Seriously? Did you called NV a piece of trash? Just because it doesn't have this "oooh visceral experience I can wander endlessly" does not make it any LESS of an RPG. There is a reason why games such as Baldur's Gate were praised.
Back in my old coot days, I remember that games such as Dungeon Master or Wizardry WERE also considered RPGs too. :spotted owl:

I am not sitting on a high horse or something, but I prefer role-playing games that are more plausible and thoughtful. I won't look away from crappy dialogues or story-filled plotholes just because it has the ooooh and aaah cool factor of boxsand.

Did you really compared OUTCASTS to Mr. House? You are comparing a MINOR faction that wasn't important to the story(until Anchorage, which was an OPTIONAL DLC) to a person that pretty much is mentioned quite a lot in the whole game?

And do Outcasts have their own ending? Can you get quests from them apart from the "give me this, I'll give you that" and Op. Anchorage? Can you actually SIDE with them too?
Just because they have patrols sandboxing around random areas does NOT make House's faction any less fleshed out.

And what is the Talon company, which pretty much makes up half of the wasteland population, doing in there? Why it seems that their only goal is to shoot everybody and everything?
Why it is like 200 years after the war, yet the west coast feels like it was just 10 years ago when the bombs hit?
What about Little Lamplight? It's filled with more and more children yet there is no apparent way of creating more of them in there.
How did the Enclave get in the Vault 87?
Why does nobody want to use the GECK in the way it means be used? Vault City anyone?

Also, anothet thing I hated was the imbalanced game mechanics. Along with the ridiculous bobblehead boosts you can easily max out everything and become a Oblivion-like god character. Now add the perks that are straight bonuses without any downsides. Where is the challenge in there?

NV at least shows how it should be done. It's called a HARSH wasteland(harsh meaning dangerous wildlife and foes, not endless tourism or safari across the desolate green-tinted ruins with ilogically placed cannon fodders running around) for a reason.
You have to specialize(IMO that adds more replay value for me) and you simply can't grind your way towards the strip without getting your [censored] kicked by the local wildlife. No weapon heckling of a super mutant with 10MM SMG on Lvl 2 like in F3.

i think fallout 3 was the best becuase there was a set story line and a clear line between good and evil, in this however every ending has some good and some evil which annoys me and there is too many endings which makes it hard to play through the game. also fallout 3 had a reason for not carrying on after the ending - you die. but in new vegas there is no reason for you not to continue, i realy hope they bring out DLC that lets you continue the story.

Hmm, well, I actually find the story of NV more complex, realistic and plausible. I got so tired of the usual simplistic fantasy cliché Good'n'Evil. While NV's story is not exactly on par with The Witcher(another great RPG IMO), it's certainly a BIG improvement over F3. :shrug:

Fallout: New Vegas was a game that should have been technically better but felt lacking despite it's improvements over Fallout 3, which seemed a more enjoyable experience despite it's flaws. I made an attempt to replay NV last night and had shut the game down within an hour. I just can't seem to be as enthralled.

*nearly die. You just end up in a coma for a few weeks...

I know what u mean. I feel the same way, i think its jus the atmosphere in FO3 comepared to FONV. also i think its all the bugs thats holding NV back aswell

Guys, guys, guys, either we stop the aggressiveness or I'll just ask a moderator to close the thread. This was supposed to be about the differences and which people preferred, not what game is 'trash' and which is 'leet'.

I want to start of saying I am not going to claim you to be an elitest so be as harsh in tone as you like, its your opinion and I respect that.

second of all I was comparing New Vegas as something that could be amazing and presented as amazing and then was lacking in a lot of areas and led to eventually disappointment. the garbage comparison was to the DLC as if you through garbage in a broken down mansion or house, you are just adding more to clean up.

