the luck thing is actually backwards. playing an assassin or a thief requires more luck than a typical warrior. the whole point of stealth characters (which are usually not heroic upstanding people) is sneaking around avoiding traps and hoping your not seen. most of the other aspects of this mod look good but there are lots of unlucky good people in this world as well as lucky bad people. just take alook at congress.

hi reallybigjohnson,

thats a good point. I will look into it, and try to implement classes to alter luck mechanics. ( but I guess this will take some time, and I would appreciate some posts regarding this)
Could you provide all the "bad" classes?

EGM could provide a switch in order for players to chose between
lawful luck mechanics and those for especially "bad characters"!

my opinion is, that Tamriel all-in-all is a lawful world with a certain aspect of morale.
thats why I wouldnt use different luck mechanics, even not for bad chars.
but if someone feels lucky by choosing, why not?

thief, rogue, assassin and sorceror are the only ones on the list that are considered bad in other games. and sorceror could be debatable but ive always thought of them as more primal versions of mages. sort of like jedi vs sith. a thief who managed to get through life without being jailed for most of it and an assassin that managed to do the same without being strung up must certainly have some serious mojo on their side.

And what would you suggest, if I may ask?

As fas as I know, Oblivion is not solvable by "bad characters", because certain NPC neglect giving important quests to you.
But I might be in disadvantage here. Could you help me a little bit and spare some knowledge? The small post above wasnt very eloquent.

you can solve oblivion as dark brotherhood listener.........thats about as evil as it gets. in fact they even let you do the knights of the nine questline if you tell them you are darkbrotherhood. personlly i use nGCD which modifies luck already and many other levelling mods already do luck so it might not even be necessary to change.

Extended Game Mechanics (version 2.11) uploading soon


Update 2.11:
- removed two settings from egm_config.ini, determining the food calculations, the handling was simplified giving you more control by setting just one value now
- Updated Sound files and added one Sound for Male/Female at Medium Thirst
- removed bug from Initialisation process, all values are updated properly now, whether its a Reload in Game or a Restart
- extended Food mechanics (read Forum for more Information)
- extended Encumbrance / Fatigue mechanics (read Forum for more Information)
- extended Faint mechanism, added a Refresh Spell, which is going to alleviate overexhausted & collapsed characters after a while


The next release is explicitly BETA!

There are two reasons:
1. the books explaining the complete mechanics intorduced by EGM are not finished and should be part of the next release.
2. a new feature went into encumbrance / fatigue mechanics.

Point 1 is clear, Point 2 needs Beta testing.

The new feature Extended Encumbrance / Fatigue is based on EGMs predecessor encumbrance / fatigue mechanics, but changes are a lot, that why it needs to be explained.

The aim of the new e/f mechanics is to give a more appropriate reflection of how Fatigue works. A whole chain of processing steps are necessary to achieve this. Here is the explanation:

1. The first step in the chain is still similair to old EGM e/f mechanics, the standard maximal fatigue return rate is determined by calculations, also Ability Based Fatigue Rates, and Feather bonuses

2. Ecumbrance level is determined, here EGM is going to choose which of 4 different encumbrance mechanics should be used. (shinji, normal, slight encumbered, overencumbred)

3. penalty through encumbrance is calculated and all accompanying bonuses through shinji or Ability Based Fatigue Rates

4. the result from steps 1 - 3 result in a new encumbrance based fatigue return rate, mainly determined by your encumbrance ratio, this is were almost similiar EGM predecessor stopped

5. The Fatigue Gauge informational value changes, it wont show only your fatigue level anymore, but your also the intensitiy of Fatigue burn (the lower the more intense).

Here is some additional information about Fatigue intensity: (pls visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_exercise )

The characters fatigue mechanisms are based on Anaerobic & Aerobic exercise, mechanisms determine your fatigue rate additionally by the current intensity,

thus a higher intensity ( Fatigue gauge emptied) will result in a higher fatigue return rate, a lower intensity ( almost full fatigue gauge ) is goin to have a normal fatigue regain rate.

