IMO Oblivion had better exploration than Morrowind, and Skyrim will probably have even better exploration than Oblivion.
I feel little to no incentive to explore in Morrowind for a few reasons:
1) Every section of Morrowind is way too small and the zones change too suddenly to be realistic (ie: you go over a hill and suddenly its a totally different zone with no transition from the old one)
2) It's very hard to find your way around on foot because every part of every zone looks pretty much exactly the same, it necessitates the use of Levitate so you can fly into the air and navigate better, but this makes Levitate feel like more of a crutch than a cool spell
3) I can't add the vast majority of locations in-game to my map
4) The fast travel systems make me feel like exploration is barely necessary, considering my point #3 which means I can't easily go to places I've already been, so the most efficient way to get around is to use a fast travel network and then just beeline towards my objective which i dislike
5) Half of the time I'm exploring I run into named NPCs who try to attack me and I don't know if I'm supposed to kill them or keep them alive for later quests, I feel like if I want to explore i need to keep a Morrowind wiki open so I can make sure I'm not killed any important NPCs who randomly decided to aggro me for whatever reason

With Oblivion it is much more enjoyable for me to get lost in Cyrodiil, because the fast travel system and compass/maps are very useful tools for my exploring. I like to wander around areas I haven't been yet and add all the points of interest to my map, and I hunt them out with the compass so I need both of these features to return (like they did in Fallout 3). Of course I'm taking my time about my exploration and stopping to smell all the roses (and collect every last alchemy ingredient), but my point is that i use the compass as a tool to guide me while I do this. So, overall, I feel Oblivion is more fun to adventure in. Also please understand that I come at this from the perspective of an Oblivion veteran who has recently started playing Morrowind, so I have a different pair of "nostalgia goggles" than most people here. But honesty I think a lot of people confuse "easy to get lost/difficult to navigate" for "better exploration", the sorts of requests i see here would just make Skyrim more tedious to play.

Rofl what...im still not sure youve read any of my posts as you dont really have a reply that has any kind of significance to anything ive said....

My point has absolutely nothing to do with the number of dungeons OR radiant story, what on earth are you talking about...ive been explaining my reasoning as to why i think the sense of exploration and immersion is being left behind....try reading them again sense you still dont see what im talking about. Maybe you dont understand but my edit of your quote was just a joke but at the same time adding to my thoughts on the exploration/immersion topic....

Also how do you come about thinking the number of dungeons has anything to do with the exploration we've been talking about....read other posts in the thread so you have the context for my quote before you make assumptions.

rofl WHAT...if you felt that way about the fast travel in morrowind then in oblivion you must have barely played the game. Youre saying morrowind having a few silt striders and boats to connect the cities was worse than oblivion being able to just click and teleport to a place.....not sure if this whole post was a joke or not. im possibly missing the sarcasm since this is the internet.

No I'm being serious I just have a different perspective on it than most people here. In Morrowind if I want to go anywhere, I have to use the fast travel networks to get asclose as possible and then try to find my desination from there, it's not very intuitive. In Oblivion if I want to go somewhere, I can fast travel to the closest place I've already been to on my map, which is most cases is closer than the Morrowind fast travel npcs will take me, so I can get to where i need to go faster. It's like the game has rewarded me for exploring by giving me the ability to quickly go back there and continue my adventure. The argument people make for Morrowind's system is that it forces you to spend more time in the wilderness so that = exploration, but what if I had my fill of exploring and just want to get on with my quest? Oblivion facilitates that better than Morrowind does.

Like i said I really enjoy exploring and I did a ton of it in Oblivion, and I did it because the incentive is there: I am rewarded with a useful map filled with points of interest and the ability to quickly return to anywhere I've already been, and the game helps me explore by giving me a useful compass fhat can nudge me in the direction of something worth seeing (if I decide I want to go check it out, I don't have any problem ignoring the compass when I need to, unlike some people)

That was the whole point of playing a sneaky, high-perception character! It allowed sniping, yes, but also the setting of traps, etc. Why would you want to force all characters to jump in, guns blazing? That would be boring. Fallouts always allowed for different gameplay styles - it was the signature strength of the series.

