And see that's the thing Styles I really don't want things to improve. I WANT the NCR to fail or at least stagnate because that's a much more interesting story to me. I want House to create something less than pre war America and for the Legion to fall in on itself, because post scarcity is boring and at minimum against the heart of Fallout. And I'll take a look at A Canticle, I've heard things about it but never read it.

My observations have largely been from information that we have, I mean sure Sawyer and the gang could write tomorrow that the NCR finds some ps tech and it's over, but that's not as interesting, at least not to me, as the idea that the NCR and the other factions continue on current trends that we've seen so far.

I will agree with you on one point. I am not to crazy about one faction reaching pre-war state. Pretty much means game over for every other faction. Which means Fallout would become boring.

Things could go bad for NCR. But the tech is out there, it is a scientific inevitability. Which means that in Fallout Universe, replication, cold fusion and teleportation is possible. Someone smart enough like say Mr.House makes just one machine able to make Uranium from nothing, then its game over.

If more than one faction however gets their hands on this tech, then its a whole new ball game. Pre-war like nations will form, they will go to war with one another and so on.

All I am trying to say is that yes it is possible for NCR or another faction in the Fallout Universe to make it to a pre-war state. Will it happen? Thats up to future devs.

Should give it a read. Fallout 2 was going to have refrences in it, like the Abbey that was cut from the game. With Van Buren, the game was going to end with everything getting nuked again.

I'll find the PDF somewhere online. So let me reframe this, let's just assume the NCR doesn't find some ps tech or something of the like. How do you see things going for them?

Unless the Legion totally falls apart or at least spliters, then NCR will have a hard time moving East. They will spread north. It will be hard but basic tech will pull them through. I don't see them taking over America anytime soon.

If the Legion falls apart, then I can see them expanding east very fast. Rolling over people as they go. It will be harder for them to keep things stable as they go.

Its a slow inevitable death for all. We were killin ourselves before and we will finish the job after. Human nature. Everone will go back to dust........then super mutants will trickle down from Jacobstown and take over the strip

Watching FalloutBob and Styles debate is like watching a tennis match...only more entertaining.

Here are my two cents:

Mr. House: Will only make New Vegas an echo of Pre-War Las Vegas. He will not advance any further from the Mojave.

NCR: They will fail since they are imitating a Pre-war United States.

Legion: Rome....'nuff said.

Independant: Once the Courier dies, so will his/her society.

Basically, all of these factions share one similarity....they are imitating old world societies. I don't know about any of you guys but it was the Old World that destroyed much of civilization (Rome fell long before the Great War but they still crumbled due to expanding itself too far).

Instead I vote for VAULT GOVERNANCE!

But in all seriousness, the whole theme of Fallout is that "War never changes". So in other worlds, they will all eventually fail.

The Cycle of Nations:

"From bondage to spiritual faith.
From spiritual faith to great courage.
From courage to liberty.
From liberty to abundance.
From abundance to selfishness.
From selfishness to complacency.
From complacency to apathy.
From apathy to dependency.
From dependency back again into bondage."

--Sir Alex Fraser Tyler, A Scottish jurist and historian

EDIT: To be honest, I just want Rivet City and Lyon's BoS to wage war with one another in the Capital Wasteland. What happens in the Mojave doesn't interest me as much...unless the NCR miraculously manages to arrive at DC.

My thoughts on the matter, such as they are:

We survived before without oil. In that time, there were far, far more people than there are in the Fallout era California. Far more. Life expectancy will sabilize itself in regions so that the number of people to number of avialable resources, ie food and water, will become a balance. At what point that ratio stops is anyone's guess. Life in the Mojave has been going on long before the NCR or Legion showed up. GoodSprings and Novac, Primm all didn't just spring up in 10 years time, they've been there a lot longer as well as the people in those communities. They have survived without any outside help already, and they would continue to do so. That probably goes without saying.

Amish communities. To my knowledge, they do everything in their lives without the aid of oil or technology besides what we consider "old world" technology. IE, horse and buggy, mule/horse drawn plows, that sorta thing. The Amish survive and continue to thrive even, without technology at all. Native American's survived in the land.