What is a normal fatigue return rate?

As EGM Fatigue system handles Fatigue Return rates from 3 different sources, Food/'Thirst, Ability Based ( Magic), and Endurance generated, the normal Fatigue Return Rate
equals the Fatigue Return From Hunger/Thirst mechanics, plus all Magic Based Fatigue Bonuses or penalties. this is the normal energy supply.

Whenever your character starts to burn Fatigue, the mechanics check if any endurance generated fatigue is available. if not, thus your character is exhausted, there is no rise in fatigue return.
If Endurance generated fatigue is available, EGMs mechanics extends the calculations, integrating anaerobic & aerobic metabolism according the Fox and Haskell formula.

The Fatigue Return Rate will rise slowly according to the intensity of Fatigue is used. The maximum is reached at 80% of intensity ( 20% of Fatigue gauge), this will activate all Fatigue return possible from endurance.

Reaching a Fatigue threshold of lower than 20 % starts anaerobic metabolism, giving you additional fatigue return ( glycolysis), but only for a short duration ( will be enlarged by improving athletics skill, in between 0 - 2 min)

Reaching a Fatigue threshold of lower than 45 consumes energy from the characters glycogen supply, effectively this is influenced by Endurance and Athletics, giving additional Fatigue Return for about 30 min to 90 min.

(You' ll notice both Fatigue Thresholds, by the character panting louder.)


glycolysis and glycogen supply differ in their recharging time.
while the first is recharging very fast even at low fatigue burn intensity or periods of rest, the latter is different.
the glycogen supply is recharging very slowly, in about 12 to 24 hours. but this can be improved by eating carbohydrates continously for every 2 hours.
recharging time is going to be acclerated immensely, in about 2 hours a fully depleted glycogen supply is able to regain about 50 %, a less depleted glycogen supply recharges proportionally slower.

This mechanics require a more tactical approach to any gameplay situation, and are not considered for absolute beginners.

ok. pls report anything you encounter, and have fun!
Signing out!

Extended Game Mechanics (version 2.11)

Update 2.11: ( spring release ) BETA
- removed two settings from egm_config.ini, determining the food calculations, the handling was simplified giving you more control by setting just one value now
- Updated Sound files and added one Sound for Male/Female at Medium Thirst
- removed bug from Initialisation process, all values are updated properly now, whether its a Reload in Game or a Restart
- extended Food mechanics (read Forum for more Information)
- extended Encumbrance / Fatigue mechanics (read Forum for more Information)
- extended Faint mechanism, added a Refresh Spell, which is going to alleviate overexhausted & collapsed characters after a while


http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=30790

Interesting new things, will dl and test it out a bit. Its hard for me to test fatigue though because I use Galerion's lvling and me being a vampire using Adundae mod my fatigue is over 2000 (actually I think its closer to 19000). So i never burn it fast enough for it to matter. I like the fatigue mechanics in this mod, because it at least feels like some kind of limit though.

Extended Game Mechanics (version 2.14)

Update 2.14 - 2.12: ( spring fix release ) BETA
- update Thirst calculations in case player is caught by a FireDamage Spell, the thirst conditions werent updated in time nor properly
- updated Luck mechanism, changed all random generators to use rand with MT random generator ( look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_Twister)
- changed Luck mechanism, members of the Dark Bortherhood are likely the become lucky if they practice their vocation now
- updated Food mechanics to include Cobl carbohydrates check
- updated Food mechanics, to alter Food consumption in case of higher carbohydrate requirements
- altered exhaustion recharging time calculations and message system for exhaustion & low carbohydrate condition
- removed bug in message system, deficit of carbohydrates wasnt displayed
- altered two sound effects




Sorry for the short updates, but its really difficult to extend a mod without including some bugs..
happy weekend everyone!

EGM'S ini files and the their configuration:

Here is a short excerpt on configuring EGM through the ini files and the confiuration menu.
Lets start with EGM's first configuration file, the "egm_config.ini".

