Remember, you, the player, seeing further? Isn't the same as your character having a rating for how far he can detect things at.



This also overlaps with the graphics settings on the PC version - several of the settings were for how far the view distance was for enemies / objects / grass / etc. On a computer with a weak graphics card, many of these settings will be quite low. So, having the Perception stat change how far away things appear on your screen wouldn't help, if that distance was further than your graphics card could display them.

For example - my settings were low enough that Perception 5 or 6 would put red marks on my compass that I couldn't actually see in-game. It was quite useful for sniping - I would have had no chance to play a sniper character if it weren't for the enemy alerts. (Zooming in with a scoped weapon, you could see things at a further view distance.... so, I could see a red mark on the compass - my character knows someone is there - and then I could point my scope that way and zoom in. At which point I could see the target and actually try to shoot it.)




But TES won't have the enemy marks. We don't have a perception rating, and we aren't facing off with enemies who 90%+ of the time have ranged weapons.

Idk if you read where i said possibly if it is too detailed. I say this because i havent played yet so i dont know for sure. It also depends on how wide of an area fills in on the map during travel...i see where youre coming from but i wouldnt like to be directed to points of interest by the game, id rather be told by people ive talked to ingame/ through my own exploration. I might be the minority there. I dont think i said anything about lakes i just dont want the game alerting me to points of interest nearby as im doing my own exploration. It sort of destroys the sense of finding something for yourself when you get pointed to it first.

I understand the need for the 3D i guess given the verticalness of the game so i hope that the game map becomes filled in as you explore the areas but very slowly...

[] Or possibly it could be cool to have all of the map filled in with the rough lay of the land / major cities only...then as you explore....the map becomes more detailed showing you ruins/caves/other points youve explored.


Again this depends on how detailed the map is, if its just cities/towns/lakes/large villages or structures....and not the smaller unknown then im fine with the compass pointing me to those places major places but not quests where i have to go into the wild and find some hidden cave/anything in general that isnt widely known to everyone in the country.

And personally i would just rather have the paper map.....i dont want to know every detail of the landscape ahead of time before i go there. it ruins the rewarding feeling for exploring and discovering something for yourself....youre not really finding anything new.



Again this depends on the detail of the map, if the markers end up showing pointing you to places that arent widely known to most everyone across the country id rather not have them.

Personally i would prefer to have the journal as well as being able to put my own points anywhere on the map as well as make my own marks on the map Everquest style...this would be near impossible for console users though so i never see it happening.


Agree to disagree i guess....like i said above that ruins the entire sense of discovery and exploration for me...i dont want to be pointed to them by the game

again most of this relates to the map

"And personally i would just rather have the paper map.....i dont want to know every detail of the landscape ahead of time before i go there. it ruins the rewarding feeling for exploring and discovering something for yourself....youre not really finding anything new."

@Kiralyn2000

It's nice to see that you completely skipped over my rather lengthy post (obviously) directed towards you.
I guess I can pretty much draw my own conclusions regarding what your reply to would be because of that. :goodjob:

As this thread shows, there seems to be a split as to how people feel about the compass, POI's, quest markers, whatever. The simple solution to cater to both sides, as stated before, is to give all of these features a toggle option. Problem solved.

This whole thing is, I hope, a bit of a non-issue. If it turns out to be an issue, it'll represent a dreadful failure on Beth's part.

Mirroring what Mohenjo said above, there's really no reason why the game can't be set up in a way such that everyone is satisfied. With enough landmarks and directions and clues and hints to figure locations out and find them, those who prefer exploring and finding things on their own will be able to play as they desire, AND with a detailed map and HUD compass and map markers, those who prefer being guaranteed to find things with the minimum of wasted time and effort will be able to play as they desire. It's obviously possible to satisfy both groups, so there's really no legitimate reason for not doing so.

But we can only wait and see.....

This is basically it in a nutshell...While yes the immense variety of "alien" landscapes in Morrowind were great, Todd said we wont be seeing them again...but he did say they would try to do something similar but keeping with the land of the nords.