As for the Outcast Comparison? it was darn justified, in fact I feel like I am insulting them by comparing them to Mr.House in importance. When I got back from upgrading the robots Mr.House was still talking to me like I was gofer and would show me no respect and acted like I was idiot because I had a question. I basically said well enoughs a enough and took him out, that was it. That was Mr.Houses role, never did I feel his cyber presecence again on the strip. Yeah the securitrons but they aren't soldiers, they aren't as interesting as the Outcasts and you may laugh at me for this but their armor isn't as cool. I played for Mr.House later in the game but he had nothing interesting about him, no mystery at all. He didn't have a hidden chamber or goal or secret documents that he didn't want anyone to know about. He was just a bussinessman, in it for money and power and had no respect for anyone. The Outcasts had a least a little substance to them and were a somehwat gray perspective.

I think it is more rewarding working with the Outcasts in 3 then it is with House in NV. The Chinese Stealth Armor alone is worth more then all the caps and insults in the world.

The West coast developed differently I guess then the East. I doubt Mankind would be forming armies 200 years after a nuclear war and whole countries unless the Vault people taught them too. Only 1 vault in the East worked successfully, Vault 101 and even then it wasn't supposed to work for that purpose.

The challenge in Fallout 3 was the exploration. I died quite a few times in Fallout 3 and I can tell you it wasnt because of high level monsters or bullet absorbtion, it was because I would walk into a situation unprepared to face something I didn't know. A mine could be on the floor, a super mutant hiding may have a missle launcher, I may knock something over while I sneak and someone is alerted and the whole area hunts me down and kills me, I could turn the hill and an Enclave station is there and starts shooting me and kills me, I could get involved in a random encounter that sees me dead, once 2 deathclaws spawned beside me near the beginning of the game and I managed to kill them both with VATS, quick thinking and using up all 5 or 6 of my stimpacks. If this happened in New Vegas I would have been dead pure and simple. When I first started New Vegas a Giant radscorpian spawned in goodsprings and killed 4 NPCs and me, the second time around I unloaded everything and jumped around and I managed to kill it with me being almost dead and 1 dead NPC. The 2 deathclaws were only slightly harder then the radscorpian and for a random spawn it was unfair because if I didnt have the Classic pack I would have died or half the town would be dead.

New Vegas felt like a Safari to me, it felt like you were being lead along a path to see the wonders of New Vegas. If you went off the path you risk endangering your life, Fallout 3 felt more open to do what you want to do. If I want a tour guide id spend my money on one and not a game.

I felt New Vegas forced you to grind to be strong enough, but more like grinding in pointless quests then creatures. The specialization was on Explosives, Sniper or Unarmed, try anything else before 25 and you will struggle. I made a melee character who is struggling at level 17, I made a level 13 Unarmed character and she killed most people with relative ease ( I even teamed up with boone and killed the Tops off for fun without saving and it wass sad). My main character who is level 25 had the hardest time doing anything with any Guns as he is a Guns character, but then I started Sniping random NCR bases and was having fun and killing with relative ease. The games shouldn't be like that, that with some builds and weapons you limit your character's capabilities in interacting with the world. Also I hate New Vegas armor and I am a big fan of wearing civilian clothes and suits, which because of the laws of weapon penetration means I suffer more damage without armor then I did in Fallout 3 and their armor beefs them up to high health. I find it easier to kill a Super Mutant Master in Fallout 3 then a NCR ranger, simply because I can't find a decent gun to kill the NCR with that isn't a sniper. When I used Sniper they got destroyed easily with AP rounds and were a joke. This is a flaw in the game in my opinion, Snipers and Powerfists shouldn't replace Assault Rifles and Swords, it turns the game into one from being immersed in the fallout universe to one of trying to beat the armor of your enemies. Bullets flying everywhere and improvised melee weapons is post-apocalpytic, Power fists and Snipers is Urban Warfare (with snipers being adaptable to any warfare situation). In the first game Snipers were there to help you get the first shot or reach a distanced foe with the scope. In New Vegas it is literally a staple weapon, for any Guns character.

We are just a couple of men have a discussion on video games we prefer, no need to get the authorities. I don't feel any aggression just determination and dedication to making of points, you wanted a discussion on Fallout 3 and New Vegas and now we are getting one. I came in here expecting walls of posts defending both sides expecting a good hour of mine would be lost reading these novels of opinion and was disappointed that mostly paragraphs were made for each side. So I volunteered my services and spent much time making legitimate issues I had with the game of New Vegas and being harsh about it. Of course others responded to it with their own walls of text and the discussion was born. Now this thread is something worth debating about, and I thank others for their contributions, please carry on fellows.

