The only problem I had with Oblivion was lack of immersion that was present in Morrowind. I think this had to do with the lack of complexity of quests given and the compass/map system.

Which of these two scenario's would you rather?

You are out searching for the cave in which the quest givers daughter is trapped inside guarded by goblins. While following his instructions to get to the cave you end up veering a little off the way when a pack of wolves ambush you from out of nowhere! After you recover you notice a well traveled path heading into a valley. You decide to follow it not knowing what is around the corner. As you turn past a high point you stumble upon an an Ancient Dwarven Castle Ruins. You immediately explore this and end up getting a new sword and magical boots with a runspeed effect on them. You leave the ruins and continue searching for the cave with the trapped girl.


or.


You are given a quest from a quest giver. He tells you that his daughter is trapped by goblins in a cave. You leave his house and head out to search for the cave. You follow the compass and your map and head to the exact location of the cave. On the way there you are alerted to the presence of hostile NPC's by your compass and you charge in and slaughter a pack of wolves. After killing them you notice the compass shows the icon for dwarven ruins and you decide to go explore those first. You follow the compass and see the dwarven ruins you expect, go in and retrieve a new sword and magical boots. You leave the ruins and continue to the cave with the trapped girl.




I personally would rather not expect attacks from some creatures and I would much rather stumble upon locations rather than know they are coming. Instead of having to mod it in, having a map/compass where no creatures are shown and locations never show on compass unless you select it on the map and only on the map after you have found the location.

The main problem in achieving this is that quests would have to give you more detail in finding the location given. Instead of forcing voice actors to ramble on with directions, there could be a journal system that explains in more detail where to go. I would really like to play the game on release rather than wait for player mods in order to achieve the immersion that have been loved in the past TES games.



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I hope they don't carry over the red markers from Fallout 3, it took away from the suprise when I knew an enemy was 50 meters to the southwest.

Agreed. Knowing enemies are around a corner or over a hill is so lame. I love turning all the lights off at night, going in a dungeon and nearly jumping out of my chair when I turn a corner into a Lich eating your face.

No red markers. In all the fights in the demo, there are no markers showing enemies.

Uh turn down you perception.

That was the point of perception to be able to sense when your in danger.

Ok Modders. Since I put away the console, and just got a new gaming PC. I'll give you 2 weeks after the game comes out. Make the first scenario from OP happen:) Lets see if these mods are all that they are cracked up to be. :thumbsup:

I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw this massive herpderp.

"I completely missed the point of a game, now I'm going to whinge about it..."

Now that there's a spell which shows you a path to where your goal is, it'd be nicer if the compass was a little less exact, and just showed you the main direction you should take. Or made the compass optionable. But I still want it present, I don't wanna keep switching computers to look up a guide on where I'm supposed to go next. (My PC doesn't have internet)
But now we have both the spell and the compass, and it seems a bit like an overkill to me.

You got warning of nearby creatures in Fallout 3, not in Oblivion unless you used detect life. From that I saw in the demo we don’t have the red lines on the compass. However they might use it instead of Oblivion’s wallhack for detect life.
Note the ability to detect enemies from distance is a part of the fallout world.

Truth be told it was a nice idea, but it took away from the sense of Exploration, if you know that there are enemies over the next hill then you can simply go into sneak mode and go round them, or sit on top of the hill and blast their brains out their nose with a sniper rifle. If they had been there waiting in ambush and I could not sense them, it would have made for a more intense battle, instead of simply sneaking round an giving them all a new hole to breath out of one by one. Ok, it was entertaining to know that you were always one step ahead, but it also kinda made it too easy.

It was quite handy for avoiding Deathclaws and Giant Radscorpions though, those guys were a pain in the ass.

Sad to inform you that we got markers for enemies it seems in Skyrim. Check the part where Dovahkiin strikes at the mammoth and look at the compass before & after.

Although it seems they're only present once you attack / or is attacked, and that they're only present in close distance.
This can be shown when Dovahkiin makes the storm shout. The red spot of the enemy (dragon) is present on the compass only when the dragon is above Dovahkiin.

