I don't understand this, "not knowing what's around the corner" thing.

You know it without those markers, because you can see it! You didn't know in Morrowind because of the impossibly large fog, but with mods, you can easily spot most of the landmarks from afar.
In Fallout 3, you could see most points of interest before it shows up on the compass! Same with enemies, if you don't have big perception.

1. You are walking up a hill, upon reaching the top you look down in the valley and see an elven ruin.
2. You are walking up a hill, your compass tells you that you are about to see an elven ruin. You get to the top, and lo, down in the valley is an elven ruin.

Not a major thing by any means. But if I could choose I would choose the first option.

You modding out the fog in Morrowind pretty much shows that we want different things out of TES games.

Um, the quest marker (in the examples you dismissed as trolling) wouldn't tell you that the "wolves & other dungeon" are coming.

Lets remember to keep the three things (quest marker, points of interest, and enemy alerts) separate - they aren't all the same thing, and they don't all do the same thing.





I guess it all depends on how you define "immersion" and "exploration". I know that I did (and still do) huge amounts of exploring in Oblivion and Fallout 3. The quest markers don't stop me from exploring, and the points of interest (as I mentioned) increase the exploring - because that hint that there's another interesting thing off to the North entices you to keep wandering around and seeing stuff.

As for "immersion"..... I've seen so many things claimed about what it is, what makes it happen, what makes it not happen - I honestly have no idea at this point what any particular person means when they say it. I know that, in general, it's a buzzword used by people to complain about features they don't like, or features they wish were included. None of which usually mean anything to me.

So I guess I don't "do" immersion. Whatever it is. Harder to define than "RPG" these days. :shrug:

And that's a fair point Kiralyn2000. I am sure many people are with you when you say you like the hints that the game gives you when you are close to a dungeon. Personally I like to discover things by myself, with no aid from the game. It's just two different types of exploration that suit different people. Which is why I think a toggle option would be the best thing to do in this situation. It's like fast travel, some people hate it, some people love it, that's why that is optional.

Well, based on the fact that the OP seems to be only referring to enemy markers on the compass, then there is no reason to talk about quest markers or locations here.

I find that extremely silly since there were no "enemy markers" in Oblivion. Apparently based on the Perception attribute in FO3, that occurred in THAT game. That makes entirely no sense for a TES game.

While I agree with the OP that there shouldn't be a marker telling you there are enemies in a certain direction, I'm not remotely worried about it. All you should get is the combat music when something goes aggro nearby, and maybe a marker on the compass like hlvr described, once you're in combat already. Why would they give us a "perception" sense in Skyrim?

Furthermore, I will say that it is my own opinion as well that the location and quest marking should be done in a much more subtle and realistic manner. But then that's the general attitude of everyone on this forum, so I see no discussion points there. So unless someone actually wants to petition Bethesda to change the game to what we all want, then we aren't really getting anywhere with this.

Immersion and exploration went out the window in Oblivion when they made quest markers and fast travel. /thread honestly. Because that's the truth.

Just put your perception down to 0
Problem solved.

As for the question, I prefer the quest marker.
I don't know how many times I rage quit morrowind because I couldn't find anything.

I agree completely with the op, all of these are taking quite a bit away for the entire exploration and discovery aspect of the game

a ) quest markers
b ) clairvoyance(this one is much more optional so i dont have much of a problem with it)
c ) MAP new 3D incredibly detailed scale model map(this one could possibly exponentially ruin the exporation depending on how detailed it really is and be the worst offender of all)
[the map sort of relates to all of the exploration in general]

When i dont know where to go i want to have to ask around town in hopes that someone might give me some clues as to the general area i need to be looking in(this would be marked on my vague paper map.

i HATE the idea of quest markers telling me exactly where to go. That was one of the things i loved the most about morrowind.

Quests like the finding the cavern of the incarnate where you got
the eye of the needle lies in the teeth of the wind
the mouth of the cave lies in the skin of the pearl
the dream is the door and the star is the key

And you were forced to ask around to find out what it was. The most specific you ended up getting was "Two rock spires mark the entrance to the valley of the winid".....Then you had to set out and find it yourself.

It just makes finding things yourself that much more rewarding when you dont have your hand held the whole way. This isnt WoW.

Some argue the markers dont take away from the exploration....you can CHOOSE not to look at them....but seriously...its always going to be there almost nagging you and pushing you along the questline.

HOPEFULLY these markers and the like will dissapear when we raise the difficulty slider

edit: just read


Agree with this 100% 10x over...i definitely wont be using fast travel at all and hopefully increasing the difficulty slider takes away the markers/possibly fast travel/similar crap

When have they ever shown enemies on the compass in an elder scrolls game?

Fallout 3 actually had a bunch of each - there were a good number of "locations" you could enter, that didn't show up as Points Of Interest - most of them were small things, like sewer lairs, or small stores, or bomb shelters. Of course, given all the wreckage and other urban details, it was nearly impossible to tell the difference between a manhole you could enter and the dozens of non-enterable ones. You had to keep switching to the "local" map view to see if there were any doorway icons nearby.

Which means I probably walked past any number of them and never saw them, because constantly switching to your map every few dozens yards wasn't really fun or practical. :shrug:




It's funny how much exploration I've done in Oblivion. And Fallout 3. With quest markers and fast travel. (In fact, Fast Travel lets me explore more - since I'm not wasting 20 minutes running back and forth to town over ground I've already explored, I can use my game time to explore new places. It's neat how that works.)

