Faction Morality: Four Different Paths?

Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:59 pm

I got around to thinking about what it means to join one of the four factions of the Commonwealth. It occurred to me that each one offers a different moral alignment ranging from good to evil and everything in between. Below is just my take, I'd be interested to hear what others think of them.

Railroad

They represent the "Good" moral alignment: total selflessness. They don't want power, they just want everyone to be free no matter the sacrifices required to do so, even if those "people" aren't even really people.

Brotherhood of Steel

The Brotherhood, to me, represent neutral/ambiguous morality in this chapter of the U.S. They believe the way to achieve total peace and progression of the human race is to take absolute power from the common man, so it can be put to better use and he can't hurt himself with it. Sort of like tyrants with a good end-game in mind, or in their minds at least. They want to eradicate abominations of nature such as super mutants, ghouls and synths and anyone involved in the making of them. The Brotherhood have no less qualms about gutting a fleeing, unarmed scientist than an Institute Courser. They are the flying, looming battlestation with every cannon and energy rifle on full display that blasts through its speakers "we just want to help".

Institute

Evil. They want power, and like the Brotherhood they don't want to share it, but unlike them they aren't concerned with anyone's freedom or the welfare of the common man... they want to reshape the world in their image, by force, by any means necessary. They don't care who they have to hurt and they think themselves above the common wastelander, they've even created synthetic humans to replace them. They want efficiency and perfect, impurity isn't to be tolerated, and they put their mission to reshape the future above absolutely anything else, regardless of the moral leaps they have to take.

Minutemen

And then there's the Minutemen who I'd say represent realistic human morality: they don't have unbelievable technology, or power, or an extremely narrow and well defined cause they're willing to slaughter armies in the name of even providing they had the resources to do so... they just want to get to a place where the common man can get by. If they need power to do that they'll take it but it's not what they really want, it's a means of reaching a peaceful state. They aren't perfect; they're human, they have prejudices, they can be shortsighted, they fear what they don't understand and lash out, as we all do, and they sure as hell aren't the most technologically advanced, but they take what they've got and make it work for the good of the common man for a better future.

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Emily Jeffs
 
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Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:36 pm

Brotherhood, Institute and Railroad are the only ones with Mainquest? I mean Minutemen have so far only those Sidequests? Its a bit funny the Minutemen are the most correct Faction but exactly those dont have a Main Quest.

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Donatus Uwasomba
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:38 am

I think there might be a Minutemen related end-game but I'm not sure on specifics. Would prefer not to be too as I'd like to experience each ending for myself.

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Phillip Hamilton
 
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Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:16 pm

Imo, you got it all wrong.

Railroad aren't moraly "good" it's a matter of opinion on the question "are synths living beings with free will", to me it's no, since they just use some cloned flesh

Spoiler
from Shaun's DNA
to hide the pieces of metal, like where they're programmed. They are made to blend in human society, that's why most people think they got free will. They don't imo.

Railroad don't want power but can do whatever it takes with many collateral damage to reach their goal.. such as freeing 5 synths, they could kill a bunch of settlers in

Spoiler
Bunker Hills
or
Spoiler
whipe a synth's memories and give him crappy ones, hence why you get raider synths

BoS don't care about people despite their claims. It's not the cliché white-knights from the Fallout 3 under Lyons' lead. It's back to their roots : harvesting anything high-tec with any mean necessary. Even if it means killing common people/random wastelanders in the process.

Institute aren't down right evil. I'm siding with them and it's not a question of getting power. They just want to survive and continue their researches in peace. Sure they're a bit narrow-minded but with some advice from the Sole Survivor it can change for the better.

Also know that the Institute is divided in various departments, if there's one department to blame for atrocities, it's the Bioscience department for

Spoiler
kidnapping/replacing people for dumb experiments, research on FEV with kidnapped people (Virgil found a cure though)

Minutemen would be the white-knights and are better morally speaking I guess, but their quests aren't well done past the Castle quest (kinda feels like repeatable quests) and overall I don't find the Minutemen interesting. Also blowing up the Institute feels wrong, so many things down there that could help humanity and Super-Mutants gone to waste. It's just dumb in my opinion.