I saw someone fixed your quote so i re re fixed it.



This is EXACTLY what im saying...imo the whole thing is ridiculous. Also a lot of it is related to the detail of the map imo, thats why im not for the new one.

I didn't reply to it, because I had no reply to it. I didn't agree with your opinion. I enjoy seeing what's on the other side of that hill in Oblivion or FO3, and I feel rewarded with what I find there.


Not much more to say - we disagree almost completely, and there's really very little room for discussion.

:shrug:

You do know that there are hundreds of other people working on the game, making decisions about it, not just Todd...

As I said in another thread, it's very very very likely that quest markers will be for exterior cells only. And it makes perfect sense that someone sending you to a location would point to its location on a map (and several NPCs in Oblivion mention just that). I do think it'd be fun if there were more "I have no idea where this is" quests, but those often end up being a bit more frustrating than fun. As for the compass, just interpret it as your character mentally keeping track of which direction is which.

As for immersion, I think it's fair to say a fair chunk of it was lost in the simplifications (arguably oversimplifications) that worked their way into Oblivion. The story was simpler, the background lore was simpler, the factions were simpler, dialogue was simple/more succinct (due to voice acting), etc. The silliness of NPCs just standing around seemingly waiting only for you ("themepark syndrome") is no different than that of Morrowind. In fact, it was definitely less so. The difference is it was much more noticeable against the more detailed canvas of Oblivion.

I don't believe that improvements, streamlining, and even FPS elements come at the cost of immersion. That's more an issue of showing rather than telling. Making the overall story complex and mysterious and not having NPCs that just spell it all out for the player. Have lots of books and other facets of lore strewn about for the player to seek out. Make lots of contradicting views in the game to instill controversy and get the player to think and decide for themselves what the truth is. Give each subzone of the game a lot of personality and its own little dramas.

As for exploration, I think that was mainly a symptom of two major points: cities enabled for fast travel from the start and little variety in dungeons. The cities part is important because they're often big destinations yet rarely very immediate ones. You eventually want to go check out X city over there, but you'll gladly let yourself get sidetracked if you see something interesting along the way. Dungeon variety had a lot to do with the single dev designing them, I'm sure. Looking at the Shivering Isles gives me hope that the team is gleefully stepping up to the plate. Ebrocca stands out as a favorite in my mind.

TL;DR - I'm hopefully the devs saw the shortcomings in Oblivion and are passionately working to correct that while keeping the good bits.

How can you say that, it's like saying Jesus shouldn't be in the bible and anyway it could be alot worse....

.....What's this breaking news Todd Howard leaves Bethesda and is replaced by Peter Molyneux...... The Day the Elder Scrolls died

I hope they don't drop detect life though. I would rather have that then enemy markers. It is also pretty useful sneaking through a dark dungeon with a bow to use detect life and night eye.

Hopefully the difficulty slider will fix this or possibly an toggleable option.

Personally, i prefer the way of having to get to know the world yourself, through asking townsfolk for directions and clues as to where to go...maybe buying rough maps ingame....would be awesome to be able to make your own maps eq style(not rly possible for consoles)....and by just exploring for yourself.

But like you say if the ways for the 2nd[those who prefer the gaurentee of being led straight to point] group you mentioned were in the game standard that would sort of ruin it at the start for the 1st group[those who want to find it on their own through asking around / exploring for themselves] so we can only hope there are options ingame to disable much of this.

I cant help but notice how similar these games are becomining to certain very successful MMO's...i wonder if its the whole "trying to appeal to a wider audience" thing.

Watching the video again, I saw nothing outside the natural landmarks, like the lakes and mountains, it doesn't show anything smaller. Even if it is, there's a big haze of clouds that cover everything. I doubt you can just look around the map on unexplored areas to find new ones... not better than with a paper map anyway...

As for stumbling upon things, it's the same as climbing up a mountain or a tower and seeing some things in the distance. If that ruins your exploration too, then I have nothing else to say...