Oh, wait.
So, you actually explored a generic brand western RPG landscape with horrid landscaping and literally copy/paste tree/bush palettes whilst looking at generic copy/paste dungeons to explore made by the same person (which a thing more obvious doesn't exist)?
Oh, cool. Sounds like a blast. :goodjob:

Ah, so you're not actually talking about "exploration", you're actually on some other agenda. (given forum trends, presumably some sort of "where's my Morrowind-esque alien landscape" thing)

... and that's your opinion. Call it generic, horrid or whatever you want. Many people (and I fall under this category) liked it. I don't know, it was European-style, I don't call that generic. I'm sure that a person from, let's say, Marocco would find it exotic... And there was variety in the world.

How?

Have you seen the video? Would you call that detailed map?
That is hardly any different than looking at a map. Oh no you might know where a lake is and what shape does it have. You would know that by looking at a drawn map too...


If it is marked on your map, why shouldn't it appear on the compass?

You could simulate the exact same thing by opening and closing the map screen a lot...


Uh, no... that's not what we're talking about.

With quest markers you already KNOW where you have to go, especially if it was already showed on the map.
And if you don't want to do the quest and you just want to walk around, DON'T FOLLOW IT! It's really like the same in Morrowind. There's an unfinished quest in my journal, I MUST COMPLETE IT!

As for the PoI markers, they actually help. "Oh look, there's a ruin nearby, let's explore it."

I guess i just cant see where youre coming from....id quote my post i just made one page back becauase it could be directed right to you.

If you were exploring why would you be running back and forth to town when you could simply....take a different route you hadnt been on yet, as opposed to "running back and forth." just make a detour through unexplored territory to where you want to go....or maybe random places on your map you wanted to get to and since youd been spoiled with fast travel you just couldnt be bothered to go there yourself?

And you cant honestly say quest markers dont effect the exploration at all....even if you choose to ignore them they will be there in the back of your mind telling you exactly where to go.

Again, i hope all this dissapears when we raise the difficulty slider. Or at least give us a togglable option.

No, I'm talking about just that. Exploration.

Exploration is:
A: Having a NEED (a desire, based off of curiosity of what you've already SEEN) to explore
B: A reward FOR exploring.

Oblivion had neither of these things, Morrowind did. Unique landscapes. The lack of fast travel which further gave you the "incentive" to explore. Unique places in the game world. Azura's Coast, for example. Please give me an example in Oblivion that has unique places like this?

Yes, Morrowinds dungeons were pretty much copy/paste. But so were Oblivions. Once you get OUT there, and realize that uh, pretty much everything is exactly the same, the only reason you would explore in Oblivion is if YOU were on some sort of agenda, and it had nothing to do with the thrills of exploration. But at least in Morrowind, there were at least things to see besides *insert name of generic western RPG landscape here*.

HOPEFULLY they provide an option to turn quest markers off

Todd: 150+ dungeons!

Fan response: "Exploration and Immersion: Where did it go?"

:facepalm:

As long as you have the option. I'm lucky enough to have a PC, but I still feel for the console users. Hope you guys get what you want HUD wise :]

Fixed for accuracy.

Intent and implementation. Wouldn't it have been better if increased perception allowed you to hear or see a greater distance instead of a radar like red dot?

(disclaimer. Now I dont mean bad by anyone and I dont hate anyone really much but for this once and in this one place I must get it off my chest that I am really, really, not a fan of Todd Howard in any way and personally wish he had nothing to do with elder scrolls whatsoever.)
Disclaimer: personal opinion

I doubt they will be taken out all together but maybe detection of enemies and quest markers are instead a part of the perk system, which suits me because i just won't pick them as perks.

I would prefer to not know exactly where I am going and instead make a few mistakes and discover things because of it. There is no sense of acheivement with markers, the computer has just basically told you where to and how to do it. May as well not bother playing if you don't like to at least have a challenge imo

I don't think anyone has said that there is no exploration. I believe the issue here is that exploration has been, for lack of a better word, ruined. Sure you can literally explore places, but the fact that you cannot stumble upon landmarks and locations and most exploration is done by an icon that gives you a fairly precise idea of exactly what you are about to see. The strong difference of opinions has everything to do with what people look for in a TES games. You have people who played and enjoyed Morrowind without, or limited, usage of strategy guides or website walk-through's. On the other hand you have people who are playing an open world game but still want the option to play in a very linear and straight-forward way - these people may or may not have played Morrowind and if they did they most likely used walk-through's regularly. Some people enjoy slow paced "challenging" exploration with time consuming quests that give them a certain feel of accomplishment. Other's would rather a more fast pace, constant action, less "complicated" play that gives them the shortest periods of time between quest acquisition and combat/loot.

Neither is necessarily a bad thing.

The issue is that there are many of us who have played past TES as is. Enjoyed the games and feel as though we are losing one of the only games that give us such unique playing experience. We feel as if the current route of Oblivion, and I fear, Skyrim end up making the games feel more "linear" that in Morrowind was everything but. Bethesda catering to both groups of gamers would be optimal. This is all we ask. Although both sides may present their opinions in somewhat crude (and rude) methods, there should be no arguments against allowing both sides to be happy concurrently.