just released in airborne form. If airborne exposure was impossible then, it makes the construction of an Enclave "homeland" all the more important.

7. I would tend to disagree. I would say that most of your points should be directed against Autumn, not against Eden.

Andronicus I'm going to have to go with Okie here, to say the Eden is obsessed with DC is a legitimate statement I think. I've already said why I didn't think the water posion would work and Autumn is, technically, a traitor and his, illogical, poorly written, sense-defying rebellion/plan are therefore not the plans of the Enclave.

Exactly why is everyone replying to this is if it were a F3 specific question? sorry if i am missing something, but this would be a fallout general question to me.

Because whether or not he managed to change the Enclave to be somewhat accepting of outsiders his objectives did make sense. Remember that scenario you laid out earlier where the Enclave could grow and expand on the other side of the continent? That's what Autumn is trying to do but if he can recruit the remnants of the population on the East Coast he's not stuck with the tiny little band of survivors the Enclave has devolved into. He's trying to win outside support and make the Enclave a genuine power. Whether that would've worked or not (I don't think it would've) it's still more reasonable than Eden's use of the purifier which is a total waste.



Again though if they wanted to take out the people around them who could possible do such a thing why didn't they focus on actually taking them out instead of indirectly (and slowly) taking them all out by cleansing genetic mutations? Attack the Pentagon with Vertibirds. Launch a pre-emptive strike don't sit around inviting an attack and giving the Brotherhood time to repair Liberty Prime by messing around with Project Purity. Eden's plan isn't to kill those who pose a threat, it's to fulfill the overall Enclave goal of cleansing genetic mutations but on such a small scale that it's pointless. It's like he's forgotten the Enclave does have means of killing people other than the modified FEV.



He wasted a significant garrison occupying the Purifier that could've been used to attack the Citadel or simply secure Raven Rock until the airborne virus was ready to go.



I find that difficult to believe. If Autumn had already gone rogue by the initial occupation then why does he listen to Eden's orders at all on the return to Raven Rock? It seems pretty clear that he was occupying the Purifier as the first step in Eden's plan and that Eden only used the Lone Wanderer because he had no other options. It wasn't that he planned for a single covert agent to do the job it's just he had no other resources to call on.



Again though if the Brotherhood stood no chance in a fight attack the Pentagon. If the Brotherhood was a potentially dangerous foe then why invite an attack by sending out eyebots and attacking the Purifier before the virus was even ready to be deployed. This doesn't speak much of Eden's leadership. There is simply nothing to support the idea that the modified FEV is meant to be a precision strike against the Brotherhood. The very nature of the weapon argues against it and makes it pretty clear that Eden has become obsessed with implementing the Enclave's plan in D.C. but without realizing that implementing the plan in D.C. only is completely pointless.



It's hardly speculation that the Enclave should've had access to an airborne version of the virus. The virus was designed to be airborne. It was ready to go by the end of Fallout 2. It makes absolutely zero sense that the Enclave would somehow retain knowledge of the virus without possessing the knowledge to make it airborne when it was an airborne virus while also actually finding it easier to redesign it for deployment in water. Yes a lot of things in Fallout 3 are illogical. Eden's plan is one of them.

See I don't know about you but given the choice between "Eden is incompetent" or believing that the Enclave knew something about the virus, but not enough to make it viable to deploy via air, even though that was the entire purpose of the initial virus, and instead found it easier to redesign a virus initially designed for air into the water I'm gonna go with Eden is incompetent. It's not really surprising that a supercomputer never designed for sentience who based his personality off countless US presidents might not be the most rational leader around and might even be fixated on reclaiming the nation's capital.



Whatever you may think of them Autumn's plans revolved around the Purifier for a reason. Eden's plans seem to encompass the Purifier simply because it was needed as a plot point.

Prehaps it is. But I think to say that Eden was an inept President is putting blame in the wrong area. I, in all honesty, blame Autumn for the Enclave's defeat in DC via his "lets hold the purifier and earn the people's loyalty" plan. This was not Eden's plan and actually, Eden's plan is the only way the Enclave "wins" in Fallout 3 (of course in real life this is a result of poor story choices but still).