This!!! So this!!!!

I can hardly wait to get in the gameworld, ignore the MQ and explore my ass off. In Oblivion and FO3 I ignore the quest markers, the map markers and go all over the map just following the terrain and the baddies to what is over the next hill, encounter, whatever. Just like I would if I was outside in RL. If you rely on the game to make your exploration for you, then yes, you are letting it ruin your experience if you don't want those things in your expreience. If you use the game the way it is intended, if you listen to Todd, who says it is there for you to do whatever you want with it, then you can make it whatever you like.


Re: red marks on the compass in FO3

Those are great and I missed them in Oblivion

I like those a lot and liked my perception stat in FO3, although I kept it low so could only see the ones in my fairly immediate area and didn't sneak my way through the game. I don't like being surprised, and do think, that in the real world I would hear, sense baddies that were near me and don't have that advantage in the game. The red marks make up for that.

Way to put words in my mouth. :slap:

I think that emoticon as well as :facepalm: is gonna get a real workout for a while.

Oh, and another one to the collection!

Carrots are weightless! The dragon priest lifts his robe at you! The giant ragdolls weirdly after the dragon drops him! No partying with dragons! The sword is both elven AND glass! The male player characters have pelvises that aren't fixed in place when they run! Doomstones sound funny! +There's nothing to explore despite there being 150+ handmade dungeons! The game is RUINED! :ahhh:

I really hope you guys are actually reading the posts. The explanations by those who feel that exploration and immersion are fading away are perfectly reasonable.

So when did the people of tamriel invent a radar system?

/facepalm@casualizationofgaming.


Also exploration is dead the fact that an icon will pop up on your compass means guess what...it's dead.

exploring is going out into the

UNKNOWN

and finding something, the fact that your compass is pointing at 8 different things that you havent been to yet destroys that surprise of finding something, simjple becaues before you get to it you know it's already there. But this is done to appease the "this game is to hard" crowd.

Umm if you think seeing every bit of the landscape in great detail before you even set foot there is the same as just getting the general location on paper is the same id have to disagree. It would be like
[paper map instance] *walks over random hill that isnt detailed in map...."Holy [censored] that mountain/hill/cave/rock formation/whatever looks awesome im glad i accidentally came this way"
[3D map instance] *walks over exact hill you see on 3D map.... "ah that thing i was just looking at on my map is kind of cool but since i already knew it was going to be there its not really as dramatic/enjoyable/awe inspiring as i would have liked and i dont really care about it as much"

And again, i said i dont know exactly how detailed the map will be...we havent played yet...the clouds will obviously be taken away.


If youre saying the game pointing out a dungeon/cave/ruin to you is the same as you discovering it on your own then i dont know what to say. Except that i disagree 100%.



Im not sure you even read my post :confused: maybe take another look.

Yeah except for dev time. Tons of dialogue and added text for "clue directions and hints".

Not really they would only have to say "here ill write the directions down for you" blame open journal.

I completely understand not being able to add too much more dialog to voice actors. Putting Morrowind type quest dialog into voice would be disastrous, however adding text in journal descriptions of quests or being given "notes" by the quest giver doesn't seem unreasonable.

That it does not. Still, I'm not the one entering those entries. So I guess I can't say for certain.

I did. And I saw a complaint that somehow disregarded the statement about 150 dungeons. Do you really think the Radiant Story thing is really gonna hit all 150 dungeons? Seriously?

It's like the bunch that think dragons are going to be as common as cliffracers because they're not scripted events and you could come across one at random.

Hence... inclusion in The List.

Wow stereotype much?

Get a life kid and stop ripping on people because you want to feel "special".

Take your PC, go play your game, and stop being so pathetic.

That would make sense...
... if all the icons would appear on the map right at the beginning, and compass icons wouldn't just appear when you get close to them, but always.

But they're not. They only appear when you get closer to them. Again, same thing as seeing things in the distance.