Wheh, now that's a wall-o-text I know I like.



Indeed, that's why I find factions in NV more interesting and plausible-realistic. You can't expect to have every single person hippie kissing your ass(I don't call that substance) after doing few errands for them. Mr. House was a perfect example of a cold, calculating business man who owes you nothing. :mohawk:




I honestly don't get your comparsion. Are you saying that having "easier encounters" in F3 means they are better? Then I would take quality over quantity, thank you very much..
Most of these "surprise buttsecks!" Deathclaw ambushes were destroyed for me the moment when I could easily . Yes, Deathclaws. Where is a fun in that? Why does "challenge" and "fun" has to be regarded as mutually exclusive? :shrug:
Beating a formidable foe is much more rewarding(ahem, for me) than repeatedly squishing a bunch of insects saying "whew, they jumped off the floor Dabiv Blaine trapdoor style! awsum!"



Uh? They are supposed to be elite forces. I honestly didn't had any problems killing them. Granted, I play on Normal, hardcoe, so there may be some differences. Heck I even remember that the first time I got that awesome looking armor was when I crit-sliced a Ranger to death with my Knock-Knock Fire axe.



Why not? Since F1 there was a damage threshold, you needed the adequate ammo and equipment to punch through a power armor(or just shoot 'em in the eyes. Or groin ), you couldn't just go Call of Duty on every foe, hoping you would heckle them to death. Armor is there for a reason, not because it offers "slighty better protection but worse looks" when compared to simple clothes you like to wear. :huh:

Yeah but Mr.House didn't hold all the aces, I don't know about you but I found him easier to kill then a generic NPC, I my as well have pressed a button. He shouldn't be so mouthy when he is in a situation like that. plus its not that hes kissing your ass, I am not saying they should be as nice as your dad was in F3 but at least like thanks for the help and "since you an I are bussiness partners, I will share information with you" but no he treats it like as if I am asking him whats 1 +1 when I ask him about why defending the president is more important then killing him. Most of the factions in new vegas are walled down to certain areas where as in Fallout 3 you found them throughout the wasteland. I remember there being Legion ambushes and NCR patrols in the southeast but other then that I rarely see them elsewhere. In Fallout 3 I could expect to find brotherhood throughout the wasteland as well as Enclave and Super Mutants and raiders, it seemed more natural that they wouldnt be stuck in one place or area and thats it, they have a whole wasteland they want to salvage.

Not easier encounters but that the encounters in Fallout 3 were both more interesting and were manageable. In New Vegas if a Giant Scorpion spawns at level 2 in Goodsprings it is much more an issue in Fallout New Vegas then if a Giant scorpian spawned outside of Megaton in Fallout 3 because of the mechanics. The surprise aspect of the Fallout 3 encounters and the fact that dying in the game because of randomly encountering a deathclaw (or HAVING to get by 7 of them if u want to do a main quest) is not fair to the gamer. As for the formidable foe thing, I like a challenge too but sometimes I'd rather beat the challenge through smarts or thinking then "my gun beats your armor ha ha" or in many cases losing because my gun wasn't big enough for his armor. I don't mind not being able to kill a Super Mutant Behemoth with a 10 mm, (understandable) but when a missle is shot at him and it only takes off 1 point of his diplay health bar I'd be annoyed. Now that isnt the case in Fallout 3 but if they had behemoths in New Vegas I bet it would be. With behemoths I like to figure out different ways to kill them, involving hiding, shooting, running, activating computers, running enemies into him etc. Not bringing out the Fat Man (which by the way there were few mini nukes in vegas) and finishing him that way.

Would have no problems if the Rangers acted Elite but their armor aborbs bullets from a SR like a super mutant masters health absorbs AR bullets. Plus they do lots of damage and its a pain.They are after all only human, I would respect the Elites if they were no different to kill but had an Intelligent A.I. and were good damage dealers in all areas. But its the armor because one I have a Sniper with AP bullets they fell so easily.