Also...

Spoiler
for your thread title I'd put 2 different paths : Institute and the others, since you only get 2 different endings lol

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Marina Leigh
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:10 am

Apparently there is a Minutemen ending separate from the others. http://www.tentonhammer.com/guides/fallout-4/fallout-4-ultimate-endings-guide-every-ending-revealed is the link that shows the various endings. However like Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 3, the ending cutscene is pretty much the same for each choice. Which is my biggest complaint about the Bethesda's Fallout games. Fallout 1, Fallout 2, and New Vegas showed how each of our choices affected the wasteland while most of our choices in Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 don't matter.

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+++CAZZY
 
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Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:14 pm

This belongs in the spoiler section.... I cannot say anything that spoils the game until it is so I cannot reply.
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Jacob Phillips
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:14 am

Railroad, Brotherhood and Institute are all shades of gray. The trick is picking which shade you can live with.
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naomi
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:42 am

There's a Minuteman ending. If you help the Minuteman enough to take over The Castle and few other key areas, you can continue the MQ with them.

Also, you got it totally wrong.

Railroad only cares about Synths really. They have a good idea but have it so far up their [censored] that they totally forgot about everybody else.

BoS only cares about the BoS. These guys would take out everybody in Diamond City or Vault 81 just to get some special old world technology that is hidden within those areas.

Institute cares only about their works and believe that they are the ones which will save humanity. They might have the best knowledge and technology to bring life back to this world, but how they go about it is very shady, dark, and overall bad to fellow humans...

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James Potter
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:13 am

I have to agree with 7Trickster.

?I would go as far to argue that the Institute is the only one that can offer numerous endings as

Spoiler
the Sole Survivor becomes the head
. I think this is really the key difference, as the others really only seem to see destruction as the means to the end.

?The Railroad is incredibly misguided in there mission, and are heavily divided among themselves. Do you save every possible synth, including Gen 1s as Glory would do, or only Gen 2s on? As Virgil mentions, "The Railroad? I'm surprised they weren't to busy trying to save a toaster from its owner." And even when they do save synths, their successes to their failures are like 1:7. It is explained in the Institute that messing with Synths in that way often leads to many bugs in processing, and cause more harm then good. Libertalia? That was a synth 'freed' by the Railroad. If you want to free the synths, side with the Institute and
Spoiler
free them as the director
.

?The BOS is NOT the same as it was in Fallout 3. Keep in mind that that was a splinter group, and is the one that Elder Maxon regularly condemns. You are no longer fighting with them to support the Capital Wasteland, you are fighting with them to eliminate the technological advancements of man, at least the ones that the BOS isn't allowed to control. This is incredibly shortsighted, as you are trying to save mankind from itself. According to the BOS, Nick Valentine is an abomination and should be destroyed. Or you could also look at the way they treat
Spoiler
Paladin Danse
. With the BOS, when does it end? When they rule the earth or when humanity is destroyed?

The Minutemen ending sadly seems rather slapped on at the last minute, but that is understandable given the depth of the other factions.

I was skeptical of the Institute at first, but after doing quests for every faction, they were the only ones who seemed to have an understanding of their goals and the repercussions of their actions. They want to make the lives of humanity better, and just want to be left alone to do just that. That seems like a just goal to me.

