So, until further proven, as it stands in the series. The Enclave is for all intents and purposes dead and gone. And since the Enclave were the official government of the US, is it fair to say the US government is gone?

I know it's an odd question, but I couldnt help but ask how others feel about this.

Well technically no, if the Enclave still exists as an organisation and some kind of line-of-succession has allowed a new President to take charge then it can't be dead; I'm just going to wait for someone to say it still lives in in spirit or such with the NCR.

Technically the United States government is clearly defined the by US Constitution.

Since the Enclave do not abide by the Constitution they are not the "Official" US Government.

They're claim to be follows, as I understand it, from them being the descendants of pre-war government officials (and other like corporate executives). That in no way makes them an official government in the sense of the Constitution.

This is not a Enclave vs Brotherhood debate. Just a definition of official. Unless someone wants to defined the "official government" as something other than the Constitution. In which case you can just as easily say that the Republic of Dave is the official government.

Why is the Enclave un-constitutional? Not arguing, merely asking; the American government is a complex thing.

I think alot of it is the way they saee Wastelanders as mutants, and not as American as a 'pure blood'. I mean, Richardson and Eden wanted to destroy them all so 'America can retake its rightful place'. While those two dont reflect individual mindets, they do represent the ideals of the president who will say what the Enclaves ideals are.

I wouldnt call the Enclave evil. I see them as akin to Caesars Legion, brutal and sorely misguided in their belief structure. It's hard to say how I see the Enclave, as it's a very complex opinion.

Well it's a double-edged sword I always thought; one the one hand, if the wastelanders are Americans because they are born in the US, doesn't that mean that the Enclave must be legitimate, otherwise they US as a country and therefore citizenship wouldn't exist.

Does the Enclave have the constitutionally legal authority to say who is and who is not a citizen? If so then they don't consider the wasters citizens and therefore do not breach the constitution; then again I don't know what technically constitutes one as an American citizen.

Well, based on what I found on Wikipedia

'Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.'

Would indicate the Wastelanders born on American soil are by constitution American Citizens.

Keep in mind that the Enclave considers their territory to be the United States. They recognize that the rest of the former U.S. is not under their control at the moment. Their mission is to regain control of the continental United States and therefore they view the wastelanders and others more as subjects of a nation to be conquered rather than U.S. citizens. The consitution and rights listed under it wouldn't apply to them.

They are also the legitimate U.S. government in the Fallout universe, that fact is almost indisputable.

So unless the Enclave officially recognise that the mainland is not US Soil they are un-constitutional... could they're not be some law to bypass this as the Enclave Patrolmen definately refer to wasters as Illegal Aliens, that being the correct term I believe.

Navarro is a special case, I think they saw that small surrounding as 'Property of the United States Government'

And I'm sure the Presidents between 2077 to Fallout 2 (To lazy to go look it up at the moment) instituted some law so they could follow the constitution without paying the liberal "BUT THEY ARE OUR PEOPLE TOO!" people in the Enclave any mind.

As long as Wastelanders are 'people' then yes.

The debate is moot though. The US government, in order to be considered the 'legitimate' US government, needs to hold a census of its citizenry and vote on the President every four years. That is a gross oversimplification, but its the basic reason the Enclave isn't the legitimate US government.

Enclave elections did take place, IIRC, but it seems that only Enclave members got to vote, which makes the elections illegitimate.

Also, the US is federal system - the federal 'government' exists on consent of the individual states. With the states dissolved, the federal government loses all legitimacy.

I would suspect that the Enclave may have re-written or amended the US Constitution in some way to reflect the new world order, but as far as I know cannon doesn't elaborate on that. Before the Great War it seems that the whole federalist system fractured, and the states as we know them ceased to be - check the "US" Flags.

Exactly I believe it is a moot-point too, we will probably never know whether they bothered to leave themselves legal loopholes, it's not that it would matter to them anyway the plan wasn't always to poison the world, they only came with that after they saw the state of the mainland around 2170's; then they decided to scrap the whole shabang and start again. So again I am undecided maybe they did rewrite it in preparation for re-organising the mainland or maybe they did not as if they didn't plan to kill everyone why should they have had need too?

The issue I take with that though is that we can not look at the Enclave through the lens of what we know today as the American Government. Contrary to what people often believe, the Consitution is not an infalliable document that sets the actions of the government in stone. In reality the consitution has quite a bit of flexibility when it comes to what the United States government can and can't do. Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War suspended the right to habeas corpus. Something that the consitution itself explicitly restricts, but due to the extreme cicumstances of the time and the use of the emergency powers of the President, Lincoln was able to do this. The Enclave and thus the United States is in a much worse state than during the civil war, COG (Continutiy of Government) is enacted and emergency powers have been delegated to the President. The primary goal of the United States at this point would be (as it would be in real life) its survival, self preservation has kicked in. This is partly the reason why Eden has become president and why elections during his term have been suspended.

If the United States government in real life would find the need to enact COG procedures (aka nuclear holocaust senario). Then we would find that the U.S. government during the period of crisis would be very different from what we once knew. This is also one of the reasons why COG plans have been a source of controversy in America (which I find the arguements against it to be foolish).

You miss the mark.

I'm not talking about the infallibility of the Constitution. Abraham Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus and the Supreme Court told him that was against the constitution in 1861 - google Ex Parte Merryman. Lincoln ignored the Supreme Court's decision until the after the war had ended. No one gave him 'authority' to do what he did - he just acted as he saw fit.

During national emergencies, Presidents often act in ways the Court later finds to be unconstitutional. Google Youngstown Sheet and Tube.

The point is that with the states wiped out, along with the Supreme Court, and most of the legislature, the government, as we know it ceases to be.