Yeah but the DR was in Fallout 3 and the armor contributed. I just don't think Armor should be as big as they emphasized it to be in Fallout in New Vegas. What it does is just make people go "f this im going to use power armor" and then wear that for the game. I know power armor is amazing but Great Armor and Great Weapons shouldn't be what makes your character the strongest, your stats and the players ability to think their way through combat is what makes the combat enjoyable. I levelled to 27 in New Vegas ( I am determined to get the Achievements) and was destroying cazadors and lakelurks. It took me a long time to get to 27 and a lot of areas in the map are blocked off because of Cazadors and Lurks and Deathclaws. Everything else is a joke now at this point with the exception of armored foes making me waste my good bullets and maybe Deathclaw areas. The Challenge in the game just switched and now its gone to really easy from really hard. I don't want to make a New character because it takes to long to be able to have random fun, yet the character I have now isn't being challenged enough by the monsters except gay armor crap which is just a caps drain.

I didn't play the first 2 fallouts so my expectations of NV come from what I played in 3. If Deathclaws are supposed to be uber Badasses I didn't get that feel in 3, I felt they were just the strongest animal and like in real life animals are easier to dispatch then a human (or in fallout a normal ghoul or super mutant) and it should reflect that in New Vegas. If Deathclaws made Frank Horrigan shake in his boots then NV definitly did the job well but from my fallout 3 perspective they are overpowered.

There lies the problem. NV offers variety of encounters not just F3-styled cake walks in a park. It's an RPG, not whack-a-mole.



So? To me it seems like you are complaining about the challenges again. I actually never *had* any of these ridiculous spawns around Goodsprings or other major areas like you say(apart from Fiends around Freeside, who got finished off pretty quick by the patrols) so I don't get you.

And it's *not* my boolets penetrates your armor, it's, "Hmm, this guy looks tough, maybe I should try something else". If this game was being made like you suggested, we could bludgeon ANYONE including bosses to death with nothing but Nail Boards. This game actually makes you THINK before trying to pick a fight with someone.



When a missile hits him, I of course expect him to shrug it off and be pissed even more. That size and mass has a reason. And where did you get this "running, gunning, hiding" stuff? Sounds more like NV to me/which is good). The Fatman argument on the other hand sounds exactly like F3. <_<



"Fallout 3" perspective? Then I suggest you to try the old stuff too, to understand where I am coming from. But then again(no offense), after reading all this, it makes me think that you would probably not get over the graphics or game mechanics. And no it doesn't have the so c00l "visceral boxsand experience".



Not it should not. NV is made by Obsidian, former Black Isle staff and original creators of Fallout 1 and 2.
Just because gamesas dumbed down the creatures for easier grinding does not mean it should set a standard for future games.

As for the Deathclaws: No, they are not supposed to be dispatchable easier than the humans. :facepalm:
Sheesh, I don't think I've ever heard a guy questioning the lore because "they were easier in XY". By that anology, I could complain about the lack of scantily clothed women because they were in the console game Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel!

The Outcasts don't have a hidden chamber, or goal, or secret documents they don't want anyone to know about either. They're pretty blatant about their beliefs. They're just tech-hoarders, in it for tech and power and have no respect for anyone. "Hey Local, shouldn't you be banging rocks together or something" even when you're staring at them through the visor of a T-51b and wielding a plasma rifle.

Seriously, the comparison here is pretty silly. House is a mover and shaker in the Mojave. He's one of the ones who can actually make decisions that impact the entire map. In terms of importance, he's more like the Lyons Brotherhood or the Enclave than the Outcasts, who're too weak to do more than launch a few patrols and take an abandoned VSS facility.

Seriously try 1/2...Then you'll understand what Smert is saying.

That doesn't address the problem. What do the Brahmin eat? There isn't any vegetation around. Plant life is always the base of the food chain, and with the complete lack of it anywhere but in Oasis the continued existence of life in the wasteland just doesn't make any sense. The only legitimate point you make is regarding fungus, which isn't enough to sustain a population. Even if they have a magical machine that can crank out infinite cave fungus, you can't live off of just mushrooms. Pre-war food doesn't count, you can't sustain a population for that long without renewable food sources.



