Let me start off by noting the metric by which I judge this. For starters my value is that of quality of life judged by all information we have about the Fallout world and to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. In broad terms I would say that life in 2051 was the highest point in the Fallout universe because it was before the New Plague, Energy Crisis and China-American war. Thus my standard of a factions success is how close they are to obtaining, sustaining and surpassing that quality of life.

Quality of life is more than just technology though, the world of Fallout is very technological but has a low quality of life. The NCR has Vault City and probably San Francisco now which means they have some pretty advanced technology under their belt, House has an army of robots, and even the Legion uses stealth boys, engineering, metal working etc. All of that isn't to say that things couldn't be better in different areas mainly that many technological advances need to be restored (like cars...) and many need to be more wide spread (like electricity). That's why I'm using Maslow instead because technology in itself doesn't produce a good quality of life.

The NCR.

In the long term the NCR is doomed because of two basic facts. A. Their society is almost anti-conservation and B. All the conservation in the world won't produce oil and other non-renewable materials. One thing to be remembered is that the reason the Fallout world is so [censored] up is because there weren't enough resources for enough people, that hasn't changed. Most mines are empty, and there is almost no oil for the taking. That said the only way for the NCR to survive is rapid growth and assimilation, the kind of which we saw in New Vegas, and yet because of it's democratic and bureaucratic nature it's unlikely such an expansion can happen past the Mojave.

This backed up by NCR characters in the game. Hanlon says the NCR has run out of water. The OSI scientist says it's only 10 years until they hit a food crisis. The NCR Gold reserves have been destroyed putting it's currency on the path of devaluation. The NCR is rebuilding pre war america without pre war resources. Even IF they did hold the Dam it wouldn't matter. They need more land for grazing, more mouths to feed, more water for both and Lake Mead and the Colorado is only a temporary fix. There won't be a Hoover Dam around every corner and large scale industrialization is impossible because of a lack of most pre war materials we used for industrialization. The NCR is doomed no matter what.

The Legion.

Ignoring the unethical nature of the Legion let's assume they take the Mojave, now what? Besides a NCR that will continually throw whatever troops and Rangers it can muster at it in the Mojave the outlook is grim for the Legion. The Legion will fall for lack of manpower. Using the information we have about the Legion in NV only and not speculation they aren't strong enough to push into California past the Mojave Outpost, Legate would be the new Caesar by the Second Battle and Legate doesn't trust the Centurions running things back east. From what we've learned the campaign to take the Four States Commonwealth has just ended, and that the Denver campaign almost broke the Legion. Legate believes the Mojave is much like Denver but this time it's even worse with the Mojave. Lastly Sawyer notes the Legion needs to constantly break down members of other groups to survive.

Now with all of that information the fate of the Legion becomes clear. At this point it would be more so a matter of a consolidation of the empire rather than expansion because of two factors from above: The NCR and controlling the Four States. There is some force/s in the Four States that required over 30 years of campaigning to conquer. And even if the Four States remain secure the NCR will still divert resources and probably run some sort of covert operation against it using the Veteran Rangers, a style of campaign that Boone shows can be very effective.

With consolidation, not expansion the goal things start looking worse for the Legion. The Legion spy units would be cast aside due to Legate's hatred of their "woman like tactics" and so to goes their information networks along with the ability to hurt enemies covertly. VR's and Mercs from the NCR continue to assassinate Centurions and higher level Legionaries. The Mojave continues to become fortified draining resources from the Four States. The Generals/Centurions back east have less men and weapons to work with, leading to problems once again in the Four States. The day it falls apart would probably be the day a General back east defies one of Legate's commands or something of the like.

House
House could rule over the Mojave much longer than the decade I predict for the NCR and a few decades at best for the Legion, but lack of resources still remain. The average wastelander in House's Mojave would probably be richer and better fed than most of the NCR's citizens if only because of a lower tax burden and probably lower rates for getting power from the Hoover Dam. The Strip, Freeside and Westside would all be on the level of the NCR's better cities easily.

But even if House is able to sustain this standard of living it would only for as long as the NCR remains a unit. Further this standard of living is still much lower than that of 2051 with a lack of cars, air conditioning, etc etc. The basic fact is that House also doesn't have the means for industrialization, nor does the game indicate such. In the House ending he simply continues on having Vegas be a tourist trap. Vegas and the Mojave under House get to bypass the NCR problem of lack of food and water because the population is much lower than the NCR's but it doesn't bypass the problem of lack of nonrenewable resources.