First is the features section, where you can select/deselect certain features on EGM to be used or not in-game:

; *****************************************************************************
; Feature Settings
; *****************************************************************************
; Food/Thirst
; *****************************************************************************

set egmV.bFood to 1
set egmV.bWater to 1
set egmV.bDish to 1

; *****************************************************************************
; Encumbrance
; *****************************************************************************

set egmV.bEncumb to 1

; *****************************************************************************
; Jump
; *****************************************************************************

set egmV.bJump to 1

; *****************************************************************************
; Blurrr..
; *****************************************************************************

set egmV.bBlur to 1

; *****************************************************************************
; Luck
; *****************************************************************************

set egmV.bLuck to 1

; *****************************************************************************
; Faint
; *****************************************************************************

set egmV.bFaint to 1

; *****************************************************************************
; Sound
; *****************************************************************************

set egmV.bSounds to 1

To disable a feature, just set it to 0, to enable set it to 1. Best gameplay experience is provided with all features activated, because the mechanics cooperate a lot.
Some features offer more settings in their subsection, which allows to activate certain aspects or alter them for different gameplay experience.






The "settings" section is correlated to EGM's second configuration file, "egm_GMST.ini".
Best description is, that these settings alter certain Oblivion vanilla game settings ( described in egm_GMST.ini), which werent properly set.
This settings are called Oblivion "Game Settings", therefore the abbreviation GMST, all settings are part of your vanilla Oblivion, but most likely with unbalanced values.
The "egm_GMST.ini" delivers the altered values to EGM. You can choose to use these settings or which not to, in order to provide best compatibility.

; *****************************************************************************
; Settings
; *****************************************************************************

set egmV.bSettings to 1

set egmV.bNoSettingsUseDefaults to 0 ;0

With the first switch "egmV.bSettings" you determine to use these settings or not. With the second switch you determine what values
to use for the two most important fatigue game settings, in case the first switch "egmV.bSettings" is set to 0 (== disabled).


The nextion section is called "Configuration", because it provides switches for general EGM related settings.

; *****************************************************************************
; Configuration Settings
; *****************************************************************************

set egmV.bUseOMOBS to 1
set egmV.bUseDPCA to 1

These are self explainable, use them if you want to use egm_GMST.ini for best compatibility.
Recommended for both, OMOBS and Duke Patricks Combat Archery.

set egmV.bMessages to 1 ; 1
set egmV.bStatusMessages to 3 ; 1
set egmV.bPerson to 0 ; 0

Also self explainable, this settings determine if messages show up in game (some still have to, even if this is set to 0)
, in what person they talk towards you, and where or how status message are shown per action

set egmConf.vConfigurationKey to 65 ; 65
set egmConf.vInfoKey to 184 ; 184

Two important keys, the first for the configurration menu, the second for the status messages.
The values equal to their DirectX Scancodes explained here: http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/DisableKey ( Dont put just the key in...)
The status messages determine where the Food related status messages are displayed,
if you put them onto a certain key, that show the status when pressed, or if they always show up when opening the inventory or EGM's configration menu.


set egmInit.bInitValuesfromFile to 1 ; 0

this one needs some explanation, because it is influenced by how Oblivion manages savegames.
Every savegame contains all variables or their values, of all activated mods and vanilla oblivion itself. All mods that were activated and used when you saved the game.
If you provide no ini file for configration, Oblivion will always use this values at initialisation process when reloading a saved game.
You can easily change some settings via the configuration menu, per default key F7. The altered settings will be saved with the next savegame, and still be valid when reloaded.
If you forget to save the altered values are gone, and must be set from new.

If you do not want this behaviour, your can set "egmInit.bInitValuesfromFile" to 1, and activate it.
Then each reload all variables/values are always initialised from the two EGM ini files, egm_config.ini and egm_GMST.ini. (per default every upgrade or new installation does initialize this way)
You are able to control every feature of EGM in detail, by setting them explicitly in the ini files.

set egmV.bDebug to 0 ; loads of debug messages...

is self explanatory, only use them for feedback or if you are in doubt that EGM does all what it pronounces.