What I am getting at, and what the Fallout Universe is showing us in every single iteration released for us to play, is that the human race, and even the Super Mutants, adapt. They change and adapt to the current state of affairs. The sick and old die out, along with the weak. Those that are currently alive in the world of Fallout are the strong. They have found a way to survive, for centuries mind you, that has actually enabled them to thrive and prosper.

It's a different world now. They are using the current wildlife, such as it is (mutated and all) to their advantage. This will ultimately change the human and super mutant races. I count ghouls in the human race, but I suppose they might as well be their own race for simplistic sake I suppose. The NCR and Legion will change to adapt to what their environment is. If that means they splinter into different groups, then that is what will be. Governments and nations do not stay the same forever. Evidence of that is easily seen even today. You cannot tell me that England is the exact same as it has been for the last 2 millenia. Of course not, the populace there has changed and adapted to their environment as time progressed.

It's the same in the Fallout Universe. The populace of the world, such as it is, will change and adapt continuously to their environment. Sure, people will die. People die every second, that will not change. What will change, is the fact that humans, ghouls, super mutants will continue to find ways to survive. At this point, nothing new will be invented until there is a sense of stability. Once there is stability, long term stability (more than just a mere few decades) a region will begin to create new tech based on the matierials of the region. It will be created to allow the populace of that region to adapt to the changes in the area, or simply to help them survive.

The world seems to have been irrevocably changed. Forever. This is the state they will live in for the rest of their lives, they will change and adapt to progress through it.

There will be no pre-war or 2051 environment. It will no longer happen. Cars will no longer be used. Another form of transportation will be created, whether with Brahmin, Big Horners, or whatever other type of domisticated animal that has survived/mutated. Some of you think that these people of this time are short sighted or even looking backwards to use the very same tech that they surely have to know will never be useable.

Electricity will be something that gets expanded on. The same tech that is used for Energy Weapons could easily be expanded into a new form of transportation. However, the only way that happens, is through long term peace and stability with regional consilidation. Without all of that, and luck, and the smart people it would need, the races of the Fallout Universe will all be more akin to the Amish.

House can restore New Vegas and some surrounding areas....that is his plan, to rebuild Vegas to it's form glory, and with his robots and vast knowledge he would have very little trouble doing what he wants. As he said, he wants to be putting people into space within decades.

The money he gets (and would continue to get) from the NPC civilians would fund him, he would quickly build industry that would in turn build what he needs, and supply to the NCR (more money and would keep the NCR afloat so that it people come to Vegas). People living there mighten be very free, but the living standards would greatly increase, and the people would have job working for House in the factories etc.


House has all the pre-war technology, and the know how to use and even advance it, he has the dam for as much power as he needs, a robotic army that can defeat any invaders.....there is nothing stopping him from reaching his goal.

Legion will

/thread

House is the man with the plan. He's gonna put men in orbit again in half a century... or was it a full century?

this. If anyone is gonna restore the Mojave it's gonna be Mr house, there are factories, farms and solar planel planets in the area that he can use to create a small per-war haven, and hey he might even do his new planet idea given time :thumbups:

there's also the fact the crouier might tell him of the Think Tank & Sserri Madre Casino (spelt wrong), with a Robot army he could easily find these places and use their tech to benfit vegas. he's an genuis so no doudt he'd be able to repoduce it.

California is able to support the number of people it does at present precisely because of water coming from the Colorado. Even if the flow is greatly diminished supporting the population of the NCR really shouldn't be a problem after they secure the Mojave. Look at it this way, water from there currently supplies most of urban Southern California with domestic and industrial needs and irrigates an area of 600,000 acres and this is in a situation where large cities in Nevada are using up a large proportion of the water themselves.

As for pre-war resources the NCR would have staggering quantities of steel, copper, aluminum etc etc in the ruins of Los Angeles, San Diego and other major cities, more than a population in the single-digit millions could use up in a very long time.