The key difference between House and the NCR is that because of the lack of democratic and political rights the many will be able to die to keep the Mojave together. The difference between House and the Legion is that is robot army keeps him safe from all threats internal and external. But that's not to say the quality of life in the Mojave will ever reach 2051. Vegas will be something like Vault City or San Francisco under House but Vegas will remain little more than an echo compared to the past.

Independent
Even under the best case scenario (the robot army was kept, peace with the NCR, peaceful Legion retreat and a young courier) all that's basically been done is an House ending without the ability to go on forever into the foreseeable future. It's unlikely the courier could redo House's living forever bit given House couldn't even go back into his chamber if it's opened. That said an authoritarian regime could in theory with the robot army perpetuate itself in power but then for the average Mojave citizen the quality of life would come nowhere near 2051 and it still runs into the lack of nonrenewable issue.

A democratic nation like the NCR would work for a time but I have doubts as to whether or not a Mojave nation could expand rapidly enough to escape the bureaucratic problems of the NCR in it's expansion. In truth probably not.


Conclusions

Short of some type of post scarcity creating device or machine the Fallout world will never return to it's height of 2051, although that's not to say the world can't be made into some better than the period between 2052 and 2077. In the end though the Mojave and all of the Fallout civilizations will fall and history will go on. And with every generation of civilizations in America that rise and fall and war with each other, the chance of post scarcity or a 2051 standard of living world is reduced.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Do you think any faction can bring a 2051 quality of life to the average wastelander? If so how? And if no factions can restore the Mojave to a 2051 level, which factions comes closest?

This could have been summed up by simply saying. "No faction can rebuild to the same level as it was in 2051 because the resources ran out by the time of the Great War."

They can get pretty close though. Fossil Fuels maybe gone but man made fuels can replace some of it. There is solar and wind. What resources are left aren't under the pressure of 400 million people. The Population of the USA as of 2281 would be what 10 to 15 million? You can also recycle alot of the old world to build the new.

The resources aren't the only problem, the Legion for example really isn't as effected by resource scarcity as of now because of the anti-consumerist nature of the Legion and will fail for different reasons before they even reach that limit. The NCR isn't just facing a problem of the non renewables but simply having enough land to feed it's population and enough water for crops and it's citizens. The non renewables could be the summarizing argument for House and independent I suppose but more needed to be said about House vs Independent and this was a good time to do so.

I vote for the Powder Gangers!

NCR could rediscover desalination. I am sure there is some egg head like James sitting around NCR somewhere researching GECK technology. There's the guy in Fallout New Vegas trying to something just like that with Vault 22.

NCR could take over other Factions and keep expanding, to get the land and water they need. If they win in the Mojave, there's alot of water right there. If the Legion blocks them, they can just keep going North and South.

They put more into solar and wind energy, they can power normal desalination plants. They have a large population, but its a very small fraction of what it was at pre-war levels. So far less people around, to support. Once they figure pre-war farming tech, such as those massive combines, they can grow even larger fields of crops.

Edit: There is already the super smart Shi Scientists that are most likely now working for the NCR. So at least NCR is trying to rebuild to some pre-war level. They have the brains and the will, as well as the might to try to get things done.

Sorry, this was too long. We all know the Mojave can't be restored.

Desalinization is expense and costly in our world let alone managing to create a new plant in the post Apocalypse. Without the courier the OSI efforts show no signs of success and the fact that more attention isn't paid to Vault 22 says a lot about the NCR's priorities. But let me stop you now because in real terms it's basically to late. Hanlon said the aquaifers and lakes of the NCR have already been dried up, by only what a million people? What does that tell you about the remaining amount of resources left by the prewar world? Only a million or so people have dried up all the water in California a place that right now supports 35 million. That should be a testament to you about how few resources of any kind there are left. In any case once again the NCR can't expand fast enough to keep up with it's needs for resources because of it's bureaucratic incompentence and the very nature of the NCR as a democratic nation.

You keep speaking of using solar and wind but: A. Those aren't as productive as coal or oil. B. It takes a massive amount of limited resources to create those types of things. C. There is a limit to what you can scavenge. Also pre war farming tech like we have right now requires, you guessed it, oil. Oil powers the harvesters and makes quick transportation of foods possible limiting waste and rot. Even something as simple as tires are made of oil which means you can't even really restart mechanized vehicles.

