I've just been reading the fan interview for the shivering isles and noticed a question that came up in the interview relating to Sheogoraths portal. Specificlly it mentiond that after the end of the Oblivion Main Quest the barriers are re-sealed. Can anyone care to explain to how this is possibble givenm the conditions we know must be fufilled before akhotosh will re-seal them.

Namely an heir of Alesia on the throne with the dragonfires lit, (which requires the now destroyed amulet of kings). Whilst the heir is bypassable, (there got to be more than just ureil who had illigitemete children no one knows about, meaning a fair portion of the population could have the needed blood). But there's no amulet that means no dragonfires and by the extenshion the covenant remains broken which means the barriers remain unsealed.

The whol underpinning of the story of the empororers and empresses from allessia onwards and of Oblivion itself is that Akhotosh will NOT simply re-seal the barriars out of pure good will, certain conditions have to be met, (though weather this is simply a kind of contractual formality or a more litrial, only way he can do it sort of thing, isn't clarified).

By the same token the anwser in that interveiw makes sense, both a book from oblivion and martins own statments make it clear even the power of a deadrea prince cannot create any kind of stable portal to or from oblivion while the barriers are up. It dosen't matter if nothing comes through or if it's an invitation or what, it's a portal to oblivion and cannot exist form more than a few minuts with the bariers up. On top of that there are plenty of accounts of deadra Lords being summouned to the mortal planes, (albiet breifely), during times when the barriers have been sealed, and likewise after the end of the shivering quest the player, (now a deadric prince) can still re-enter mundus, how does that work, (i think any being who counts as a deadric prince for the purposuse of using a princes powers and for being able to harm another deadric prince would count for the barriers, wouldn't you, even if they did start out mortal).

All I see is one great gaping plot hole covering another smaller plot hole, (namely that with the barriers down Dagon could come back any time he wanted once he's come back from the beyond).

But i figured i'd ask in case theirs actually a sensible reason lying around in thepost MQ dialouge, (i've never actuaklly beaten it yet, just read the spoilers), or somwhere equaly obscure.

I think the main thing about the dragonfires and the barrier formed by Martin's sacrifice is that they prevent Daedra from entering Nirn through portals and remaining there indefinitely. However, they do not prevent mortals from going through portals to Daedric Realms. Nor do they prevent mortals from summoning daedra for a limited period of time with spells. If you note, no Daedra come out of the Door On Niben Bay that Sheogorath made. Only mortals who entered it from Nirn come back out.

And as i pointed out allready the barrier prevent deadrea coming through like they do in the main quest by preventing ANY KIND OF PERMANANT PORTAL. If a permanant portal exists then deadra cabn come through. The whole point i'm making there is that regardless of it';s nature, if that portal exists then the Barrier cannot co-exist at the same time, where explicitly told that by 2 seperate sources.

That also still dosen't explain HOW there's any kind of barriar at all. the covenant is broken Akhotosh will not place a barrier while that remains so, nor will any of the other 9, and no one else, (except maybe one of the other deadra princes), has the power to create it. Martin's sacrafice is MEANINGLESS to weather the barriers are restored or not, where told repeatedly that that is solely dependent on the presence of an alessian heir with the amulet on the throne who has lit the dragonfires. With martins destruction of the amulet (however well intentioned, and however necessery it was in the short term) the barriers cannont be restored unless Akhotosh makes a new covenant and a new Amulet, (though how is difficult to see since the base for the Originol is as far as we know unique), with somone else. Without the covenant the barriers will stay down.

At the end of the MQ as it stands currently there is no way the barriers should be restored because no one has done anything that WOULD restore them.

Okay, to clarify, the Oblivion gates were sealed due to the destruction of Mehrunes Dagon. Since he was the one keeping the portals open(Sigil stones being only an extension of his power). It is by NO MEANS a permanant fix, its just a temporary prevention of an army coming through. The next game SHOULD invove a permanant repairation of the barrier.

And Carl, you do not gain the powers of a Daedric Prince when you take shoegorath's place in the shivering isles. People merely belive you are the madgod while you are in the isles. Notice that the other daedric princes dont care who you are when they give you their questes. You are only wearing his title, not actually becoming a Daedric Prince.

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Sorry to double quote you but i feel there's 2 points that need adressing here.

First the above. In this case fair enough, the question as posed and the anwser seemed to imply it WAS a permanant fix (As do the events of the book Infernal City, based on the spoilers for it). Which was what had me very confused in the extreme.



