Skyrim is a great game which i definitely love for what it is. However i do believe that nothing is perfect and that striving for perfection is always a good thing.
I won't ask you to support spell making, if you really don't want it, but i'll ask you to read and consider the points this thread makes. If you are bored/not have time to read it, it would be appropriate that you don't cast your vote on this poll. Constructive answers are appreciated (a lot more than trolling).

Decided to make a thread that sums up some things about Spell making and secondarily about spell effects and the general magic system in Skyrim.
The purpose of this thread, like others, is to let Bethesda know about how we feel about spell making being excluded.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1302338-a-small-observation-on-the-amount-of-spells-in-the-game/, on the magic in general, in Skyrim compared to its predecessor:



Lore - For people who think that spell making is not lore-friendly

It is a fact Nords hate magic. There are a few mages here and there but are shunned by the majority of people in Skyrim, except maybe the court wizards. There are many outlaw mages as well.

The Winderhold college though is a place where magic is practiced freely. It has nothing to be jealous of other mage college establishments in other parts of Tamriel- on the contrary. It is a place where people can go to to research magic in more depth. Even schools of magic such as necromancy are freely practiced in this college. It's prominent feature are magic experiments and this fact is supported directly from the in-game npcs.

The mages of Winderhold, both teachers and apprentices, experiment on magic and making of spells. This actually is stated by the NPCs themselves, who even suggest that you are careful with your experiments and share your results with them. Also some quests involve testing new spells that even apprentices are able to make.

The lore factor, for the above reasons, is clearly spell making-friendly. Especially if you are the college Arch-mage.


"Color blobs" of Oblivion/outdated graphics/technical issues

Some people are "against" spell making because they compare the graphics of Oblivion or Morrowind to the graphics and effects of Skyrim. Even if, myself, believe that even these color blobs had more creativity to them and offered a lot more playstyle diversity than the current system, spell making in Skyrim would definitely not look as it did in previous games. Likewise spell making in Morrowind or Oblivion did not look like the spell making in Arena.

Except the fact that Bethesda's excuse was not technical difficulties and it was more of a design choice, spell effects and graphics in Skyrim are not "evolved" enough to cause problems and considerable fps hits even in mediocre machines. The modding community will prove this (hopefully), if you don't want to take my word for it.



Balance

I believe almost everyone will agree, that the notion of balance in this game is not as important as it is in a multiplayer game. From that notion, the game is already "imbalanced" - smithing, enchanting, etc. But that notion does not interest us in this topic, since this is a role-playing game From the pve perspective spell making can be a lot more "balanced" than many of the current skills in the game atm.
The only thing that it needs is a few limitations - not anything too restricting - to make it perfectly balanced and enjoyable.

-Magicka costs depending on attributes of spell - like in previous ES games.
-"Freedom" in spell making and access to effects depending on schools skill level.
-Access to "types" (which i mention below) depending on skill level and already existing spells.

These are some easily implemented limitations which do not restrict the player. There could be a lot more - the point i try to make is that making a "not-gamebreaking" spell-making system is easily achievable while even keeping existing spells unique.



Existing "unique" spells

This was Bethesda's main official excuse. And i ask you: What's unique in spamming 2-3 certain spells in each learning stage (novice, apprentice, adept etc)? Besides the fact that it is spell making which would offer unique ways of playstyle even for non-casters, existing spells could easily stay unique even with spell making in the game.

Just an example of how easily this can happen: After getting the already existing spells in the game, types, effects, and attributes (i will explain what these things are in detail below) could be unlocked.
More examples:

When learning the "Flames" novice spell:
Spray type is unlocked.
Fire effect is unlocked.

When learning the "Firebolt" apprentice spell:
Bolt type is unlocked.
Velocity attribute is unlocked.

When learning the "Fireball" adept spell:
AOE attribute is unlocked.

When learning the "Incinerate" expert spell:
Damage/Magnitute attribute is unlocked.

And so on. Keeping the existing spells unique - if that is really the problem - while allowing players access to a lot more playstyle options, even for non-caster archetypes.



More detail on attributes, types and effects, mainly for those who haven't played previous ES games and an example of how it could have worked

This is me just roughly explaining a supposed system - i am of course not telling Bethesda and its professional developers how it should have been!
Types and adjustable attributes for each type:

Bolts - adjustable AOE, damage, velocity (in a certain extend), duration
On touch - adjustable AOE, damage, duration
Rune - adjustable AOE damage, duration if being active, duration of effect
Spray - adjustable angle, damage, range
Wall - adjustable AOE, damage, duration, duration of effect
Summon - adjustable object of summoning, duration
Self-cast spells - adjustable benefit magnitude, duration
Aura spells - adjustable damage, AOE, duration, duration of effect

I'm sure i forgot a lot of things and something i posted on the fly is not flawless but these are just examples, derived from previous ES games

Now a very simple categorisation that needs to be done for the limitations i mention below:

Fortify/heal spells
Damage spells
Pure effect spells
ETC ETC

Now setting limitations so that spell making is not chaotic - but still to offer a lot of flexibility - for example: Fortify,heal spells can't be set with the Wall,Summon,Rune types. They can be set with the spray, self-cast, on touch and bolt types.
And so on....

Example spells could be paralysing runes, walls that would stay active as long as your magicka allows or as long as you want them to, "DOT" spells, combining effects and a myriad of other things, mainly restricted by your own imagination (and magicka/skill). Besides i believe that even if there were more limitations or less combinations or less options, people would still be happier than they are currently.



How spell making could work even with the current system

-Dual cast perks: Applicable only when you cast the same type of spells (as it is now approximately) - for example: 2 same effect "Bolt" type spells would only trigger impact (like it is now). Same with other schools such as illusion which - 2 same effect spells would raise the cap level and duration of the spell depending on their power (like it happens in Skyrim atm).

