Are you just counting Fortify, Damage, Drain, and Summons as 4 spell effects? Because http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Spell_Effects is pretty damn long.


The difference is their combinations, which is where Skyrim would pale in comparison. They ARE the same spell effects, I give you that, but they are used with different spell effects to achieve different outcomes. Like my levitation examples.

Impressive, someone managed to make a game with worse user interface than Oblivion.
I'm really impressed, it require hard work just as winning the Darwin Award.
No C64 or flash games can not aply here, I'm talking big budget titles who has teams working for years.

Yes, but like 20 of those effects are driven to specific features of only Morrowind such as corprus or to Almsivi and so on.



I'm still not getting it. How is Skyrim's 86 billion combinations less than Morrowinds 8.96 billion combinations?

Edit: sry, missed a digit out of Morrowind's combinations, I changed it to reflect the actual value.

Yes I counted all effects that boost a stat as one and summon as one.
I would hazard as the manuals of both previous games tagged them like this, skyrim would also do so.

For example ( as I tend to fail at posting opinions. )

Morrowind manual, Fortify Attribute one effect related to X number of stats.
Oblivion manual, Fortify Attribute one effect related to X number of stats.
Skyrim ( atm ) 85 effects: Fortify attribute one effect related to X stats.

So forgive me for speculating but I'd say the company would follow the previous games and just declare the base effect and not the effect and target of that effect as seperate effects.
Edit: gaahh tongue twister.

20 is a little of an exaggeration, but that is right. Vampirism, Corprus, Cure Corprus, Fortify Maximum Magicka, Restore Magicka, Stunted Magicka, Sun Damage, stupid stuff like Weakness to Blight Disease, etc.


I don't see how you're getting such a high number (exaggerations aside) for Skyrim. Morrowind HAS MORE SPELL COMBOS BECAUSE YOU CAN MAKE SPELLS THAT USE MANY SPELL EFFECTS AT ONCE. The MAXIMUM you can use AT ONCE in Skyrim is 2 different spells, and if you want to go ahead and count their 5 or so different states, that's 10 different potential combos, of course, then you have to count the same for Morrowind, so that would be 8*3 possible states.

2 < 8

Edit: corrected then number of spells you can use at once in Morrowind, which is 8 in one combination.
Edit2: Edited for clarification

Stunted Magicka, Sun Damage, Vampirism, Restore Magicka effects exist in the editor in Oblivion as diseases, effects or potions.

More of a concern, yes you can have two spells active at once, has benefits from Oblivion and Morrowind single spell, mostly weakness/ mind control in one hand and damage in the other, however an combined spell has multiple benefits, add soultrap to a spell and use it to finish an enemy, add light or a minor effect who times out 2 second before the turn undead or mind control spell does, so you can cast it again.

Now the number of useful spells in Morrowind and Oblivion: 100 strengths *100 durations * 30 areas of effect * 2 touch or target. 600.000 potential single effect fire damage spells.

Yes it's more than you need, however I regularly used four effect spells in Oblivion silence+ fire damage+ weakness to fire+ weakness to magic.
Yes you have the same for shock and with different strengths, some has area effect on weakness.
or summon fire elemental+ long time low level heal self + invisibility. Found some healing is nice on a getaway spell.
Again duration of invisibility, heal and summon and strength of heal.

Again a good point, with no spell maker you would to be able to buy all of them at different strengths.
you might want to summon a scamp for a short time or a long time. For soultrapping I used 3 seconds.

That's not how it works at all. No one is going to have a spell with 8 different spell effects, as you stack on more effects it gets ridiculously expensive(magicka, not gold). In theory you can have that many effects but it's not going to be a spell you can actually use unless you mod. Not to mention it's not as simple as 2 different spells versus 8 different spell effects allowed in one spell. Each spell has those 5 states, so that's 10 different forms but then you have to calculate the combinations you have have between those 10 as well, which goes far beyond just 8 spell effects. That's just two spells right there. You can't do the same from Morrowind's because you stop with 8 because you can't have a second spell with it. That second spell in the other hand makes a huge difference. Gotta love factorials.

People are seriously freaking out over this o.O. They never said every spell would have just 1 effect each, just that casting spells has become more organic. After all, why throw fireballs at point blank range when you can turn everything into a crispy little bit?
Anyways, Oblivion magic was too bland anyways (IMO) and I rarely created my own spells (coming from a mod user's perspective) the best spells were created outside the game and often could not be replicated or enhanced inside the game. Midas Magic was known for its amazing scripted spells with unique effects, which were obtained in a more reasonable manner than just buying them (you had to "create" it from its basic elements (items) before you could learn it)

Without the ability of Creating spells, I doub't the inital notion of Spell effects being the case, it seems more and more leaning towards "unique" spells that you aquire. and Orzons remenicents of being a scientist brings back interesting memories. now it seems the case is just a Mage becoming a battleship battery really, rather than a tactile user of the arcane

I kinda like the general way the new spell system is heading. It sounds a lot more arcane and mystical and I hope it will feel that way too. Its more like wielding a power than flipping a switch. Fighters could decide on the fly how use their weapon in OB, but a mage only had the spells he brought. Maybe this new system will add in that flexibility.