I would point out that after you become the new sheogorath you gain all of his powers in effect, (or at least all those that can be resonmably represented in game). You also during the fight with Jygallag have the power to hurt him, somthing where told only a divine being, or divinly empowered being can do, (as per the end of the MQ). Even if he/she isn't a full deadric prince in the strictist sense of the word, they are very much a lot more than a mere mortal now as well, and at least partly deadric in some way. Even if not fully so.


p.s, your correct this is in the wrong forum, if a kindly mod could please move it i'd be grateful. I was very tiered when i wrote this, (hence the slightly ranty tone i in hindsight used). Hopefully i'll learn my lesson this tinme and not post at my bed time + several hours :snoring:.

Okay, to clarify, Daedric Princes (aka, Mehrunes Dagon), are inmortal and cannot be destroyed, but only banished into their realm of Oblivion.



Maybe they don't care because the expansion didn't included a modification of ALL the daedric quests? Anyway, you're making a false affirmation... (said by him in the end of the MQ).

BTW, it'd be nice to put spoiler tags in your comments, you know

Umm to go back a few points, didn't shegorath explain how the portal existed, or maybe it was hassilk. I believe that it was explained as the gate was there as an invitation as opposed to an attack on the realm. (also as stated before no deadra where using the portal)

This is the lore forum. Spoiler tags only get in the way of your argument. That, and we assume you've played the appropriate game to the topic.
Haskill says something along the lines of "It is an invitation. It poses no threat to your realm, no compact has been violated." The longer explanation of that is that it is http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/doors_oblivion.shtml Both ways, Daedra coming here or Mortals going there. Daedra are more or less forbidden from crossing while mortals lack the amount of power to go through on a whim. Enter a loophole: a Daedric Prince creates an entrance that only mortals are allowed to cross (there is also some debate about whether or not you have to be even just a little bit insane before you can indeed cross).

And, yes, this issue is rather soft, as in it isn't meant to be examined too much or else it does look like a plot band-aid.

To add, this "contract" the princes are in and that Haskill seems to refer too is probably the one Sotha Sil made in the 1st era.


Back then, if I am correct (someone correct me if I am wrong) daedra had an easier time, more or less, of being able to cross the different planes. If I remember correctly, Sanguine used to hang out in White Tower. Any who, Sotha Sil made a pact with the princes to not enter or communicate, except through certain intermediaries. What we saw in SI was a bit of a loophole, as MD said. The contract was held in that daedra cannot enter or exit the gate. But what the contract most likely failed to cover was the intermediary of how mortals can travel between planes. Because of that, the portal to SI appeared and is still kosher to the contract. If you ask "Then why does Mehrunes Dagon keep trying to come in and destroy everything?" Well, my only answer is that he's not faithful to the pact, and likes to break it as much as he can in order to destroy the world.

Sotha Sil's pact doesn't really cover the enforcement of the pact by Divine intervention. After all, he couldn't speak for Akatosh (that we know of).

And it's generally accepted that Sil's pact only covered the chaotic times of the transition, meaning that it has expired. But then again, who knows what he offered in return...

Knew I was off by something. Anywho, he may have offered himself . Half now, rest later. Only thing is, we're not sure if he's paying up the later portion.

It's possible that the portal only worked for mortals.

Haskill said that it did only work for mortals, or at least heavily hinted. Only they can freely enter and exit. Daedra cannot use it in anyway.

Three rules and some exceptions.

• Mortals can pass the barrier, see Doors to Oblivion.
  
• The Barrier keeps Daedra out.
  
  • Unless barrier is not sufficiently strong. For example the end of the Oblivion crisis.
    
  • Unless Daedra are sumoned. For example temporary summons or long term summons of small Daedra or until 2920 the Princes.
    
  • Unless barrier is pierced. For example Daedric gates, which might be used in long term summons.
    
  • Unless extreme manifestation of a Daedric sphere occurs in Nirn. For example see the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga
    
  • Unless it can be avoided by secret means. For example Azura.
  
  
• Lorkhan can't pass the Barrier without any known exception.

Not implied, but mentioned for clarity.

• Innert materials are not Daedra and can enter.
  
• Enchanted items are not Daedra and can enter.
  
• Voices are not Daedra and can enter.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Sotha Sil's pact only cover that the Daedric Princes not responding to the summonings of normal mortals:

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/2920.shtml

In regard of the portal proweler has explained most I think.

But what happens to the player after the SI MQ is still not quite clear. How much does the daedric power you get count?
You aren't a real daedra, but you have been given the status of Sheogorath. But you don't have the complete power over your plane(but that could be due to engine/gameplay restrictions). So what is the player actually?

You are correct, it is a plot point in 2920.




That has always been up to you.

