Is it fair to say the United States government is truly dead : Fallout Series Discussion

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:48 pm

Exactly who holds the power. That means its ok to go against them because they aren't doing anything good.

I don't follow......

A government is who holds the authority in a country. Not who "does the best stuff" in it.

Anyone who opposes a government ("opposes" meaning "fights against") and is part of the country is technically a rebel. Those that are not apart of it and oppose the government are foreign invaders.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:45 pm

I actually respect them more for that. Do you know how rude it is when people say "God bless America?" That is an insult to the rest of the world because you think "& NO ONE ELSE."

Can't be any ruder than going onto a forum populated by residents of a certain country...dedicated to a game about that country..and whining because they don't subscribe to your Politically Correct views on what acceptable speech is.

» Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:05 am

Well, I would have to say yes. Agreeing with the whole constitution thing.
The enclave clearly does not abide to the 'rights of the people' which is what makes America what it is. Even the more morally correct side of them (Autumn) use water for extortion. Eden and Richardson do not view the wastelanders as American, but common sense tells you they are direct descendants of the Americans that lived 200 years ago, this is just simply not right. Also, with the Vault Experiments I'm sure that was against some sort of law America has, and they did that BEFORE the war.

I don't want this to be a flame bait. But the enclave, is not the American Government.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:22 pm

Well, I would have to say yes. Agreeing with the whole constitution thing.
The enclave clearly does not abide to the 'rights of the people' which is what makes America what it is. Even the more morally correct side of them (Autumn) use water for extortion. Eden and Richardson do not view the wastelanders as American, but common sense tells you they are direct descendants of the Americans that lived 200 years ago, this is just simply not right. Also, with the Vault Experiments I'm sure that was against some sort of law America has, and they did that BEFORE the war.

I don't want this to be a flame bait. But the enclave, is not the American Government.

So what you are saying is that the Enclave can't be the American Government because America is infallible?

I seem to recall America doing some pretty bad stuff when the times called for it (or when we thought they did)....especially against people who were not "citizens".

(Note: I am American)

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:30 pm

We have evolved since then.
I see the enclave like tortimer. Even though the white glove society had moved on from the disgusting, and morally wrong things that they used to do. He was like, nahh those were good times! Lets go back, forcefully. With power arm- Sorry wrong group.

Much like the Enclave, I am saying they arent America because they werent ACTUALLY part of the government as far as I know. They were an organization, whether they had 'ties' to the government or not, it is purely self proclaimed that they are the American government. Forming your chain of command around the government, using propaganda and a similar flag does not make you America. It makes you a copycat

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:03 pm

We have evolved since then.

Have we? Was not that long ago that we fire-bombed Dresden. There is still a major controversy going on today over Gauntanamo. Not saying I don't support our Nation or what our government does, I'm just saying that people need to get past the idea that America is incapable of doing wrong.

but enough of politics, lets keep this within the realm of Fallout.

Much like the Enclave, I am saying they arent America because they werent ACTUALLY part of the government as far as I know. They were an organization, whether they had 'ties' to the government or not, it is purely self proclaimed that they are the American government. Forming your chain of command around the government, using propaganda and a similar flag does not make you America. It makes you a copycat

They weren't actually apart of the government but the President of the United States went to the Oil Rig before the great war? Even when the senate apparently did as well?

Even if we assume that the Enclave was a seperate organization from the government of the United States, it seems pretty clear that they were the ones in power, and thus this argument falls into play:

But now on to your subject about where a government derives its legitimacy from. As an American, I know that we have the idea that a "governments power and legitimacy is rooted in the consent of the people." (Social Contract Theory, John Locke) The problem with that idea is that it is a "relatively" (and I stress relatively) new concept (yes a form of this was used by the Greeks and Romans but they both soon fell into monarchies anyway so...). For most of history, governments did not need the "consent of the people" they only needed the power and authority to enforce their will. What you defined is the "American/British" definition of the word "government" (British/American when it was first developed anyway), but in reality, no matter what definition you go off of, the people in power are "the government" de facto. Dictators do not need the consent of people voting but they are "the governent".

Even if the officials in "the Enclave" were not voted in. They are still the government, because in reality, governments do not need the consent of the people, there isn't some "outside" power that says "HEY! YOU NOT LETTING PEOPLE VOTE, YOU NOT GOVERNMENT!" If an organization takes power and hold the real authority and makes the decisions in the country, it is the government. Period, no matter what anyone says.

If America were to descend into a monachy today, would the King of America be our government and head of the country? Yep. Even if he didn't let us vote? Most certainly. All hail his majesty.