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Bitter End
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:42 am

I agree, you got this about right, I just want to clarify some stuff about the Railroad:
They claim synths have free will and they're working to "free" so-called "runaway" synths, but in all actuality, this is just a guise for taking power and manipulating blind idealists.
Firstly, I'd like to clarify that it is unobjectionably true that synths do not have free will... If they did, then a simple reset code would not be able to shut them down... The definition of free will is the ability to act on one's own regardless of outside influence. This is easily simplified into Bioshock's Andrew Ryan's famous phrase "A man chooses, a slave obeys" and furthered formed into the motif of choice in the Bioshock series as a whole. Therein, a human cannot be anything other than a slave if he is bound by a simple phrase "Would you kindly..." whereas as the synths too are void of free will as they are bound by their respective reset codes.
If you question how synths can have so much personality and individuality, it is simply that the Robotics and BioScience divisions are just very good at their programming and behavior-orienting jobs, as can be read in the terminals about the synth gorillas.
Back to the Railroad: They claim they are "freeing" synths. They are not. They are stealing synths from Institute parties sent to the surface. This can be read about and concluded through various terminals and dialogues throughout the Commonwealth.
They claim synths have "free will." They do not (as explained above), and the Railroad is simply memory-wiping and reprogramming the captured synths to say and act as if they had the free will to run away, and so do such that, and do not want to go back to the Institute.
If you still don't believe me, ask yourself: Have you ever actually seen a synth attempt to escape from the Institute before having any kind of influence from the surface?
This is why I consider the Railroad the worst and most morally-bankrupt faction and will only ever side with them in a playthrough for the sole purpose of the quest achievements.
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Deon Knight
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:09 am

It's all a matter of perspective, even the Nazis didn't go walking around "Lol I'm so evil! herpederp!"*

*(The more because there was no internet yet, but you catch my drift.)

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casey macmillan
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:06 am

Despite all the 'people shouldn't have to live like this' attitude, the BoS don't provide an alternative, and apart from fighting common enemies when it suits them, they are basically out for number 1. They have no ethical framework, other than that focussing on themselves. In practical terms, they will "...use whatever means necessary..." to further BoS goals (quote from Proctor Teagan).

The Minutemen have a co-operative mind-set. They aren't a militarised faction per se, and the focus is on assisting each other where they can - hence the provisioning mechanics, etc. They don't have an ethical framework because they don't need one...they are just a loose collective of dudes trying to get along and survive.

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Gen Daley
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:21 am

Regardless of your view on synths, you're both missing the point of what makes up the Good moral alignment and why the Railroad fit the bill. Selflessness? Check. Putting your own skin on the line to save those who can't save themselves? Check. Not concerned with power or domination? Check. Resorting to violence only when truly necessary? ..mostly.

Also, the fact synths (Gen 3s), despite their borderline-perfect adaptation to a human form with realistic emotions and personalities, are arguably just machines, artificial beings with no humanitarian value (this point will remain subjective so I'm not even arguing it), goes to show just how "good" the Railroad are to take up such a cause in the name of such a persecuted... cyber-species? They're going out of their way to save beings who for the majority of people are considered lesser than creatures.

They do care about people in their own way. Their mantra is the betterment of humanity, taking away their toys so they can be put to better use and so they can't kill themselves and each other with them. As in, everything they do, the whole point of their cause, is to save humanity from itself. Would be pretty dumb if the Brotherhood "didn't care about the people and only cared about themselves" if their every action wasn't done with the intention of ultimately helping better humanity.

Yes, they don't care about the people on an individual, micro basis if they get in the way; their morals are very loose, as I made clear in my post, and they take absolutely no prisoners. But their goal, at the end of the day, is as Maxson puts it:

https://youtu.be/yU9TxyTMhDg?t=28s

"We will save humankind from it's worst enemy; itself."

Admittedly I've not finished the Institute's main story, but you don't need to do that to realize that yes, the Institute's methods embody the evil alignment. They have nary a care for the wellbeing of anyone other than those of the Institute. They don't care for the world as it is, the innocents, the regular people. They don't care about wiping out, manipulating, capturing, experimenting on, etc, any person, indiscriminately, to get what they want. Sure, like the Brotherhood and Minutemen their goal is a "better future for humanity" but their means of achieving that end is what makes them evil. What you do to reach your ends defines you, not the ends themselves.