Oh I'm not denying that in the short-term Eden's plan would work it's just in the long-term the Enclave's victory in D.C. is completely meaningless and cannot be replicated on a wider scale. I see no indication that Eden grasps that.

There's no need for the Enclave to be investing so much in D.C. and there's no need for them to be working on water-borne viruses and such. Just stick with the original plan.

Same, it could have worked but seems so limited in scope and a very significant risk to the survival of the species itself.

Prehaps that is becuase Eden was cautious in regards to the capabilities of the Brotherhood to fight back. As much as I hate the Brotherhood in Fallout 3, they did manage to be resourceful and fight off the Enclave. By all accounts, yes, the Enclave should have mopped the floor with the Brotherhood, but frankly, they didn't in the game and while this may be largely a result of issues with Bethesda's writing, the Brotherhood were still able to fight them off at Adams following the Project Purity disaster. There is also the possiblity a full scale attack would have meant the unification of others under the Brotherhood, making this even more complicated.

In regards to Autumn's plans, what was he going to do when he supposedly earned people's loyalty? His ideas are completely incompatiable with the Enclave and would have meant the destruction of everything they stood for (genetic purity). How do you think Enclave citizens would have taken it if they were forced to serve side-by side with people they had been taught from birth were inferior disgusting mutants? It would have been anarchy, to say the least. Its also not what I meant by expansion, I meant expansion through the Enclave's own means, anything else and you basically have a carbon copy of the NCR. And your right, Autumn's plan didn't work, it led to the Enclave's destruction when he tried to hold project purity.




As I've said, that was Autumn who commandered those troops, Eden never ordered it. (and if you are referring to the intial occupation, how many troopers were there, like 15?)





Just because he took the intiative to occupy the base without the President's orders (if that is indeed what happened) that doesn't mean that he "went rogue" and just would've given a big "SCREW YOU!" to Eden right then and there. Autumn's character is obviously very conflicting and confusing (and poorly written) he may have believed he was acting under the Presidents orders, or doing what he would have wanted. If Eden did order the occupation then, it doesn't mean Eden intended to do what Autumn did and hold it against the Brotherhood, maybe step 2 in Eden's plan was to order Autumn to poison the water as soon as the project was operational (or before actually) but Autumn didn't comply (which led to his leaving Raven Rock).



The Brotherhood were apparently really surprised when the Enclave showed up so it looks as if those eyebots were largely ignored. The eyebots in the game also don't share a sphere of influence with the Brotherhood (they never meet). The propoganda was intended to prehaps instigate attacks on the Brotherhood and to weaken a possible concerted effort against the Enclave when the attack came.




You're right, it is not a precision strike against just the Brotherhood, it is a precision stike against the Supermutants, Outcasts, Talon Company, Regulators, mutant animals, and the Brotherhood. What do you consider to be Eden's plan? All we know for sure is he intended to sabotage the purifier and kill off many possible threats to Enclave operations in the process, everything else was Autumn.








Prehaps it makes zero sense but thats apparently what happened. The virus was not well known amongst anyone but the top-tier of the Enclave, somehow, someway, they retained the basic knowledge of how to modify the FEV but not to get it airborne. I would find it hard to believe that a supercomputer which is designed for efficiency would completely ignore a easier solution if it was avaible. Do you think Eden went "Well we got the airborne ready...but naaaaww we'll use the water-based one".?




Frankly I don't understand this. You are confusing Autumn's plan with Eden's plan. Autumn was the one who held the purifier and lost many men against the Brotherhood onslaught, for no apparent reason (you state yourself his plan would have failed). When I put the virus in the purifier in my game, its a positive outlook for the Enclave, that if anything should tell you something.

Also I have a question for you. Do you think Richardson was a illogical leader?