You're the Tree's new face of madness. Perhaps in time the realm will shift to fit you, or perhaps you will shift to fit the realm. Whatever the case, your connection to the Tree seems to be how you have any power over the Realm.

Actually where told that all deadra, (and presumebly even Deadric Princes are subject to this, i can't remeber weather there's an explicit statment on the matter though), when killed will be banished to a sort of ether realm out beyond even oblivion where they must return from in "spirit" form before they can go back to their normal buisness.

Regarding the Sheogorath's portal my only point was that if the barriers where back up that portal is impossibble. The nature of it is irrelevent to weather it';s possibble or not.

@Prowler: I suspect your simply representing your data in a manner i find confusing but several of your statmebnts don't track with various Oblivion sources.

To go through it as a rough list thing:

A) The Barrier is just what it says. Nothing can get through without expenditure of power on one side or the other. Deadra for some reason are easier than Humans.

B) Any kind of deadric summoning is excepinolly difficult even with large amounts of power, and permanantly binding a deadra to this plane requires still more and a great many complex rituals. Why syuch power is needed to keep them here permanantly seems top vary with the authour. Some state the deadrea need a supply of magic to live here, other say they need a prison of magic to stop them fleeing back to oblivion and some seem to imply the barrier itself constantly trys to pull them back. It's never really clarified.

C) Permanant stable portals bewteen mundas and Oblivion are impossibble. As are long term ones. One of Oblivions books describes how to create a short term one, (it bassiclly involves crafting a sigil stone on both sides and the deadric prince pouring a lot of his/her power into it). However whilst the resultant portal allows free passage from Mundas to Oblivion and back again, (and it's the only known way according to the book), it will last just minutes before the sigil stone burns out and the portal collapses. When the barriers came down not only as Dagon able to create permanant portals, but equally he required far less preperations, (hours instead of weeks) and no rituals on the Mundas side.

D) Since the Barriers where put up no deadrea or deadric prince can pass freely between mundas and Oblivion. They can come here if summoned just like abny other deadra, as Dagon does at the end of the first age, and as various other deadra are stated to have done throughout history. But they can't just wll themselves here. Thats one of the major points of the barrier. Martin Also backs this up stating that Dagons apperance is evidance the barriers have failed completly, implying that he cannot normally appear at will on mundas while they remain even partially up.

E) in 2920 some of the deadric princes agreed to furthar restrictions. This bit has never been clear to me as they didn't agree to much if anything that i saw that they whern't allready prohibited from doing. As somone else has pointed out, Akhotosh and Sotha Sil are sepreate entities so there's nothing binding about it and it can't remove any of Akhotosh's restrictions.

F) Whilst we get a number of cases where the act of sumoning a deadra Lord is not explicitly stated, (meaning they might not have been summoned, but then again they might have been) the only Deadra Lord ever explicitly stated to appear without a prior summoning ritual in the post alessia eras is Azura. And she just seems to break rules left right and centre really. The problem of course is she is the most stufdied of the deadric princes and was written in detail well before oblivion when the barriers thing just wn't pat of cannon. It's a case of writers error, but for an in-universe explanation i'm stumped.

I think that covers the siuation as it's laid out in oblivion, (which itself seem to differ a littile from past interations where the difficulty of interactions was majorly toned down).

p.s. why did you mention Loken? Loken had been dead and bueriued for an age or more by the time the barrier went up, so weather it keeps him out or not dosen't really matter, there's nothing left of him to keep out by this point.

Regarding the Sheogorath's portal my only point was that if the barriers where back up that portal is impossibble. The nature of it is irrelevent to weather it';s possibble or not.
Not really. Backdoors are always found. Its a familiar process to any fan of a fiction which is going through some creative limbo. Point being, the gate was an invitation, not a breach of contract. Sorry, but Martin only stoped invasions. I know, I want oblivion to go away too.

I can already imagine the Deadra gods luring mortals into their realm to bribe them with power, gold or w/e to act in Nirn ^^

"Your royal majesty, Titus Mede: you are hereby cordially invited through the massive, flaming portal which has appeared outside the Imperial City. This is in NO way a portal to the Deadlands. Nope. Not at all. This portal leads to a happy place, with many puppies, kittens and rainbows. Please come alone, and unarmed. Yours truly, Leaping Roonie."

It seems Jyggalag has been doing this since before he became Sheogorath. And he's been doing it ever since.

If you're referring to Dyuus, I'd argue that he's more on the same level as Haskill. After all, Dyuus was Jyggalag's chamberlain.

True, but they were raised to that level by Jyggalag/Sheogorath.