I just hope that Bethesda can avoid the pitfall of the Paralyze effect this time around (assuming its in, that is), it has been very easy to exploit it previously.

Tweaking spells and exploring magic is great fun though, major fun even. It would be a great loss if magic lost that discovery part. But without knowing any real details about how magic will work its nearly impossible to come with fitting suggestions about it.

Also, it was never confirmed that spell creation won't be added, as he said, its something they are working with. Being spells work in such a time based manner, it would be hard to merge multiple effects if they aren't released in the same manner.
Fireball + Damage Attribute at a long range would work probably in a similar manner to oblivion, but holding down the button and getting a flame thrower could mean the damage attribute would have to be coded to work differently. Instead of having a duration, it might work out that, while being held, it would damage an attribute every few moments of contact with the spell. I'm personally looking forward to the magic system. Even if I cant create a spell in game, I will create it with the construction set if I have to. Hopefully we will get some nice reworks or additions like supreme magick or midas magic (sorry console gamers)

lolwut? Obviously you pick what spell goes in each hand...

Except that you're logic is now working against you. You also have to factor in that those 8 spells can be any combination of the some 60+ spells in the game. ANY combination at all.

Except it's not. If you want to add in the other 60+ spells into that combination equation, then now I have to move in the 85+ spell effects in with the combination factorial of Skyrim. Then we get to the numbers I gave earlier of 86 billion for Skyrim and 8.96 billion for Morrowind.

Regardless of the numbers, my points are still valid, strong, and not easily solved. How do we do magnitude? What about how large the area of effect is? What about duration? What if I want spells throttled low to take out weak enemies so I won't waste magicka? How can I do that without spell making? Unless they have some sort of comprehensive slider system, I don't see how they will do that, or even if they will try. Will the game allow me to cast heal on target? On touch? Can I make healing runes? How do I have a healing spell that heals over time?

Once again, if they do not have a spell making system, we will see some nasty problems spring up.

I have to get in on this.
1- So far, they have not confirmed every spell in the game only using 1 effect, good chance they will combine effects that compliment each other
2- It has not been confirmed that spellmaking has been removed. As it stands, it might be removed, probably because holding and pressing COULD have different effects for different spells ( :flamethrower: and fireball for fire)
3- As he said, it just added to the spreadsheet feeling, you pulled up a list, and punched in numbers for it.

They are working with spellmaking, it could be somewhat volatile if it does not work with the existing system

Magnitudes will probably be counted in, As for duration and area of effect, they just might be ignored for the cone-like area for the hold effects, but would work out just fine for full distance spells, traps, etc

I don't know about how strong, however I can hazzard by what they've said on magic combat that with fire..
Basic attack a flame ball, so I'd say base damage of 20 with more if they level damage to skill / player level / perks.
Second attack jet, a flamethrower, akin to the Anzargars scorcher spell in BG2; lowish damage overtime but can be directed and kept on multipule targets, but drains constant magicka, in Skyrim.
Good for close range, close quarter fights with hordes in tunnels and ally ways.
Third a powered fireball, high AoE, very high damage, high magicka cost, possible damage to self?

Until we know more effects at least, and specific spells no one can answer this in the entire.
So I have no clue as to healing, but three tiers are possible for the basic spell, just as fire has.

Why I feel Spell creation wont be in?

because as stated Lightning spell inherently Drains Magicka (a spell effect pre Skyrim)

Fire damages over time Frenzies people (both spell effects Pre Skyrim)

Frosts Slows people down, ala Drain speed ( a spell effect Pre Skyrim)

these spells now inehrently have other effects tied in so with that yes I feel we may not have Spell creation in addition to Todds (he was asked about this) iffyness in regards to it.

Don't get me wrong, I like additional effects to certain spells, I even advocated a revamped spell list from Oblivion with secondary effects on ALL the spell effects, but what I detailed is nowhere near whats going on(from what we've heard) in Skyrim

I didn't hear about fire causing frenzy, i heard about it having the highest power (and possibly burn) And these side effects to elements will (most likely) be significantly less powerful than a spell of equal cost specializing in that effect. What would be wrong with frost damage + drain speed? It would just have a much higher effect on their ability to move. Shock probably wont damage health and magicka on a 1:1 ratio, and if it does, then a damage magicka spell should cost less to have the same effect.

no, just no

Yea, and in Oblivion (for the physic engine), we could paralize someone and he would fall... Or we could do it on our self, for the "lols"...