PS:
The Configuration menu also offers a "reload ini values" - option.
In case you are using the first initialisation process, which loads variables and their values always from savegame (after a first initialization),
you now are able to "reset" all values to their correspondent from the ini-files.
Just dont forget to save the game after using this option, or the changes are gone with the next reload.

...

Extended Game Mechanics (version 2.15)

Update 2.15: ( spring fix release 4) BETA
- refined exhaustion calculations, therefore the fatigue consumption of the last 8 hours is implied, and changes endurance based fatigue return
- included .doc file - Extended Game Mechanics manual version 1.0
- altered jump mechanics
- altered water consumption, extended base requirements from 48 to 72 hours
- removed bug from encumbrance calculations, Ability Based Fatigue Reduction wasnt calculated properly

The size grew immensely, this is due the .doc file manual of EGM.
Im trying to reduce it.

Happy weekend all!

Hey marshmallow. I noticed in the 2.14 release that my vampire started getting carbohydrate notifications. I'll install the 2.15 beta and see if thats still the case.

ah, ok...

At first glance this mod appears to work by dynamically adjusting game settings. This approach is nice and simple, but has the nasty side effect of also affecting all other actors. So if you are heavily encumbered and can't jump high, neither can any other NPC, even though they are not encumbered. In my http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=10925 I've been very careful to make sure that all actors are affected the same as the player, even though this occasionally means I couldn't always get the effects I wanted... eg adjusting jump height can only be done by adjusting acrobatics or implementing your own havoc using setPos (which I tried but was nearly impossible to make work). For changes to fatigue burn/restore I've used modAV2 in an ability that is applied to all actors...etc. I suggest you have a look at the code for ideas, and you are free to copy it. I also have a rather rambling document on the research I did for this at http://minkirri.apana.org.au/wiki/RealisticFatigue.

LOL, I cant confirm that!

Everyone can check that, if your NPC is heavily encumbered , the fatigue turns negative because of fFatigueReturnMult, making the character collapse after awhile.
But only the character does, no NPC.

Begone! Please try trolling others, ABO,


PS:
For everyone to test.
uncheck EGM, load a clean game save, go to a city where lots of people are walking around,
open the console and set fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult to 1

setnumericgamesetting fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult 1

check it with

getgamesetting fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult

it will show you 1, and your character cant move. But all NPCs do!
Only some values are used globally, not this. Sorry ABO, if you thought that, but you should specify exactly what you meant.

My tests suggest that the combined fatigue return calculated from fFatigueReturnMult and fFatigueReturnBase is truncated at zero and never goes negative... so no-matter how negative you make these settings, it will never make a stationary actors fatigue go down, including the player. Also, the fatigue burn from running/jumping/fighting never makes fatigue go negative, so actors will never collapse from low fatigue without being hit by some fatigue attack.

The best way to check this is at the console type "tdt", then "sdt 9", then click on an actor. This will show you all the actors stats, including fatigue/fatigueMax and encumb/encumbMax. Changing game settings using setGS will immediately be reflected in the actors stats.
This is because most NPC's carry nearly nothing... try setting it to 0.1 and then watch what happens. Even then, some peasants carry only about ~3 feathers of gear and will still be able to move, but any actor carrying weapons will be pinned to the spot. Fire an arrow at them and watch them curse you in anger while they are frozen on the spot.

Can confirm here. EGM sets fFatigueReturnMult to negative, and it DOES drain the WHOLE Fatigue Return rate. I was glad to have found this one.
Furthermore, in every battle enemies still always do seem to have more fatigue, at same levels!


I set it to 1, and soldiers with full steel armor still were walking around as everyone else, this should name very little difference to 0.1, where you could watch this behaviour.