I'm aware it has different departments. Some aspects of the Institute, sure, are just devoted to research to better the organization. Others, not so much. All speak for the organization as a whole. They're under the same banner. They have a board of directors who agree on every decision, so there's no excuse for it.

Now, whether or not the Institute's morals can be improved through PC influence, I don't know. Again, I'd prefer not to find out.

I don't see how this is in disagreement with my point? Yes, the Institute only cares about themselves and their idea of a future for humanity. Yes, they are dark, shady and bad.

Considering I've completed two different endings already outside of the Institute's, you'll find there's at least 3, maybe 4 if the Minutemen have one.

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Cathrin Hummel
 
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Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:27 pm

While true for in-universe characters, the players are a bit more omniscient. I judge morals on what someone is willing to do to reach their goal, and the goal itself. If we can define those two things we can have a fairly accurate reading of where each faction lies, if it can lie anywhere.

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Suzie Dalziel
 
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Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:07 pm

You said Institute departments are under one banner so no excuse for every scientists in the Institute, by your logic every single german living in Germany during WW2 should be put to the sword because they lived in Nazi territory.

Right?

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Danielle Brown
 
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Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:44 pm

I didn't say every single scientist, lol. I'm reviewing the organization, not every single person working within it. The board of directors in charge certainly aren't ignorant of what goes on, and they're in charge. That's my point. Of course there will be exceptions, Dr. Li and Virgil being two of them.

But to use your argument; if the Brotherhood, according to you, "don't care about people", how do you go about explaining the one Initiate who steals food from the BoS to feed feral ghouls, in an attempt to restore their humanity? "by your logic" every single BoS member, including that guy, are callous [censored]s who only look out for themselves.

So yeah, I'm not really sure where your line of thinking is taking you, currently. Magical places, no doubt. :wink_smile:

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herrade
 
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Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:38 pm

I feel like the railroad are terrorists (I know it might sound strange), but one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Though the synths may or may not be sentient (if so, then they are people), but they would kill other people to free them. Then wipe said synths memories effectively killing the sentient being they claim to have rescued.

The Institute wreaking havoc on the world above in order to achieve their ends. Though I do believe that technology can better peoples lives, the Institute is going about reaching their goals without sufficient caution or morals. Regardless many of the technolgies they have would benefit many now, if the harm that some of their other tech causes could be curtailed.

The Brotherhood of Steel may be a little authoritarian and a tad, agressive, but their goals are beneficial. They have some of the technological caution the institute needs, but the BoS (technophilic as they are) are by no means philistines. I, however, do think that destoring the knowledge of the Institute is shortsighted. Regardless keeping dangerous tech out of the hands of most wastlanders is agood thing.

I have little negative to say about the Minutemen, and their goals are very positive. Their goals are, however not mutually exclusive to most (if not all other joinable factions). Unfortunately there is not much to say about them.

As for my alliegence... Semper Invicta!

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Antonio Gigliotta
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:46 am

To me the RR are pretty much nut cases. And I think they know it and can only feel like they 'win' after they kill anyone that can or would disagree with them. Winners by default, regardless of their idiotic logic for their actions. It's like they wanted to fight for something, anything, so hard that they just made something up and went with it.

The BoS have the right idea. In the post-bomb world if you have to speak and act in terms people of the time understand. Full all out power. They don't hide it. They don't sneak around. They take control so that real progress can follow.

The Institute is not evil by any means. They don't just kill a settlement because they were having a bad day. Everything they do has a purpose and meaning and is to further their research which (depending on what's to be believed) in the future would benefit everyone. To them even if everyone on the surface completely dies out, that just leaves them to move above ground a build a utopia for mankind the likes have never been seen before. To them any means justifies the end. Whether you like it or not depends on where you live.

If any faction can be called 'good' it would be the MM. They seem to be the actual selfless group and just want anyone willing to live in peace to have the opportunity to do so.