I agree, I believe that Autumn may have wanted a Vault City-esqu system of segregation, an Enclave administration built upon the backs of essentially a slave workforce for whom the choice was back-breaking labour for food, saftey, water and shelter or the wasteland where nothing is garuteed. Autumn was no pansy, he made examples and didn't oppose the "Genetic Compliancy Tests" or the checkpoints in general; surely they came under his juristiction.



Surely there would have been word-of-mouth though, the Eyebots don't exactly blend in.



Maybe they couldn't manufacture an airborne virus, perhaps the capital or chemicals were not available, the supply chain in Fallout 2 was huge don't forget, in F3 the Enclave had none.



Don't bring the big R into this, Richardson almost won. What do you think was illogical about him?

Its possible but it seems that either the Brotherhood didn't believe what they were hearing, or just thought the eyebots were remnants of pre-war propoganda or something (thats what the wastelanders thought, they believed Enclave radio was "on a loop"). It still remains that the Brotherhood (and everyone else) were taken completely by surprise.




This is very true and hasn't been brought up. Prehaps with the supply line obviously not there, the capablity to make the virus airborne was gone.




Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I think he was an excellent leader. I was just curious as to Okie's thoughts on him.

Damn right, I'm a traditionalist Enclave man, don't know about you; had you pegged as an Edenist, correct? I don't think anyone I've seen on these forums agrees with me about the Fallout 2 Enclave plan, that it is perfectly justifyable and would yield overwhelmingly positive results.

I suppose I am an Edenist (I like that term). I have admired his character ever since I first heard him speak on the radio and I've tried to defend him any chance I get on here.



Indeed. :foodndrink:

Pervailing winds in the latitudes that the US sits in blow from South West to North East. Releasing curling fev into the atmosphere at raven rock would pacify the atlantic ocean.

Well there's that settled, not to Bethesda's credit of course, I'm sure that there was no intention behind it.

Then wait until the orbital weapons platform in Broken Steel is operational and hit the Citadel. It just seems like the Enclave's focus on the Purifier needlessly exposes them and their plans.



I don't think they would've served side by side. The pure Enclave probably would've formed the government and military while the wastelanders served as more of a slave labor force. Again I don't think this plan would've worked I'm just saying for Autumn's plan it is integral to hold the Purifier but Eden's focus on it seems extremely pointless.



I haven't played Fallout 3 in ages but I assumed the garrison you fight at the end were the same troops that occupied the Purifier initially you just didn't see all of them. Nor would they all have shown up in the first wave. Otherwise Autumn is either moving in troops before you retrieve the GECK and surely Eden would've noticed that and tried to stop it or he evacuates everyone and sets up all the defenses in the brief window between the Lone Wanderer's escape from Raven Rock and the assault on the Purifier which seems incredible.



If Autumn is moving that many Enclave troops without orders then there's no way he can be deluding himself into still believing he's following Eden. Again you're just writing fanon to backdate Autumn's split with Eden so as to absolve Eden from the blame of occupying the Purifier when everything we have indicates the split takes place when the Lone Wanderer is in Raven Rock.



Brotherhood incompetence doesn't mean Eden exposing Enclave operations just to spout propaganda is any wiser. Also if the eyebots can't deliberately target the Brotherhood without exposing the fact that they are not pre-war broadcasts and Eden doesn't really care about rallying support from the Capital Wasteland's inhabitants for the US government what's the point of them? All it does is indicate the Enclave is around in some capacity.




Only one of whom has any real ability to threaten Raven Rock. If Eden just wants breathing room hit the Citadel with everything he has. I mean how is poisoning the water going to stop an imminent activation of Liberty Prime anyway? The Brotherhood must have their own water supplies so it's going to take a fair bit of time for them to have to abandon the Citadel and by that time the big satellite weapon will probably be in position. Again, everything we have indicates Eden views the modified FEV in the water supply not as a means to an end but as an end to itself.



Or perhaps Eden, having never been designed for sentience or to function in any leadership capacity whatsoever is just not a very good president who has become obsessed with getting the capital back?



It's a positive outlook in the sense that they have managed to win in D.C. It's not positive when you realize that winning in D.C. doesn't matter at all and doesn't bring the Enclave any closer to accomplishing it's goals.