Whatever, thx aBO for your comment, but I likely wont change EGM'S calculations anymore.
Certainly, you could say its a design flaw, but watching closely not on EGMs side but the vanilla Gamebyro, if what you say is true, at least for some variables.
Terrible to imagine, all actors have the same fatigue mechanics, no matter what the do or what does affect them!! This would make Oblivion a total waste for me.

I still doubt that these mechanics are used gloabally for all actors, as i said, fFatigueReturnMult DOES turn negative, AND the negative value drains the whole fatigue return.

If anyone is willing to implement your fatigue altering caluclations, which indeed are very cycle intensive, and in most cases not necessary, because fatigue is changed only by integer numbers, and not floats, is free to do whatever they want. I won't.

Sorry... I probably wasn't clear... what I meant was the combined fFatigueReturnBase and fFatigueReturnMult effect cannot go below zero... so a large negative fFatigueReturnMult can turn off fatigue return, but it can never make it start to "burn" fatigue. However, it does effect all actors simultaneously.... a large negative fFatigueReturnMult because the player is encumbered will "turn off" fatigue return for all actors... particularly those with high endurance.
Most actors wearing full steel have high strength, so even with fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult=1.0 most of them will still be able to move. Most actors with low strength also have light armour and weapons. This actually means you can mostly get away with changing this setting without any visible side effects, because the only actor encumbered enough to be effected is the player. However, there might be some occasional funnies, like drain strength spells pinning some actors but only when the player is fatigued... but then I guess you will probably assume that the actor is also fatigued and not think much of it.
They definitely are used globally for all actors... if you change fFatigueReturnMult negative you reduce fatigue return for all actors, not just the player. In fact, because this is multiplied by endurance, you reduce fatigue return the most for actors with high endurance... a low endurance player will recover fatigue faster than a high endurance NPC.

However, like fActorStrengthEncumbranceMult, the effects of changing fFatigueReturn* on NPC's will probably not be noticed much... low fatigue only effects how hard actors hit, so there is nearly no visible indication when NPCs are getting fatigued. You will only notice that the player is getting fatigued, and if and in the heat of battle you happen to notice NPC's hits are not doing much damage, you'll just assume that he must be getting fatigued from the battle.

Changing fJumpHeightMax is also not likely to be noticed... other actors rarely jump.
Its actually not that bad. RF has no measurable impact on framerates at all... the biggest impact is from triggering the built in hitshader to simulate player fatigue. The integer change problem is handled by accumulating fractional fatigue changes in a float and only modAV2'ing fatigue at integer increments. You could also reduce the frequency of the fatigue calcuations, but RF uses an ability which evaluates every frame with no measurable impact so I don't bother. However, because I'm from a performance-paranoid embedded systems background I do include quite a few tricks to minimize the calculations per frame, using things like "change check" logic to avoid recalculating things when the values calculated from have not changed, but its unclear if this extra effort makes any difference at all... half of nearly nothing is still nearly nothing

The other thing RF includes is NPC lip-sync panting and trip/stagger effects. These mean that you do get some sort of indication when NPC's are getting fatigued... as they start to look worried, pant, and stumble around. Feel free to check this code out and use stuff from it if you want. One thing that RF doesn't include is any sort of eat/sleep support, which maybe is something worth adding. Up until now I've left that stuff to other mods, but I'm willing to collaborate with others on bundling things like http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=21424, http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=10925, and some sort of eat/sleep effects into a single unified unified "Realistic Effects" type mod. I have a good existing codebase for the fatigue and health parts, some good ideas for the sleep/eat parts, but not much spare time to do it all

What seems possible, if someone with enough freetime is availalbe, is to join the better parts, and create something like an ultimative fatigue mod which integrates the best parts.
Like a proof of concept. And look how it does. and keep praying that another company is going to deliver an appropriate RPG environnment, free of any compromises to make.
Tell me what you think, my spare time is short as well, I have to do a project work, and give lessons on statistics.