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Jerry Jr. Ortiz
 
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Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:03 pm

Not necessary. BoS only cares about their own goals and ideas. They want to take or destroy technology they think that wastelanders have. They don't hide it anymore and such, true. But that's because they know that they are powerful. (Someone did a Free-For-All between all Legendary enemies and the Legendary BoS Paladins won. Twice).

The problem with them lies is that they don't care about anyone outside of their faction. Even if you surrender or act peacefully toward them, as long as you don't side with them and their ideals... They'll kill you, if necessary, to get what they want. I cannot, and will never, support such mentality. (They also hate anything not-human, including friendly ghouls and the like).

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R.I.P
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:57 am

https://youtu.be/yU9TxyTMhDg?t=2m1s

Really beating a dead horse, here.

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Michelle davies
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:26 am

Of course they'll kill you if you don't give in to their ideals. Again in this post-bomb world that is what people understand. Try to talk them out of it and they'll just laugh at you.

My first PC I played as someone really from the Pre-Bomb world. He felt that Super Mutants, Synth and Ghouls were un-natural and needed to be destroyed. He was aware of the friendly ghouls, but felt that killing them was doing them a favor.

Just to note my current PC has quite a different approach, as will my following role-plays.

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clelia vega
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:13 am


If that is your definition of free will, then humans don't have it either since we are defined by outside influences. Without outside influences, we don't exist as anything more than blank slates. Whether free will exists at all is a debate for another time. Humans are essentially reproductive robots with biological software and hardware systems. So if humans have free will, then Synths can have free will as well.

Free will in synthetic organisms is more complex than what you think. Curie and Nick both have free will, but in completely different ways. Curie has free will defined by her centuries in the vault and her experiences with the Sole Survivor to create her current personality while Nick has the free will of the Ghost in the Machine.
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Naazhe Perezz
 
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Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:27 pm

The way I see them is:

1 BoS: about as close to pure good as you get....they aren't necessarily nice and more often than not they go out of their way to appear as jerks but when you look at what they actually do and what they actually stand for these guys really are there just to help and save people. The only one that makes them look bad to a lot of people is Proctor Teagan....a rather disgruntled individual who is clearly displeased with his duty as an armorer and who makes some rather unpleasant implications about how to obtain food for the BoS.....ignore his missions, he does not speak for the Brotherhood.

2 The Railroad: these guys only care about synths and nothing else.....humanity can all burn and go to hell for all they care. Complete and utter selfishness and a rather comical proposition to a human in a post-apocalyptic world like Fallout 4. They are intent on destroying both the good guys and the evil so they are a sort of very chaotic neutral.

3 Institute: Pure Evil. Self explanatory really, they torture and murder and kidnap and create infiltration robots to kill and replace people to kill some more.

4 The Minutemen: Truly devoid of any and all morality. They will cheer for whoever you please, even is that is the Institute and if asked who to side with they align with the selfish Railroad as they basically seek to destroy both the good guys and the evil.

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Kirsty Collins
 
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Post » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:47 pm

Everybody's straight up lying when they say th BoS is only out for itself; they regularly protect the commonwealth and that cannot be argued. Period.
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Rhysa Hughes
 
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Post » Fri Dec 11, 2015 1:13 am


You are confusing development from tabula rasa with inability to act on one's own. Let me simplify: There is no secret code-phrase to control humans' actions. This code phrase for synths creates this "inability" to act on their own, that code phrase being outside influence. You are right in that our personalities' development from outside influence to some degree of tabula rasa (though that matter in itself is historically debated), but ultimately humans can choose to act outside of what society tells them to do. It's like when girls say they have to shave and put on make up... No, they don't have to, they only think society is making them; but many women have emphasized their free will in not shaving and not putting on makeup just because they think society is forcing them to. If you used the reset code on a synth, it couldn't "choose" to act outside of the commands of the reset code -- There is no free will there.
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teeny
 
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