And the children get there how? The protagonist obviously isn't there to shepherd all of the lost children of the wastes to the remote, hidden cave.



No. People who are hardened killers with guns would not be easy foes for someone with no armor or training. Shooting a BB gun at a stationary target is training only in the sense that it gives you the basic feeling of holding a rifle. Other than the basic 'point and shoot' practice (without the noise, kickback, or practice hitting moving targets), this 'training' is worthless.

You completely missed my point about super mutants. I wasn't claiming they have combat experience, just that they are difficult targets that would require someone skilled and properly equipped to handle. Though I suspect a blood thirsty mutant has far more experience killing than a sheltered vault dweller.



They aren't really smart people, they're badly written characters. I agree that they don't have any formal education, and that isn't really relevant to my point. My point is that it is entirely implausible for 'scientists' (even if they got their degrees from a 200 year old, radiated Cracker Jack box), people the writers wanted us to believe are intelligent, to do something as ridiculously stupid as Project Purity was all around. You don't need advanced scientific knowledge to know that destroying an irreplaceable device that creates a fresh, virgin landscape (the words used in the game) is a bad idea.



...no. There is no such thing as DNA that isn't easily 'mutatable'.



Still doesn't make any sense at all. He could have just lied to the protagonist about what the FEV would do to raise the likelihood of actually completing his objective. This is of course disregarding the fact that said objective is moronic.



:facepalm:

Sorry, but you really shouldn't be trying to explain the science of genetics to anyone.

Though I really like both of them, the world and atmosphere of Fallout 3 really effects my opinion. It was much more immersive and I could literally just go in any direction to find interesting stuff. New Vegas on the other hand feels more linear and I feel suppressed as well as exploration feeling boring and not so rewarding. New Vegas is clearly better when it's comes to role playing and it's writing is a step up. But the world of NV was very bland in most areas and instead of being apocalyptic it was more western. It felt like a different game sometimes. Fallout 3 could be played literally more than 5 times and exploration was still great. So I pick Fallout 3, I love them both as said but for me the gameplay must be enjoyable and the world I'm in will effect that.

From the amount of farms i've seen being tended to in the Mojave, your case isn't very strong. So what they have an acre or two with Maize that's not going to sustain the whole desert. What do these Brahmin in NV eat? i haven't seen any pastures that they graze on and if they share the produce with the Brahmins the supply for the desert is even less plausible. Sure FO3 did a horrible job of showing were food came from but NV wasn't much better. In FO3 I wasn't wondering where people got their food from, but in NV I scoffed at the idea of these few farms supporting an entire state.


for all we know perhaps Big Town is for Children what Little lamplight is for Mungoes and the advlts make a pilgrimage with their child to the caverns after all if you're from Big Town the little lamplighters would be familiar with you, Bryan Wilkes was a complete stranger to them and that's why you need to convince Macready. If that doesn't please you, Kids will experiment, if you know what I mean after all they leave when they are 16 and if you did health and relationship education (or whatever it's called in other places) you should know children are plausible.


and yet some guy who was shot in the head retains all his skill in holding a gun, using it etc.


People already go FO3 is a rehash of 1&2 (and i'm not denying that it rehashes the story) and if Bethesda had gone "I know we'll make them create a town with the G.E.C.K" you can see where i'm going with that. On top of that one single town would not help help the capital wasteland in the slightest, the east is a dangerous place they wouldn't have patience for crops to grow and then when the crops are grown people will kill for the food because it is limited. Fresh water would be a lot better for them. Sure they can make it but it takes so much time and effort for just a few measly glasses. In the basin it is in abundance. However I don't agree with them sealing off the basin, they should let the water flow throughout the Potomac



uhhh the PC has witnessed these men murder people in cold blood, people that wanted to help the wasteland. Then he was pursued by them (well attacked by them) when trying to get civillians to safety, while roaming the wasteland he sees the pain they cause wastelanders, after retrieving the G.E.CK he was captured by them then threatened at gunpoint by the second in command, on his way to meet the president he is attacked again in full force and if you go to Colonel Autumns Room you can see that Eden's plan isn't exactly innocent if his second in command has destruction codes 'just in case'. So I don't think Eden doing a bit of sweet talking is going to remedy things. the PC couldn't leave anyway, sure a lie might have helped persuade him, but I highly doubt it after all he's been through with them.