The Legion are working backwards, not forward. So we can count them out.

Mr.House can make the Mojave to some pre-war state, but I doubt it will spread beyond his little Empire.

NCR has the brains, the tech, the will and the might. They have most likely have the Shi, along with the smart guys in New Vegas trying to figure out Vault 22. They have the vast resources of NCR to draw upon. So they can if given the time. They could turn the Mojave to a pre-war state.

There are no longer 400 million people to take care of, there is only about 3 to 5 million in all of NCR. So they can easily support those people cheaply with what resouces are left within NCR and with Solar and wind as well as man made fuels. Desalinization would be cheap and easy with only 3 to 5 million or so people. It only gets costly when you have 34 million people to supply water to. NCR also has robots to man those Plants, so little to no people to pay.

My point about the people in trying to figure out Vault 22 is at least they are TRYING. They have people with BRAINS to try to solve problems with SCIENCE. NCR could have the Shi and they are super smart.

Styles here's the bottom line about the NCR.

A. An inability to advance farming techniques due to a lack of competition from brahmin barons, labor surplus which devalues the need for production increasing devices, and lack of oil needed for the re mechanization of agriculture means the NCR will face limits on food production. Further while expansion can alleviate some of those issues it only further solidies the power of Brahmin barons who get first pick of new lands (as evidenced by that one Rancher in Vegas.) and increases the population further reducing the need for labor saving devices keeping the cycle ongoing.

B. Even if the NCR acquires the Dam the pre war aquafiers and lakes are low and will take ages to restore themselves. Once again what does it the fact that there must only be about a million people in the NCR and yet they've already hit the limits of what California can support. You keep bringing up 400 million people and then saying since the population is lower now everything will be ok but that's not the case. Those 400 million have already taken most of the resources and now California can't even support 1 million.

C. Past the food and water there still can't be re industrialization because the pre war world already used them and some things can't be scavenged but are essential to industrialization. And even IF you can scavenge your way to some make shift industrialization it still won't be enough for the growing population of the NCR.

In a best case scenario the NCR will probably become like the old American south post the Civil War. There will be a few nice cities like San Francisco, Shady Sands, Vault City in which some small industry arises, most simply to meet military applications like the manufacture of armor and ammo. Most people will live in the countryside, make their own goods from scavenging, and be very poor or serfs to the Brahmin barons. They'll make some scientific progress but industrialization will be slow and will have limits.

A ) the thing with the Brahmin Barons is a political thing. Politics can change, there was a time in America when all oil companies were owned by one giant company. I bet people though that would never change.

B ) NCR has scientist to help them out of their mess. They are at least working on it. The Shi live in California and they are most likely apart of NCR and they were pretty close to pre-war levels. California's population as it is now in our time is about 34 million people. Fallout Universe it would be about 45 million pre-war. They are all but dead now. Population is easily sustainable in the low millions. They just haven't got everything up and running yet. They need time. Key word here is TIME.

C ) NCR already has the Gun Runners and they are making alot of new things. NCR has rail roads. Now where do you think they got them from? NCR can recycle the old world and use it to make the new world. This is what they are doing. They have the will the brains and the might, all they need is TIME.

I could see NCR surviving off those Sierra Madre Vending Machines. If they find large scale versions of those they could suvive but theres none of those

To the average wastelander? No. I honestly don't believe there is. However, it is my opinion that House could come as close as one could to it.

A. Politics can change but realistically the only force in the NCR that could overwhelm the power of the Brahmin Barons would be the development of industrial titans. From what we've seen in game the Baron's power will continue on into the near future because the two pillars of their power hasn't/won't change. They still have the most money in NCR society and so influence the ballot box the most. And they still have control over who gets new land first. But we could go on and on about the barons all day, so let's speak in broad terms that will happen regardless of their political power.

The NCR has a large population used in agriculture which under cuts the need for labor saving devices. And labor saving devices in agriculture will be even more costly to produce because of lack of resources. Secondly there isn't much competition because of the increasing consolidation of farming and ranching which has resulted in Brahmin Barons. Those two things will go on regardless of the NCR's political situation.

B.There are limits to science even in Fallout. Plus as of the now the very fact OSI hasn't had a team out to Vault 22 yet and a focus on military affairs will divert scientific resources. If anything the NCR's scientist are focused on keeping what they have and restoring a little of the pre war like trains not really inventing new items.