-About effects spell type - if you remember - there were some limitations on the previous games too. Not every effect and parameter would be applicable for any type of spell - or else it would be total chaos. For example heal would be only applicable to "Bolt", "On touch","Aura" type spells. Simple as that.

-Skill level can determine a lot of things and in many ways. However i'll leave that to your imagination and comment on how it worked for previous ES games. Each "attribute" had it's own mana cost, and depended on other attributes already present in the spell, for example AOE was a very expensive attribute and if you increased it while having a duration and a big damage factor it would lead to an astronomical spell cost. Dual-cast just accumulating the costs could work just as well with the single casts the other games had. If, in any case caused additional additional problems or complication, it could just be applicable to only 2 identical spells.



That's it (for now) and i would like to mention again that this is not a "rant" thread (in case you haven't noticed) and its purpose is to anolyze spell making a little, making some things clear to those who have not experienced it and letting Bethesda know we miss it.

Release the hounds!

No spell-making makes for more unique spells, but I don't think we were given enough more unique spells to begin with.

Edit: I like your ideas for the "unique" spell-making!

Too many people complain about becoming god-like already. Adding spell-making would only bring out more dumb people who complain that they can make a spell that destroys every NPC in the world after a single cast because they can't figure out that it was their choice to make such a high-powered spell.

However, I wouldn't mind a spell making system that uses the "Two hands, two options" approach the game has now. Put a fire spell in one hand and an ice spell in the other and cast at the same time for a "steam" spell. Kinda like how magic in Fable 3 works.

Yep when people have options, they complain because they choose to abuse them. However, when those options are taken away, they say Bethesda is taking their freedom away and making it less of RPG.

I love the thought you put into it, I do have a lot of reservations about some of the points but as the poll stated would I have wanted it and the answer is simply no. I don't object to it, it would be pleasant to have the option, I would worry about what would have been sacrificed to make it a reality.

I imagine it would not be a simple development, (I have no way of saying either way thou), and to make release time, we would have lost something else, such as less content etc. So for that reason, I'm out.

I agree with you. They could have simplified it by restricting effects-per-spell to one school.

think they could have justified taking spell-making out if they made spell-casting more dynamic, instead of re-hashing the old system onto it. Destruction got REALLY shafted this time around, but I can see so much wasted potential for it (Most involving dual-casting spell-combining shenanigans), spell "tweaking" in the Magic menu to adjust Mana cost (And by extension, spell effect), and general Spell Leveling.

Being able to cast Flames for 120 seconds doesn't do much good when I need to kill in 15.

100% destruction mana cost reduction.

...

That would have to be fixed before spellmaking could even be considered :S

Isn't there already a thread on this?

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1302463-the-loss-of-spell-making-was-a-terrible-loss-indeed/

Re-opening this thread after clean-up.

I

It is simply beyond my knowledge(i think that's the saying..) why they removed spellmaking... it was the most stupid descision EVER known to man!
Mages are so damn boring now

I think the lack of spellmaking, and its overall importance, is grossly exaggerated on these forums.

I am a magic heavy player, and a fan of spellmaking in previous installments, but I don't miss spellmaking in the least in Skyrim, and I dont think that it's inclusion would make the game significantly better (or worse) than it already is.

Im at work right now and cant really go more in depth than that at the moment, but if you'd like I can explain further when I get off my shift and get home.

I'd liek you to explain further

Spell creation allowed for more build types and strategies and outside of the box game play and representation. That loss is the single biggest loss for magic based builds and characters. Its inexcusable, but mods will fix Beth's mistakes, like always.

It will only fix it for PC...
The console players are getting a big fat turd in the face from Todd...

Which is the number one reason I got a gaming rig. Spell Creation.

The loss of spell making was devastating indeed.

Without it our mages and warriors with magical support is severely limited. We lack any chance to customize our characters and use effects that compliments our styles.

Also we should be able to choose how powerful to make spells in this game. I for one do not play every character the same. They have drastically different levels of power. I should have options for this. Yet sadly, I do not.

Spell creation has always been the backbone of spell creation in The Elder Scrolls, without it the system is just a shell of its former self where it was all about choice and options. Now it is just a lifeless foundation with bright particle effects.

I like the option to equip spells in your hands in this game it reminds me of Morrowind, now think of options we could have with duel wielded custom spells. Fury with soul trap in one hand and in the other circle of protection with a ward, that would be useful for battling necromancers.

And i would probably get a gaming rig too, if i could afford it
But it is their job to make a good game for whetever platform...

Yes, but they only care about getting the casuals money now. It's either mods or bust. I really doubt they have a spell creation DLC or anything. We probably wont see a vanilla SC until the next ES, which is sad.

instead of spell making
Scroll making makes more sense

Have both. Have scroll making require a bunch of miscellaneous items, like how the arcane enchanter works, but obviously not require a skill level. then have regular old altar spell creation.

Yeah exactly!
Spell creation would give us an even higher replay value and endless amounts of fun! Just think of the strategies and combinations people can come up with with these new effects! O_O


But lets not get to excited.. this probably will never happen again anyways..

Yes it is sad indeed. I doubt that it will appear until TES VI and that is questionable for me.

I will get a PC that can handle mods for spell creation. I want my options back.

I wish i could do the same... It is quite disappointing that people need to buy new computers just because they want their games to be good(better*) again

I dont think so. If you want more spells and have a PC wait for the MIdas Magic mod. That guy is a genius modder

:D

i want spellmaking and a wider variety of spells back. i dont know whats the point of all that reducinmg madness anyway. people like tes for complexity.