My theory I posted yesterday, you were one of the one's I had hoped had seen it.

Lol/.

You realise that its the Chosen one claiming to be from an outpost to the north and doesnt know where the capital is?

(Those files contain both the NPC's speech, and the Chosen's).

Of course I do, the technicians willingness to believe that there is not only an outpost but one that he also does not even know about is the issue.

To me that just suggests the the Enclave guy on the Radio is gullible. Thats when your in Vault 8 at and tap into the Enclave vault network right? That is just speculation, circumstantial at best. After all the Chosen One pulls that out of his butt.

exactly, If he can even consider the possiblity of another base, then it stands to reason that there must be at least some others besides The Rig and Navarro. I would think that an Enclave technician would realize something was up if it were for sure that there were no other bases.

The existence of the "Chicago Outposts" only adds credence to this theory. It means that other bases were occupied, at least for a time.

No it is from the Navarro Technicians, his willingness to believe the Chosen One suggests to me the existance of other outposts, he also says "I didn't know we had an outpost..." "an", ie, plural.

Which means presicely nothing. We have people today that believe all sorts of things that aren't true, or are willing to accept any almost plausable story told by a charasmatic individual.

This does not prove the existence of any active outpost, beyond the Oil Rig, and Navaro, during the Fallout 2 time period.

(Since when was An plural? An is just an indefinate Article used when the leading letter of the noun is a vowel).

Still comes off as speculation, circumstantial at best. That Tech could have wondered why the Enclave including Frank Horrigan were taking Vertibirds out along with alot of gaurds. Where were they going? Why they were going to Vault 13 and Meriposa.
Tech could have thought they were setting up other bases when really they were just going to the locations I mentioned.

Actually the more I think an "an"... fair enough. Still if the Enclave only had Navarro as their mainland outpost and some random private came up to him and said "I came from up north," I doubt he would just say, "Oh I didn't know we had an outpost up there." His complete acceptance of this surely must be worth something, besides it fills in some of the ridiculous increase in personnel between F2 and F3.

@Styles: some of these old quotes are the only evidence we have for such matters, I've read them all, every quote from all the Enclave personnel in Fallout 2.

So what would he say?

You have someone who as far as you can determine is a member of the enclave - you have no reason to suspect him, if he wasn't in the enclave as far as your internal logic is concerned he wouldn't be there. He tells you he comes from up north - the logical conclusion, is to presume there is some facility up north - there must be for an enclave person to come from there.

I can only see two possible exceptions to this conclusion:
1: If the subject is Paranoid.
2: If the subject knows better (is deeply involved in top level planning or logistics).

Since this is just a generic tech, I think we can rule out 2.

He's a tech working as air traffic control and such in the Enclave's largest mainland base, all Vertibird travel passes through the Navarro. I suppose I can see your reasoning but I for one am willing to believe that they have other outposts nearby I'm not saying any such nonsense like they have a base full of people in-hibernation or whatever; on the contrary I believe it would help explain the large numbers in F3. AHS-9 mentions Enclave hidden bases:

{151}{}{The Enclave are a remnant of the past - a neurodyne that has yet to be aligned. They have hidden bases all over the shards of old California, and their strongest stronghold is off to the west, over the waters.}

And before you disregard him as being crazy or whatever he must get his knowledge of the Enclave from somewhere.

The Enclave where also seen in the Mojave Wasteland acording to one of the loading screen quotes, they even had a re-fueling outpost there, the birds re-fuel there and continue to where?

I still feel there are no more bases in the West. If so why did the Remnants not go there? If there were great chance NCR or BoS has hunted them down by now. No mention of these bases in FO3 or New Vegas. They are only there as talk from techs which could have confused troop movements on the main land for base building.

Chicago base most likely would have been set up on the way to DC.

Look, I personally believe that more than one base is likely - but there is no proof here. All Enclave traffic that he knows about - if somethings heading north it may not enter his FIR/MATZ. In addition he doesn't know whats in the aircraft, nor does he know its mission - he only knows as much about the aircraft's flight plan as he needs to know, where its entering his zone, and where its exiting.

He's a non enclave member who's gained his information from hearsay.

The Refuling base was constructed pre war in anticipation that their decendants would need to get around the continent generally.

How would they know that they would be using vertibirds? The base is specifically designed to be a vertibird refueling base. The vertibird wasn't developed until after the Great War.

I recommend a visit to the Museum of Technology in DC.

I also doubt that a VTOL base wouldn't be usable by other, more primative, VTOL aircraft. We don't have places that only a Harrier, but not a helicopter, could land - flat land is flat land.

Well AHS-9 and the Shi and the Brotherhood still get their infomation from somewhere is all I'm saying, of course it was built pre-war but the Enclave still used to refuel and from there go where? I suppose they could just refuel there to get back from Navarro.

I will read more quotes and try and build a stronger case, there has to be some arguement I can make, of course it's all "speculation" but it's all based on in-game fact and such, a lot of what people discuss must be speculation surely, every Enclave topic on here has been.

Bear in mind that the Enclave did have that master plan of theirs....


Bear in mind this is an old argument that most of us had about a decade ago.

The Enclave is dead! That doesn't mean that there is no government. The Enclave stopped being the government when the bombs fell. Probably a few years before that. The country still has the NCR and the Lyons BrotherHood of Steel! I feel that the Brotherhood would be best because they are heros & aren't corrupt.

But none of those Factions are saying they are America.

The NCR and Lyons might as well be foriegn invaders. They are not the United States Government and have no basis for being so (nor do they claim to be).

The only legtimate "Americans" left are those that are still with the Enclave.

I actually respect them more for that. Do you know how rude it is when people say "God bless America?" That is an insult to the rest of the world because you think "& NO ONE ELSE."

A government is someone who protects their people & both the NCR and BOS are doing that..

The Enclave do infact refer to those outside them (in the proper Fallout anyway) as Illegal Aliens.

God Bless America

I don't see how thats rude. Its more of an invocation than anything. Same as "God Save the Queen". What God can't save the President?


no....a goverment is who holds the power in a country

Besides the debate is not whether there are other "governments" in the Fallout universe. Its whether the offical United States Government (The Enclave) is gone. (I don't think they are but meh..)

The main problem is we don't know what changes were made to the Constitution from the Divergence to 2077. Under the Constitution as it is today, the terms of the President, Vice-President, and cabinet officials expires four years after the Inauguration of the President. Around the same time the terms of the entire House and about a 1/3rd of the Senate expire. The President in 2077 would have been Elected (or Re-Elected) in 2076 and Inaugurated in January of 2077. His/her term would have expired at 1200 EST on January 20, 2081. Without elections for the House, open Senate Seats, and the Electors who cast thier ballots in the Electoral College for the President, control of the Federal Government would have fallen to the remaining Senators. The President Pro Tempore of the Senate...#3 in the line of succession...would be appointed President and would nominate a Vice-President as well as a cabinet, which his colleagues would approve or not. Of course, over the next four years the remaining Senator's terms would expire then there would be no legitimate Federal government until a Election could be held. The thing with the Commonwealths replacing the States may have been some Enclave maneuvering to create a Federal Government more workable with only a handful of voters.

Without some sort of electorate with at least a tenuous link to the populations of the pre-war States to elect legislators and the President the Enclave has no legitimacy at all as far as being the United States Government. They're basically high tech Tribals whose claim to be the de jure Federal Government is based wholly on thier descent from the last duly elected officeholders of the Republic, the last of whom...all Senators..had thier terms expire in 2083. America's been dead for a long time by 2277.

Exactly who holds the power. That means its ok to go against them because they aren't doing anything good.