The Enclave didn't just say "HEY WE'S AMERICA NOW GUYZZ!" and then make up a "cool" new flag and such. They are the continuation of the Fallout American Government, which was already very different from our modern day government pre-war. The problem is that people are looking at the Enclave through the lenses of "present day" glasses.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:33 pm

I can understand where you are coming from, and I respect your opinion.
Though they do not per say have 'power'
The way that you put it the NCR is more of a government, atleast that have distinct, and DEFINED territory, not just "We are america, enclave has dominion"

Furthermore, this is about the pre war united states goverment. As we knew it, it is gone, there are no real cities, there aren't elections, mayors, or a distinct relationship and law system among any of the post war settlements.

Enclave? You can argue that they, being the descendants, are the Government. But if it a goverment is in power, this just not so, they do not have the manpower to ordinate the entire wasteland, and they do not have a defined amount of territory. They hid themselves in vaults for the war, then came out and guess what? Everyone didn't die, there are still people. The people may not choose the government but I am pretty sure if the Enclave were the government it would not be so clearly opposed, and they would still 'be in power'

And its been 200 years now, just because they are 'descendants' does not make them the government, this is not a monarchy. For gods sake, they had/have a machine as their leader. They let themselves be controlled by a non sentient being. I don't care how good the programming is, this is not a government in my eyes.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:16 am

I can understand where you are coming from, and I respect your opinion.
Though they do not per say have 'power'
The way that you put it the NCR is more of a government, atleast that have distinct, and DEFINED territory, not just "We are america, enclave has dominion"

I never said they weren't, they are indeed a government, just not the official American one.

Furthermore, this is about the pre war united states goverment. As we knew it, it is gone, there are no real cities, there aren't elections, mayors, or a distinct relationship and law system among any of the post war settlements

They are still the remnants of the pre-war government. It seems to me that the Enclave operates in a similar fashion to the Pre-war united States. (During Fallout 2 there were elections, During Fallout 3 COG procedures have been enacted)

Enclave? You can argue that they, being the descendants, are the Government. But if it a goverment is in power, this just not so, they do not have the manpower to ordinate the entire wasteland, and they do not have a defined amount of territory. They hid themselves in vaults for the war, then came out and guess what? Everyone didn't die, there are still people. The people may not choose the government but I am pretty sure if the Enclave were the government it would not be so clearly opposed, and they would still 'be in power'

ahh but that is exactly the point. The Enclave only see the territory they occupy as "America". So they do have control over "American" territory. They see the rest of the wasteland as "former" U.S. territory that needs to be retaken.

The people may not choose the government but I am pretty sure if the Enclave were the government it would not be so clearly opposed, and they would still 'be in power.

If America today was just left to run wild and the government retreated to a off-shore location, and then came back about 160-200 years later, and in the meantime the country had spilt into different new nations and factions, do you think the people would be quick to just bow their heads to the official American government that hasn't been seen in 200 years? Thats basically what the Enclave is facing at the moment.

» Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:06 am

Well, what I mean is that they have lost power. They do not control nearly any landmass, anywhere. The fact that everything they do has to be imputted by force I think does not make them 'governors' just enforcers, dictators, they dictate and enforce their will with their advanced technology.
A government by definition is....

? the organization, machinery, or agency through which a political unit exercises its authority, controls and administers public policy, and directs and controls the actions of its members or subjects.

There you go, the Enclave soldiers are 'a' government, I do not see anything other than their self proclaimed rights to america, the propaganda saying they are the president, and all that nonsense proving they are the American Government,
I don't care if the real government had children, the children were not voted in, no democracy.

Thats what america is all about in my eyes. Enclave, is not, the USA.

» Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:55 am

@Andronicus: ROFL I thought you were some guy from sa-mp from romania

guess there's more people with that name

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:18 pm

Well, what I mean is that they have lost power. They do not control nearly any landmass, anywhere. The fact that everything they do has to be imputted by force I think does not make them 'governors' just enforcers, dictators, they dictate and enforce their will with their advanced technology.
A government by definition is....

? the organization, machinery, or agency through which a political unit exercises its authority, controls and administers public policy, and directs and controls the actions of its members or subjects.

There you go, the Enclave soldiers are 'a' government, I do not see anything other than their self proclaimed rights to america, the propaganda saying they are the president, and all that nonsense proving they are the American Government,
I don't care if the real government had children, the children were not voted in, no democracy.

Thats what america is all about in my eyes. Enclave, is not, the USA.

The term I think you're looking for is "Government in Exile".