Energy is more of a problem but they do have access to coal since as well as some in California itself there are larger deposits in Southern Oregon. Worth noting that it's mentioned in FO:NV that The Lonesome Drifter worked in a coalmine at one point which makes sense given that there's a great deal more coal than oil about and it shouldn't have been near to being exhausted by 2077.

Worth also mentioning in the bigger picture that you need a large population to support a high-tech civilisation. Nobody other than the NCR has the number of people needed to work in all the various industrial sectors required to get above a 19th Century level.

Actually, you don't NEED oil, you want to know why? Because those SEC, MFC, and ECPs that people use on weapons? Those items, Fission Batteries, et cetera. All those can be used for industrial and humanitarian purposes if people tried. But ultimately, we can't argue much because at the end of the day, Fallout is a video game series, and despite it's lore, the truth is, we only know bits and pieces of it's past, and the games only cover limited tropes.

Now, on to technology. The world of Fallout has very miraculous technology, the machines at the Madre were common place according to Dean, which shows how advanced society is. But technology isnt the bane of man, but man is the bane of man. What we do with technology is up to us. As well, some of the best, most powerful machines in the world, both real and Fallout, must be respected. Because the moment you stop respecting that powerful technology, it will kill you.

That said, I believe House would have the best chance of survival. As Ulysses said, Legion would keep rolling West until it turned in on itself, and NCR will continue trying to claim all it can, not even able to hold it's own borders. House, funnily enough like he is ingame, is the status quo. House and NCR need each other. House, and Vegas under his guidance, stand the chance to return the Las Vegas region to its Pre-War status, both financially and structure wise. Also, there ARE industrial capabilities, the New Vegas Steelyard is an example. But ultimately, we can't argue 'House doesnt have this or that' because NCR is the weed in his garden ingame, and he had to find the proper tool to burn it out. Unless you are a violent person, the careful player ultimately shows House would prefer a person with diplomatic abilities over someone causing trouble. NCR needs House more than they know, they don't understand technology or business as he does. Seriously, I mean come on, he's a man who graduated from college, and started a multibillion dollar industry company from 22 years old up to the point of the Great War, when he was 57 at the time. I have no qualms with NCR minus their attempt to snatch Vegas from him, in fact, I could see nothing better than strong political and diplomatic ties between the two nations, and all the positive trading benefits that come with it.

Regarding Brahmin Barons with all their power, it reminds me of political machines in American history. They were stopped, but it took some determination by various people. NCR also needs a Teddy roosevelt... just saying.

And a question, what is the possibility that the NCR could develop some kind of hydrogen power sources?

Also I think in the next 50-100 years (hopefully after house and not yesman takes over Vegas) the NCR will absorb the area, but definitely with some negotiations.

Exactly, the way I see it, the NCR is the best bet for the Wastes, but Mr. House is best for Vegas, and in the long run, the restoration of a Pre-War society. I see Mr. House running Vegas helps unburden NCR ALOT, and when NCR has got a proper political system, it will be ready for a proper expansion.

I agree, which would make House winning the best choice, even for NCR supporters.

Most of the people here are only seeing 'NCR FTW!' without thinking the long term repercussions of a man like Kimball staying in office would to do NCR. House winning and getting Kimball and Oliver booted from their offices is one of the best situations for NCR ever. If the NCR keeps trying to expand, you end up seeing NCR become unstable like a shanty house until it collapses. If you slap them back to reality and show them what happens when they try to forcibly expand into other nations. When they retreat from Hoover Dam, NCR basically is seen to clean the senate house, secure their borders, and rethink their motives. With a person like Hanlon going in to politics (If you keep him alive) it only further helps prove what happens when good heads are put into the NCR structure.

NCR losing Vegas to House ultimately allows them to come back when Vegas is brighter and more civilized financially and economically, and NCR is stronger and more structured.

The Legion, though admirable in it's early form, has no place in a world with groups like Lyon's BoS, NCR, and Mr. House. Technology can save humanity much more than a barbaric 'survival of the fittest' attitude.