The government that's left isn't legitimate in the sense that it isn't a continuity to our system of government - its not a representative democracy - so its a new entity that has no greater claim to the US than the BoS, or the NCR, or anyone else, up until new free and fair elections are held.

Yes. That is true. The supreme court did rule against him, and they also ruled against Andrew Jackson during the Indian removal controversy (""John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!"). My point to make though was that presidents often have more power (whether others want to recognize it or not) than what we often assume (he fact that both those Presidents were able to complete their orders tells quite a bit). I'm also not sure what Linclon's motivations were for the suspension (in terms of reasoning it) but its safe to assume that he must have at least considered the "emergency powers" clause when he made his decision.



I agree with that. I was making a case for the Enclave to have legitimacy in the fallout universe. The United States government pre-war was already very different from what we know today. But I also think that in a holocaust senario (in real life) it would be very different as well.



Very true. But that is again looking at the picture from our current perspective. The Enclave is legitimate in terms of the fact that it is a continuity of the Fallout universe's American system of Goverment. Its very hard (nigh impossible) to make a case for the Enclave to be considered by the American people today as the legitimate government.


Anyway excellent points Surfer :foodndrink: You articulated your arguement very well.

Aw, thank's Andronicus. You're not too shabby yourself.

F03 defenders like us should stick togther anyway. . .:laugh:

indeed. :toughninja:

Off Topic: What I don't understand is the people who claim other organizations have a right to be on this soil when they don't. If Indiana was to decide to threw voting that we wanted to be a monarchy, and started putting pieces together to make it happen do you think the US Government would not go WTH, and then curbstomp us?

Also a lot of people seem to over look the fact that in the early part of the 20th century felt Eugenics was okay, and laws where being past where the mentally, and criminally unstable people where having there tubes tied so they could not produce offspring. Do you really think if there as a mutant outbreak in a city it would not be isolated, quarantined, and possibly eradicated today? I feel the Enclave from there own viewpoint where justified in there actions even at there most extreme. We just play the game threw the eyes of the wrong side of the battle to see the 'why' of the other side.

On Topic: I really really really hope there is a confirmed base in Chicago in the next game, and we never ever get to go there. I am fine with fighting there scouts, but it would be a sad day to know that the United States government truly failed... in Fallout. I doubt we will ever see them as 'friendly' as we did in NV ever again, and they are destined to always be the threat of evil, and I understand this. It would just be bad to lose them completely.

In a post apocalyptic scenario, the old phrase "might makes right" is often true for the most part. Whichever organization has enough power makes the rules. The Enclave claims to be the legitimate government at this point, but what can they do? At this point a lot of people also really hate former government. They got involved in a war that caused the nuclear holocaust (Three Dog's bio mentions this as a reason why people hate them), they developed the Forced Evolutionary Virus, and they used the Vaults to perform cruel experiments on people. Then after the war the Enclave tries to kill everyone else.

Take a look at the largest and most powerful organizations in Fallout right now. The BoS has fought the Enclave several times. The NCR is similar to the old world but they have no ties to the old US government. Mr. House imagines a world under his control only. The Legion actively wants to destroy or alter anything that even resembles the old world. The US government in Fallout is deader than dead. They've dug up the corpse and burned it just to make sure.

Well if there weren't any remnants of the Enclave left then yes its is fair to say that any real part of the U.S. government is dead. Then again the NCR follow from what I have seen , a government somewhat close to what the U.S government used to be as long as you look at the governing of the original NCR and not the anywhere like Nevada wich could be considered a territory. Going back to the Enclave, they could be viewed as the actual legitimate U.S government as it was pre-war, because if I remember and heard this correctly, they were a shadow government that grew within the pre-war government.

Wow what I just typed make no sense to me.

And as your quote proves - the Consitution can be changed - Even Amendments.

My personal theory to the structure of the enclave looks like this (I have posted something similar in the past, so if this looks familiar, thats why). Please note this is a personal theory, and is not supported by any canon sources; however it is also not contradicted by any canon sources that I know of, and can explain a few holes.

The President is elected, as per the consittuion by the Electoral College. The states choose the electoral college.
The US senate is appointed again by the states, in recent times this is by vote, but traditionaly this was done by the states governments.

I believe that the Power of the states has been transfered to the commonweath "governors" via emergency legislation (such as your classic Enabling act). Such emergency legilsation isn't unprecedented even in the US - Abraham Lincoln for example suspended Habeus Corpus. I know in the UK provisions exist(ed) for local Authorities to assume the powers of central government should central government become unable to function after a nuclear war.

As such, I believe that the "True Power" of the Enclave is in a "Commonweath Council" - each member via emergency legislation passed before the bombs dropped in their respective commonweaths has the power of the states and commonweaths "For the duration of the emergency". They appoint the president (as per the consitution), and senators.

If the consitution doesn't work for them - they change it. 2/3rds of the states can porpose an amendment, and 3/4 are required to pass it. As such, the Enclave can pretty much do anything it likes and it can remain consitutional - as long as 3/4 of this council agree.

This explains why in this case, wastelanders can be stripped of US citizenship - the 14th amendment has been repealed.
It explains why Eden was president - The appropriate people did decide he should be president, just like he said - the Electoral college, as appointed by the "Commonwealth Council", elected him.

I have been in many debates about Enclave and if they were the Government. Case can be made that even though they were a secret shadow group and no one voted for them, by simply controlling the government they are the government. Since Enclave died three times now and are only remnants it stands to reason the USA government is dead. If they controlled no real part of America other then the Rig, Navarro and the Rock, how where they an active government of the whole united states?


IMO opinion the United States government died the moment the Enclave stepped out of the shadows and took control.

Without getting into detail, such things happen even today in the real world.

There were more bases even in 2242 than just Navarro and the Oil Rig.

Active bases or bases like the Rock?

Can you give me proof?