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:47 am

There you go, the Enclave soldiers are 'a' government, I do not see anything other than their self proclaimed rights to america, the propaganda saying they are the president, and all that nonsense proving they are the American Government,
I don't care if the real government had children, the children were not voted in, no democracy.

Thats what america is all about in my eyes. Enclave, is not, the USA.

The Enclave is not the USA that we know today (in real life) and if they were a poltical party they would be hard pressed to get elected. That does not mean that they are not the United States we know in the Fallout universe. I've already explained what really should be considered the American government and its not who people vote in (although thats how people would support it) its who has the real power in a country.

The United States has lost all of its territories and only what the Enclave occupies is left. Nothing else is "America" anymore. The Enclave holds sovereign control over the remaining "American" land. Therefore they are the United States Government. The rest of the former US is under the control of the NCR or the Brotherhood of Steel or whoever and they are not America(n). Look up the term "enclave", its a "country within a country". The United States (The Enclave) is now a country within a "whole lotta something else" (technical term for the wasteland).

I also don't see how they are "self-proclaimed", the President and other high-ranking officials went to the Oil Rig, the government of America went to the Oil Rig when the bombs fell.

Anywho I don't see this argument going anywhere so we should probably call a truce and leave it at that.

» Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:57 am

The term I think you're looking for is "Government in Exile".

It's been 200 years though, the actual government already died. Wouldn't they just be the descendants of the exiled government?

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:41 pm

I think we should leave it at this.

They should simply be considered a post war attempt at civilization. The idea of them being the US government I don't think is entirely plausible, the US has a lot of Governments now, Enclave is somehow at the bottom of the food chain. NCR seems a lot like it to me, they form a little country, then slowly usurp people into their union. Ring any bells?

I just don't like people saying the Enclave is the US Government, although they have very strong connections to it, they have little to no ACTUAL power over the people, just where-ever they decide to send some of their tin cans. Not to mention at this point they are more or less, dead.

I mean seriously, Fallout 1, 2, and 3, you seriously f--- up the Enclave, in NV they are nothing but a memory.

Enclave is basically gone as far as we know, until games in other regions shows up. They might as well be labelled dead.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:54 pm

It's been 200 years though, the actual government already died. Wouldn't they just be the descendants of the exiled government?

Real governments in exile have existed for decades after they're ejected from their homeland and the faces at the top have changed... Can't see any reason why the Enclave couldnt be considered a government in exile, at least in the FO1/2 era.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:49 pm

I just don't like people saying the Enclave is the US Government, although they have very strong connections to it, they have little to no ACTUAL power over the people, just where-ever they decide to send some of their tin cans. Not to mention at this point they are more or less, dead.

They have ACTUAL power over the AMERICAN people. Folks in the NCR and elsewhere in the wasteland aren't American citizens and are no longer a part of America. They do not describe themselves as Americans do they?

You are still treating the former United States as if it should still be considered the United States. Only territory occupied by the Enclave should be considered part of the United States now. The rest is "something else".

In any case, the Enclave is the American government in the Fallout universe. Its just that if you were to go into the Fallout universe, you (as in you yourself) wouldn't want to call yourself an American because the Fallout's America is very different from what you are used to.

I would still be happy to.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:00 pm

Well, the way I see it. The 'USA' is no more, I think its fairer to both sides if you say the Enclave is what the USA devolved into, or what's left of the USA.
When you say USA, most people will see it as the United States, geographically as it is now. Enclave is not the USA, USA does not exist.

But I think everyone in the wasteland is an american. Just like I am, my parents were from america, and they had me.

Just like all those pre war people, they had children who lived through the war, so on, and so on. Just because its been 200 years of generations, does not make them any less americans.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:40 pm

But I think everyone in the wasteland is an american. Just like I am, my parents were from america, and they had me.

Just like all those pre war people, they had children who lived through the war, so on, and so on. Just because its been 200 years of generations, does not make them any less americans.

It does when they join up with other factions and form new governments (the NCR). Being an "American" is not hereditary. You are American if you are born in the United States or have been naturalized a citizen, none of the wastelanders were.

Well, the way I see it. The 'USA' is no more, I think its fairer to both sides if you say the Enclave is what the USA devolved into, or what's left of the USA.
When you say USA, most people will see it as the United States, geographically as it is now. Enclave is not the USA, USA does not exist.

~~I don't see why they would associate an organization that is in a game with the real life United States.......~~ misread that

Yes they would associate it with what it is geographically today, but they shouldn't and thats my point (real life gamers I mean, not in-game wastelanders). The Enclave does not see the wastelanders as American citizens and the wastelanders do not call themselves American citizens.