C. The NCR's production methods and industrialization is primitive and small scale at best. It closely mirrors the 1860s South's level of industrial development in honesty which isn't saying much.

A ) That's your opinion that things will never change. Things always change, war being the only obvious exception.

B ) We don't know the limits of Fallout tech. Robots with AI, Androids that think they are human, and to others look human and even smell human (being built by nerds in the Commonwealth), teleportation, replicator technology. I say science is well on its way to solving problems in the Fallout Universe. Technology was about to put America back on top, before the Great War. So I don't see why it wouldn't be able to after.

C ) Again that is your opinion. NCR has proven they can produce large numbers of weapons, enough to equipe a large army. They have the means to do produce many things.

Key thing you don't seem to understand is time. It very well could take many decades, but at some point it is possible for them to make things go back to pre-war levels.

No it's really not, to reach pre war levels they HAVE to have some of the nonrenewable resources that have been used. Sort of some post scarcity provides anything you want machine being created no faction can reach a 2051 in quality of life. Further it's funny you bring up their armor and weapons manufacturing considering that it's noted the NCR can't even provide armor for every trooper and that they can't put a Service Rifle in every troopers hand as seen at Forlorn Hope. Just to do what they're doing now requires massive amounts of taxes and it doesn't even reach were America's been industrially since the Civil War. In any case short of some magical pre war machine in a bunker being uncovered the NCR doesn't have the scientific resources to develop new technologies, they can't even scrap together a real Power Armor unit for Christ sake. The NCR's scientific community has been shown largely concerned in keeping what they have (like the Dam) and restoring what they don't (like Helios for two examples).

So back when I said this whole topic could be simply put as and I quote "No faction can rebuild to the same level as it was in 2051 because the resources ran out by the time of the Great War."

And you said "that isn't the only problem." You should have just simply said "Yes Style, you are right I made a bull crap topic that no one can debate me."


Fallout Universe has Nerds in the Commonwealth making life like human androids. People in the Big Empty splicing human, bugs and machines together. Scientists in San Fracisco with really advanced genetic engineering skills, GECKS! Cold Fusion.

Teleportation and Replicator technology. We are talking Star Trek level of Technology here. And you are seriously saying that this technology in the hands of people smart enough to figure it out, can't make things pre-war again?

Fantastic has ALOT of brains

There is a undercurrent to all factions that they can't reach it because of the nonrenewable resource issue. That base line effects all factions. Then there are issues with food and water which the NCR suffers from and can't solve. On the other hand the Legion faces internal and external political pressures that will make re industrilization impossible. In the end House probably comes closest though. So yes it's more than just that one statement. Also as far as tech advancements are concerned it's one thing to produce a teleporation device, mass producing it (something that can't happen) is another, short of a post scarcity machine which would then make the fallout series moot. It's not really Fallout if you can just produce unlimited everything is it?

Just admit it Falloutbob. Say " Yes Styles you are right. I FalloutBob made a topic that isn't up for debate. Anyone that tries to debate it will came to the same conclusion that you did right in the first post. That there is no debate, and this is just an 'everyone must agree with my findings opinion' topic."

You're always right, no exceptions.

Damn right I am.

In all seriousness, what was the point of even having "what are you views on this" knowing that any view that is different than FalloutBobs will be debated in endless circles. It will always circle back to "you need pre-war resources to have pre-war levels again."

So in short I was right in the very first post.

It's very much so debatable, all someone has to do is argue with the concept that House couldn't restore the Mojave. But to make this more interesting.,,,

Which Faction will come closet to a 2051 standard of living?

My money is on House

No because the topic is "No Faction" so the debate would be "yeah there could be a faction that can." So I was right.

NCR would be the closest to a 2051 standard of living.

Styles your acting like a child, anyone could easily make the argument that renewable resources, if enough research was spent, could replace the nonrenewable ones lost. In fact I remember you making those arguments, barely. And no the NCR will be far from reaching that goal at least for the average person. Life in San Francisco, Vault City or Shady Sands will probably be better than New Vegas but we're talking about on a nation wide level. Nationally higher prices for water, food along with less land for everyone will lead to an overall decline in standard of living. The remaining urban dwellers and the few barons will probably be some of the richest people on the face of the earth but the masses will be landless and probably serfs. Ask yourself how did the Brahmin Barons come into being?