No Richardson was brilliant and unlike Eden was on the verge of complete success. Eden was on the verge of clearing a tiny little piece of wasteland possession of which would grant the Enclave nothing.

So the Enclave's retreat to D.C. is a complete strategic dead-end.

This is why I find it impossible to call Eden's plans sounds.

Well Eden was technically in-charge, not to go would essentially nullify the Enclave.

They must've had some sort of remote communications at Navarro.

Granted I'm not saying the Enclave had a lot of options available to it after the Oil Rig was lost but being the only course of action doesn't make a bad plan any better.

Well of course most definately communications existed, more than likely Satilite or PoseidoNet. Eden being on Richardon's Cabinet is the closest thing to some kind of explaination available as to why he is in-charge. It was an incredibly risky and silly plan in my opinion, going all that way. But Eden was technically in command and therefore the Enclave will obey orders.

In Eden's plan it was not integral to hold the purifier, what was integral to Eden's plan was somebody pushing a vial into the console. You are still acting as if Eden ordered Project Purity to be held at all costs, thats not what happened, Autumn occupied the purifiier and he was the one who set up the defenses against the Brotherhood.




Its not really that incredible. It must not have taken Autumn, flying by Veritibird (a small fleet of vertibirds mind you, which means he added troops to the garrison) more than a few hours to reach project purity. It may have taken the Lone Wanderer upwards of a day or more to get back to the Citadel, which would have allowed plenty of time for Autumn to dig his men in (mind you, we are not going by real life time, as in it may take you a whole of 5 minutes to get back to project purity, but for the LW it was much longer, and there is no definite time set as to how long it took the LW to get back).



You say that, but try to convince Autumn to just get up and leave when you get inside the control room during "Take it Back". His exact words are (after blantingly countermanding an order by the President in Raven Rock) that the "chain of command must be upheld". He believes he is still loyal to Eden.



The split does take place when the LW is at Raven Rock. Autumn hadn't left yet with a significant portion of the Enclave's forces and project purity hadn't been fortified against the Brotherhood's assault before that point. From the time when Autumn leaves Raven Rock onwards, any actions by Enclave forces and the loss at Project Purity is on Autumn's head, Eden did not condone Autumn's actions.




Eden doesn't really care about rallying support, but he cares about causing dissention amoung the enemies ranks and making them think that what the Enclave will be doing (at project purity for instance) is for their benefit and to dissuade any concerted resistance against the Enclave's actions. They are also excellent spies and reconissance bots which could be used to get a lay of the land.




And risk the lives of American soldiers and valuable resources? We also don't know if the Enclave had the ability to use Hercules-Bradley during the time that Eden was in control. If Eden's plan had been enacted correctly, it would have meant a minimal effort on the part of the Enclave, consisting of poisoning the water and getting back to Raven Rock and shutting the doors. It would not have stopped an imminent activation of LP (and he was unknown to the Enclave anyway), but it certainly would have stopped any other threats that could have been dreamed up later on. The Enclave had underestimated the resourcesfulness of a group out west, and had been taken by surprise when a lone tribal was able to breach their defenses and cause a catastrophe. Would the Enclave in the west have succeed if they had found a way to commmit local-california based genocide to wipe out any groups and any possible threats to a plan of worldwide genocide? Absolutely they would have.




Does it say that in the slides though? Sounds like you are writing fanon. Who are we to say that it wouldn't have made a difference?




What else could they have done? Where could they have gone? Where is there a fully ready and garrisoned base just waiting for the Enclave to get there?

One is presuming that the release of Curling was still their only option.

The way I see it is that theiy've lost all of their active resources as they're mostly on the rig, and have at least Raven Rock full of weapons, ammo and other goodies. that said, surely there'd be some other shelter of resources a bit closer to the rig.

Hw would being in DC be a strategic dead end?

If the ultimate goal is to re-establish a government, having a major base in the areas of the far east and west of the continent would be pretty advantageous.