And BTW, sneaky character could use some kind of advance warning in Skyrim, too. Realistically (yea, I know), an experienced, attentive adventurer would notice tracks, be warned by sounds, etc. before running into an enemy. Since tracking isn't in, Detect Life could work, maybe, though it would depend on range of the spell, mana cost, mana regen rate, etc. Or maybe all enemies should make sounds that an attentive player would hear before coming into their aggro range - that worked very well in the Gothics. Or maybe the same kind of detection as in F3 should be one of the stealth perks.

Fast Travel should not even be an argument here. Fast Travel is an optional feature - you don't like it (which I do not), don't use it. (Although I would use it if it were more like Morrowind's Silt-Striders---City/Town Connections only)


The issue here is parts of the game that are not optional. There is no alternative in Oblivion than to use the compass icons to find quest objectives because without them the quest details are so vague that you do not know where to start looking. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the game one way, but do not factor out that there are many people who enjoy it the other way.

Are you playing on PC? If so, someone will make a mod to remove all this (if it's even in; see Clairvoyance spell).

Youre contradicting yourself....you said you like exploring...so you dislike fast travel....this quote of yours is basically you saying how lazy you are(teleporting magically around in oblivion is easier than other means of travel)......if you dont want to fast travel and you want to explore why dont you just i dont knowwww.......walk?!

you say "but what if I had my fill of exploring and just want to get on with my quest? Oblivion facilitates that better than Morrowind does."

Oblivion caters to the lazy in that aspect....again all im hearing in your posts has nothing to do with exploration and everything to do with you being lazy not wanting to walk a bit further than you have to.

edit: your post doesnt really have anything to do with exploring in general. in fact you say you like oblivion because you often dont want to explore and you just want to get on with the quest

if you dont enjoy the exploration why comment

From what I understood by the E3 video's the Clairvoyance spell was something to lead you out of a dungeon--- But I really hope you are right.


Modding Icons out would be easy.
Modding Quest Dialog with the feel of a TES game would not.

honestly? the second. its shorter. life doesnt last forever, i want the same experience in a shorter amount of time. i dont get ANY extra satisfaction from finding things myself.

This is sarcasm? But i guess this is why they included all the things like fast travel and got rid of the need to actually talk to people in the game to find out how to get around etc...This isnt mario, its an rpg.

I often enjoyed getting lost and finding new and unexpected locations in MW... but sometimes I just wanted to finally complete a quest and it pissed me off that the directions were too vague/erroneous or a door was too easily missed during an ash-storm. OTOH, I'd prefer something like Clairvoyance spell that I can cast if I want to cut to the chase to a compass that stays on all the time.

Nor did I enjoy the repetitive running back and forth over the already explored regions. Being sometimes able to go part way via silt strider didn't completely alleviate the tediousness either. So, I really have no problem with quick-travel, particularly since it is a venerable feature of TES that existed in Daggerfall. Yes, it would be more interesting if quick travel could be randomly interrupted by enemies or if there were time-critical quests to take into account, but whatever - even as is, it is not the devil.

Exploration would be made better if they added in features that we know we wont have, climbing, levitation etc. And immersion... I hate that word.

Agreed....but most of the people in this thread arguing FOR the quest markers and things that take away the need of the player to do anything that can be construed as work like asking around for info....their arguments are that they dont enjoy exploring and want to get from point A to point B as fast and with as little work as possible.

examples

Thats like saying i dont like using airplanes because they dont land infront of my house and i have to actually drive to the airport.

another example


another




Personally i would rather have to actually go through town talking to random people hoping they can give me some direction to where i need to go rather than just accept the quest...and then have a quest marker appear on my map exactly where i need to go.

Seems like theyre trying to cater to the current MMO crowd.

I thoght Oblivion was pretty immersive. I once spent 6 hours straight playing it, thinking it was only like 2.

I find myself thinking of an experience I had recently in F:NV.