Does anyone use this? Looks like Marshmallow has put a lot of work into it and it sounds like a great all-in-one realism/survival mod. I struggle to follow the complex calculations involoved and so was wondering what to expect and how people thought it worked in game. Thanks

Hi Tofolo,

I wont find the time nor the motivation to correct the use of the Game Settings, as they arent explicitly declared as influencing ALL ingame NPCs.
Now that ABO pointed this out, I could try to verify this, but I do not have the time.

If these Game Settings do influence all NPCs, the calculations should be rewritten, to be appropriate,
BUT...there comes the point, and the reason why I choose the way i did it,
using different calculations isnt very good to implement, because it only uses integer values
( you'll see this by using mods modifying the fatigue value, and the green bar seems to "jump" more than increasing smoothly)
and it costs a lot of cycles more, meaning its cpu intensive. (something I wanted to avoid)

If someone is willing to rewritte the approriate portions of EGM, its ok, EGM uitilizes many more than other comparable mods.
But the flaw in Oblivion design regarding the Game settings does have such an impact for me, I didnt continue coding, nor playing oblivion. its too trivial for me.
If TESV is going to reveal a better environment, im glady going to translate EGM and continue development, but not for TESIV anymore.

Thanks for the reply Marshmallow

I'm disappointed so I can imagine that you feel like drop kicking Oblivion into another realm right now. I liked your approach and you have some great ideas (luck matters - genius!), so I would hate to see all this go to waste ( or have to wait for TESV) . Hopefully you find the motivation and time to achieve your goal - did someone mention collaboration?

I actually installed EGM and played for a few hours... and it all seemed to work as it should, except for my terrible luck (hovering around -10 to -12) but maybe that was the thieving and the random killing . Didn't notice any NPCs rooted to the spot etc, but I guess 'behind the scenes' they are being affected in ways you would rather they weren't.

In the meantime, do these game settings affect all of EGM or would disabling certain parts help?

Thanks again for your time and trouble.

Hi Tofolo, its all yours!

Just pick up EGM, install the CS and continue.

Honestly, in order to rewritte the appropriate section of EGM this would take probably a day. It isnt this much.
But, it wouldnt be the same.

For example the encumbrance mechanics, wouldnt be possible anymore, increasing encumbrance in a senseful way without affecting other parts.
Currently EGM modifies fActorStrenthEncumbranceMult and lowers Strength, as logical effect when you overencumber.

The fatigue settings could be modified by a special routine / quest, yes, but the key point of design was to split fatgiue into base (hunger / thirst), endurance and magic.
This wouldnt be possible anymore, in fact you would have to check/alter the fatigue rate all the time ( for every frame) as it doesnt increase by intergers, it can only be modified by integers!! this is obviously a flaw in oblivion.

The jump mechanics itself wouldnt be possible anymore, due affecting ALL NPCs, though i didnt see any ever jumping around to be honest.

My aim was definitely different.
a world where nutrition is essential and affecting all and everyone, animals and creatures become more agressively if they are hungry, and even try to attack you, if in any other case they wouldnt.
Or in case a supply caravan with all the food is highjacked by bandits continuosly, it weakens an entire area or city,

As I started, Oblivion modding seemed without any constraints, but at this point I have t oadmit, it isnt. Maybe you could ask Abo or SteveDog. As far as I know he was trying to translate EGM onto Morrowind, or parts of it.
If they only stopped those game settings from affecting the actor AND all npcs!! it would really be just a fingerschnipp to do.... maybe the obse team is going to provide something in the future.

the funny thing is whenever I played with EGM, it seemed perfectly balanced, the fights are really challenging and exciting. I am still doubting all that abo assumed is correct.
If you are goin to try to rewritte or use something out of EGM, I will gladfully provide information where ever possible.

Anyway, have fun playing Oblivion, its a great RPG! and there are more to come!

Hahahaa. Thanks for the walkthrough, should have it done by teatime.

...back in the real world, I take your offer seriously, tho its gonna be a steep learning curve...

Gonna crank up the CS and see what I can learn.


If I feel like I can achieve anything constructive I know this is gonna be helpful!!!

Thanks again