I would choose situation one if I could, although I should preface this by saying situation one could happen in Oblivion, assuming the gamer was not using the compass (I cover my game compass with electrical tape on the TV screen) or pulling up the map every 30 seconds.

I and others here have already said this a zillion times, but all Bethesda needs to do is allow us to turn the compass/quest marker system OFF. This would please both camps.

Narcissist much?

True. I see that now. Retract my last post!

Again, if your perception was lower you wouldnt have had that experience.
My Character in FO3 has 4 perception. I don't get much warning at all.

I think the vast majority of semi intelligent advlts would agree with the OP. Problem is the majority of people are not semi intelligent advlts. Bethesda is a business and a business needs to make as much profit as possible. If that means dumbing down a game so that it can reach a larger audience then so be it.

Thankfully I play on the PC and will wait until the mods that fix these issues are out before I play.


I guess the way Bethesda see it is that majority of console gamers want the map markers etc and PC gamers have mods to fix these issues. Seeing as the vast, vast majority of buys come from consoles I don't think bethesda care, at all. For reference I'm not saying all console gamers are morons but lets be honest, most of them aren't looking for immersion they are looking for some hack and slash for an hour after work/school.

It was right there, in Oblivion and Fallout 3. Sorry you didn't see it.


Like others have said, only reason you got red enemy markers in Fallout 3 is because your character has a Perception stat, which defines how well he/she notices things. Therefore, the game has to have your character "notice things" that you don't.

Also, the game is pretty much all about ranged combat - some kind of warning that there are enemies nearby (other than "hey, a bullet hit me in the head") is kind of handy. TES, being more melee centered, doesn't have this issue nearly as much.

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As for exploration.... I had no problem exploring in Oblivion & Fallout 3. In fact, those "points of interest" on the compass increased my exploration, because I was always deviating from my path ("follow the quest marker") to see what interesting thing was over there, oooh! and over there! oooh! and over there!

re: Quest markers - I would certainly not mind if they were toned down to "lead you to the spot marked on your world map, but not to the specific target inside a cave/ruin/etc" - the quest marker showing which way you need to walk to get to Howling Cave isn't a problem (as long as you've got knowledge of where Howling Cave is; say, from the quest NPC saying "oh, here. let me mark that on your map". )

Quest markers also aren't as much of an issue when the terrain is more windy than in Oblivion - it was a big bowl, you could pretty much walk straight to the where the marker was. Make a map full of mountain ranges, valleys, canyons, etc.... and that "straight line to the cave" isn't quite so straight anymore. Need to find your way around the obstacles after all.




Charming. :shakehead:

I agree regarding the exploration.
I never had a drama with POI's appearing on the compass.

I do think the quest marker is a little over used. Though, Sure show me where the location is but nick off once I'm there.

After reading these posts I am starting to wonder how many of these people actually played and enjoyed Morrowind.

That last part isn't even remotely true. Where's the survey you did where you found that console gamers prefer hack and slash? PC gamers and console gamers are exactly the same in that each one has different tastes in games. Get over yourself.

Agreed.

I don't use a PC because I can't be stuffed building one. Still like to get the most from the TES though.

Agreed, the common belief for PC gamers is that Console gamers are dirty, idiotic morons who like mindless violence.
The common belief for Console gamers is that PC gamers are stuck up, arrogant rich kids who are full of themselves.
Neither one is true, these people exist but are in the Minority.

I took the red markers to represent your character's other senses. In games it's impossible to use senses besides sight (sometimes sound) to experience things.

It was entirely dependent upon your "Perception" attribute which could include your character's sight, hearing, smell, etc., as well as augmentation by technology, drugs, etc.

I don't really know if it has a place in the Elder Scrolls, though, because we already have Detect Life spells.

The first scenario is better, of course.

The less "gamey" they make this sort of thing, the better. Clairvoyance replacing map markers would be a great start, and detect life acting as the Fallout 3 red marker equivalent works just as well.

the way I play is the first couple of characters I just do missions and then once i feel comfortable with the game I start exploring.