I was cruising along the Wasteland. I wasn't exploring. I knew where I was and where I was going. Anyways, I'm passing close by a shack out there when suddenly my compass pops up. Now, I use the iHUD mod, which keeps it hidden unless needed. So the appearance of the compass told not only was there an enemy near by, but they also already had me in their sights. So I quickly spin around, looking for where this enemy was and quickly found a hacked securatron MKII (from MoMod) with it's arms already pulled in and it's missiles ready to fire. Another mod I have makes explosives a lot more powerful, such that I'm lucky to survive one hit and almost never two. So this was really an "Oh, crap!" moment. I make a b-line for another side of the shack, sprinting as fast as I can. The missiles went flying and I pulled myself up against the wall limping with two crippled limbs and only a few bars of life. Fortunately, I had a big gun in hand, so when it rounded the corner to finish me off, I was able to take it out first.

That kind of experience never happened before I modded it. I often knew where the enemy was before I did. And I noticed in Skyrim, when he's fighting the wolves, enemy locations will again be appearing on the compass. That disappoints me.

yes it would; what modders would do is at the end of each piece of dialog is put notes in an extra directional journal for directions.

I said I like both exploration and fast travel. But I also like having the option to choose when I can spend my time exploring, and when I want to quickly return to an already visited place to get moving along with a quest. I think it's important that i always have the option of trekking there on foot too, that deepens my immersion knowing its there, but that doesn't mean I want to have to trudge through the same areas over and over and over, over the course of a really long play-through. This is why I liked the system in Oblivion and Fallout 3, it made it possible for me to explore when I wanted to explore, and when I wanted to do something that's more specific (like questing or killing stuff) I can get straight to that too. With the carriage system they've implemented in Skyrim it's going to be possible to have it every way we want it anyways so I think this is the appropriate natural evolution of the system.

Wouldn't have TES appeal I'm afraid. Although there are many very talented Modder's out there it just wouldn't have the same feel.

I think you're underestimating the modders. There are very definitely people out there who can write TES-style so well you can't tell what's them and what's vanilla.

but if there arnt any red markers i am forced to play a stealth class because i piss myself even if its just a wolf attacking me from behind >.< i cant stand being scared and i get scared too easily >.<

ahahahah awesome. I find it more fun to play a stealth class when there are no radar markers on NPC's.

I think what the compass detects should be optional, allowing players to customize the game according to their style of play.

100% yes. Lets hope they include a detailed journal to compensate for those who wish to turn icons/radar off the compass.

Yes, yes he is. And he's right. In Oblivion, in order to do a quest, you have to still have to have been to the location before you can fast-travel to it (Thus blowing the main argument against Oblivion's fast-travel option up). If you don't stick to the silt-strider/boat hubs, you have to waste more time walking to and from your objective point. There is almost no incentive to go exploring beyond what's required of the quests, because what's out there isn't worth the wasted time to walk and get out there. In Oblivion, you can take note of interesting places to r-visit later (Yay map-markers!).

Also, when you explore in Morrowind, your exploration progress is reset to 0 (OR LESS!) once you return to town: Your map is about as empty as it was before you left town, so you have no proof of where you've been or where things are, and if you want to explore more later, you spend at least half that time backtracking to reach new areas instead of actually exploring. You're even less inclined to explore further in places you've already been, because most of it is backtracking.

In Oblivion, you can go exploring, find map markers(so you know where you've been, and where things are). When you feel done exploring, town is just a click away, so you have more time to explore (instead of having to reserve "Return time"). And, when morning comes/all damage is healed/your pack is lightened, you can resume exploring from where you left off. In all, more time exploring, less time backtracking.

Personally, I prefer World of Warcraft's new quest marker than Oblivion's pin-point accurate marker, but don't like the complete lack of a quest marker.

Oblivion rewards and encourages exploration, by giving rewards along the way, and by giving benefits further down the road.

Morrowind punished exploration by making it tedious, annoying by stuffing it with Cliff Racers, meaningless, and screwing things up further down the road (Breaking quests and making more gametime wasted on backtracking the more you explore)