Wolfhorn Ranch, the abandoned farm, the sharecroppers, and there is a large farm in the northwest that I forget the name of. These aren't enough to sustain the population, but they do serve as representative examples to show that the food isn't being pulled out of the ass of bad writing. The Brahmin actually have plenty of grazing land, if you look around. Further, the game references 'brahmin barons' repeatedly, who apparently have huge ranches. They aren't on screen, but the reference is enough to establish "Oh, alright, there are actually people producing something of value in this setting." Fallout 3 doesn't have the same legs to stand on, there is no reason given that people have no obvious trouble getting food.



...not touching that one.



And everyone in the game who knows it reacts in shock that he made such a full recovery. Ever worked in a hospital? Full recoveries like this do happen, it just isn't common.



*facepalm* Fail argument is fail. If having arable land is dangerous, it's just as dangerous to have a huge supply of clean water to tempt theft.



Wrong. The PC has witnessed these men murder one PERSON in cold blood, during a railroad cutscene made of pure fail. They kill one scientist when the world's most overrated deadbeat dad decides to resist (they don't have the right to take the project over, but resisting the heavily armed and armored men and risking your team is still awful leadership) like a moron and sabotages the project. The Enclave doesn't kill the scientist that actually cooperates, as you learn in Raven Rock.

Eden isn't innocent, and I never claimed he was. Like so much else in Fallout 3, Eden is a victim of terrible writing.



You're making my point for me. Sweet talking won't help, and there is obviously no chance that the PC is going to actually go along with Eden's plan, so there is no reason to give the vial to the player.

The premise itself is stupid, but a lie would raise the odds of getting what he wanted done. Honestly, if Eden had lied how many dim players would have put the vial in thinking that he was actually being honest? Lots, I guarantee. Of course that would be a surprising twist and would punish a stupid player for making a bad decision, and Bethesda can't have something like 'that'. The kids would get angry and want to know why everything wasn't spelled out for them.

I said yes they failed in FO3, however the stuff we see in New Vegas is what we see there's nothing else to it, the share cropper farms could barely support all the outposts and it's obvious they can't, in case you missed it I said tended to this might come as a shock, but farms don't grow by themselves they take a lot of hard work. This pasture you speak off all I see is brown tufts of grass with maybe a little green chucked in here and there, this might be another shock for you that was in FO3 and no Brahmin would not survive on that, so it comes back to crops being used to feed Brahmin which equals less food for people. A poor attempt is only slightly better than a horrible attempt.




but the tech we have in hospitals not some shack is lightyears beyond what Doc Mitchell would have access to.




fail retort is fail, seriously water on the ground doesn't belong to anyone, unlike the crops they would belong to the people who got the G.E.C.K working, they would take enough so they could live in realtive comfort in relation to food then the left overs would be given out on a 'first in best dressed' policy, it creates more problems than it solves. On the other hand IF bethesda had opened the tidal basin to help purify more of the potomac it keeps parties out of each others way. all they got to do is walk down to the river and fill a few bottles, they aren't stealing it, it's just there. Which is completely different to there being only one location to procure fresh food.



Your father knows the Enclave are shady if you listen to him when they first land, he doesn't exactly sound very pleased to see them and no they didn't kill her they would more than likely wait until her usefulness wore off and then dispose of her, Like Eden would have disposed of you. Your father isn't exactly an idiot listen to him next time the Enclave take the purifier, he knows what they would do, everyone would die in that project he gave them a chance (very slim albeit) to escape.


Neither did i, it was in reply to your 'just should have made him tell a lie that made the plan seem innocent' after all the PC went through, a lie isn't gonna work. even on some naive kid straight out of the vault




If you think people would be that stupid... just wow
don't know about you but if some people had been trying to kill me whenever they saw me, then I read some documents about the president being a shifty b*stard i'm not going to be inclined to help them out at all.

And your only doing teh same thing, but from a different angle.