Fallout is an alternate history of the United States and of the world. The USA does exist in the Fallout universe but its just not what you want it to be (or what we are used to). So you personally wouldn't want to be an American in Fallout. You would want to be a citizen of the NCR.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:24 pm

Well, weren't you the one to say that I was viewing the USA too much like the old world? I view being an American as hereditary, and I think in ancient times they didnt have citizenship. Not like the Enclave soldiers were either aswell.

Most people do not distinct them with a very fine line. Pre war is basically the same despite technological advances. And even in the Fallout Universe the USA was as it is now. Geographically, including canada technically.

But what I am getting at, is that Enclave? They don't have states, they don't have land, they have their word against ours. They say they are america, well thats good for you? You are a bunch of soldiers hiding in underground caves, only showing yourself to kill people. The enclave, has almost no territory as far as I know, they are not the 'united states of america' they are the Enclave, the descendants of the 'united states of america'

I hope you see where I am coming from.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:25 pm

Well, weren't you the one to say that I was viewing the USA too much like the old world? I view being an American as hereditary, and I think in ancient times they didnt have citizenship. Not like the Enclave soldiers were either aswell.

The concept of citizenship is not a new idea. If you were born in a country and swore fealty to the ruling faction then you were a member of that nation, a citizen. You are confusing citizenship for "ethinicity".

A person for instance can be "germanic" but not a citizen of the state of germany. "American" is not an ethnic group, you are only American if you are a citizen of the U.S.

I hope you see where I am coming from.

Not really...

Even if the Enclave has no territory now. They did at one time (Oil Rig, Navarro, Chicago Outposts, Raven Rock, AAFB) and those locations were sovereign united states soil. If the Enclave no longer exists now then you are right, America is gone.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:57 pm

USA, is not a land mass. It is not an entity, it is a political party. The enclave tried to usurp that status for approval and pride. You can CLAIM to be the USA, but unless you follow its rules, and its ethics. You are just a deformity, or a digression from the real thing. THATS what the Enclave is.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:35 pm

USA, is not a land mass. It is not an entity, it is a political party. The enclave tried to usurp that status for approval and pride. You can CLAIM to be the USA, but unless you follow its rules, and its ethics. You are just a deformity, or a digression from the real thing. THATS what the Enclave is.

The USA is whatever the person in charge of it (the government) says it is. If America became a monarchy then the "United States" would be a kingdom. Thats how it is. The land that the United States controls is the land under its power and what is recognized as its soveriegn territory. I never said it was a geographical feature. if the United States government went to Alaska today and then declared the rest of the continental United States "Not the United States" then only Alaska would be part of the US, the rest would be "something else".

The United States is an entity because countries are "political entities".

It is not a political party. The Democrats and the Republicans are political parties.

Have you read into what the pre-war U.S. was like? If not you need to. I think you will find that the American government then is not that different from the government in fallout 2 and 3 (the Enclave)

» Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:10 am

None the less, I think that, although it is 'partially' correct, it is misleading to call them the USA, not to mention it isn't entirely true, since obviously people will relate to our USA, or even the Pre War Fallout USA

Thats why I think they shouldn't be considered USA.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:38 pm

None the less, I think that, although it is 'partially' correct, it is misleading to call them the USA, not to mention it isn't entirely true, since obviously people will relate to our USA, or even the Pre War Fallout USA

They shouldn't relate them to the current United States government because they are simply not the same. If they can't tell the difference between an in-game government and a real government then a touch of reality is in order.

They should relate them to the in-game pre-war United States government because they are the same.

Again you are acting as if the United States is somehow incapable of doing "bad things" (which I don't think the Enclave are doing but lets not get into that), that its somehow wrong and against nature to associate something so evil (which the Enclave is in your opinion) with our country. I don't think it is. Mainly because I don't see the Enclave as evil, I see them as a force for good, a people willing to do whats necessary to restore the pre-war United States.

The United States is not a saint (metaphorically) it is capable of and has done some pretty "bad" things. Many would say that it is still doing some.

» Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:11 pm

Well I think you expect too much of people to put such a defining line in canon. Not everyone cares, which is why Fallout 3 was so popular. If everyone was a hardcoe vet canon/lore lover like you and me. Everyone would have been pissed off, but lets not get into that.

I just think that its simply not true. There are definitely some similarities, and some strong connections, but it is simply not the same thing. And the moment you say USA, all people think about is USA, not enclave usa. USA, it will confuse most people, and I just generally don't see them as the same thing.