Two months ago fella.


Yeeeah, Bethesda love their merchandise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjEdWTk1l9o

:P

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BURN THE HERETIC!

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I'll bring the marshmallows. Who's bringing the soda and beer?

Off topic, I just noticed that my local game store sells FO:BoS for 39.99?.

[Lie] The music was simply epic! Slipknot, Killswitch Engage... other [censored] metal bands, it fit the post apocalyptic theme well!

Surely Bethesda knows better than to even glance at the design documents of those two failed abortions in hopes of getting ideas... right?

Your game store would need to pay me €39.99 to take it in safe disposal charges.... And I think that store needs to be closed for decontamination.

Unfortunately, they've taken quite a few ideas from them.

Fortunately, they seem to have plucked the designs that aren't complete [censored] and left the rest to rot away.

The Tesla Cannon is awesome, so there's one good thing they salvaged.

Well, they took the Vault-Tec vault full of FEV from FOBOS too. And that was pretty damn silly. As was the Fatman, also from FOBOS2.

Just to state this, I have played every fallout that has been made.

Fallout 1, is my fav. and a few hi-rez mods and the UO-patches.
Playing it again tonight.

Fallout Tactics, is great , Iso view and real time combat.

Fallout 2 is a close thrid, I need to play throught it again with Killaps patch and a few others.

Fallout 3, with its butchered version of stats, S.P.E.C.I.A.L, the lack of traits and lots of uselss perks goes here

And finally, the Xbox BOS, is close to Fallout 3, I thought it was pretty neat really.

I was disapointed with the loss of traits too, but I accept, and understand the reason to remove them. This board is full of threads asking how to do a called shot in FO1/2, because the player didnt realise at creation that they'd lose this ability by picking fast shot.

A big thing I harp on about at work is Interface design, its the most important thing there is.... If I designed the best car in the world for accelleration, handling, fuel efficency all in one car, but didnt use conventional controls, and just made up my own crazy system that required 5 hands to use... How many would I sell? Making fallout an easier world to play in is an admirable goal.

I think a little dumbing down from SPECIAL is okay... At least at first... Maybe have traits as something that can be unlocked with play, or have a warning when they're selected appear on screen saying "Warning - We do not recommend adding a trait to your first character, as they can have a large negative effect to your game, play the game without them first", etc. Let that come into things when the player is ready for it.

I don't really understand why a Fallout game should cater to idiots who can't understand a concept like that. I would actually feel treated like an idiot by the game's designers if I saw that.

the was the best part of Fallout 1/2, traits where great, I was smart enough to know what the description of fast shot was when I first played the game,
making it easyer to play is a admirable goal, but gutting the system along the way is the wrong way to do it.

A little would be ok, but really can you call what it is now a little?
Vinalla fallout 3 you can take INT-9 AGI-9 and STR end, and screw the other's, I have done it, luck affects jack, charisma means nothing and, Prec is useless.
There are a few special cases where having a stat at a level give dialog but thats it, a speech of 60+ makes chrisma usless, its not used for follwers ot anything else.

Perception has almost no bearing on the game at all, and doesnt affect small guns, or big guns. only engery weapons I think, but there is no need for anything other than small guns 90% of the time, and the fat man and missle luancher requires no skill to use.

Removing trats was a huge setp in the wrong direction, it made each toon special, and was fun to kinda pick a plus, that had a down side, more realstic I think.

Problem with fallout 3 is, it is almost impossable to fail, and I think it gets that from oblivion, and it got that from morrowind, where as in fallout you could really cripple your toon ( and to a lesser extent morrowind as well ) you could fail, or make it extremely hard.

Don't get me wrong I love fallout -3 and Oblivion ( infact I own a 360 and pc copy of each ) but morrowind was more of a rpg than ither of those, everything in it was based on the stats of the person you created, not the skills of the person at the keybord, but lots of people cryed it was too hard ( much like what you said about fast shot ) and it got a huge reduction in the skill of the avatar and put it in the hands of the player.


like I said, I love them for what they are, oblivion is the next in line, just as this is fallout 3 ( for better or worse ) but it would have been less critical of it had it been a spin off first, the games are just too easy, and focus on just a few stats, insted of all of them.

As a spin off, its great
as sequal, Its reather poor, lets hope they improve.



Edit in.


" I don't really understand why a Fallout game should cater to idiots who can't understand a concept like that. I would actually feel treated like an idiot by the game's designers if I saw that. "
please, make a game that kicks my ass, I want a hard time, and no game should cater to those who cant read, and figure out that kinds of thing on there own.
Games are becoming too main stream, and too easy. loosing there depth for flashy gimicks and looks, I am re-playing fallout 1/2 and tactics while I want on the withcer to get here.

Indeed, you have to fail pretty badly to not understand the info cards in FO1/2

Wow...BOS gettin' a lot of hate. I actually enjoyed runnin' and gunnin' through the Metro and cueing up "Welcome to the Jungle" during the assault on assault with the Tesla Cannon and more than 1800 rounds (yeah...been stockpiling those since level 15 back in December for some reason...).
Made a Wasteland Commando like m'self rather satisfied.
Story could have used some work there in the end. Everything else was gravy.

I'm not going as far as to say "Cater to idiots", but in far too many things IT designers start with an assumption that someones skills and understanding are higher than they neccessarily are. Anything that helps people get into it slowly but surely is better in the long term - better vehicle instruction now means that cars are commonplace, not just something for a time and cash rich person to muddle their way through on their own as a hobby.

I mean if I were to stick you in a plane, never flown one before, are you an idiot if you crash the thing? No.... You just dont know what you're doing.

It was sad to see traits go, and I think it was the wrong call to cut it, but I see why they cut it and agree with the goal they're going for, but if the traits were not a problem, the question wouldnt have ever been asked on this forum about why folks cant target by right-clicking, but its one of the more common FO1 gameplay questions we have.

Flying planes and playing games are two very, very different things.
The games come with a Instruction manual, that maybe they should read? you know that's what they are for?
My copy of fallout white label collection came with the manual on the disc.
A simple Google, search for fallout 1 manual and I found it in PDF format.

the game description of the trait Fast shot, CLEARLY stats that you can't aim.
Here

Fast Shot:
You don't have time to aim for a targeted attack , because you attack faster than normal people. It costs you one less action point to use a weapon. You cannot perform targeted shots, but all weapons have AP -1 to use.

I am sorry but if you can not understand that, you really don't need to play this game.

And what goal is it exactly that they are going for? to make it simpler? to make it easy? well Fallout 3 was really simple, so simple that a person with a brain is unable to fail.
Is it easy? well seeing as you can sneak attack crit anything short of the 2-3 SMB's in the game i would say so, even on hard the game is a joke.

Its one of the more common questions you might have because people refuse to read anything, and then wonder why they can't do anything, I was smart enough to figure out the entire game's control's with out having to read the book, but not everyone picks things up that fast, that's why there are manuals.

right from the book


Attacking. The number of AP required to make an attack will
depend on the attack that you make. Weapons that are big and bulky
will require more AP to use than a smaller, more agile weapon.
All ranged weapon attacks are assumed to be aimed.
Ammunition is scarce. Each shot must count.
Targeted shots require more aim time, so they take an additional
AP to perform.
To attack, right-click on the active item button (also called an
active weapon button when you have a weapon in it during combat)
to get to the mode that you want to attack in. Left-click on the button
to get a targeting cursor. Move the targeting cursor over your
opponent, and left-click again to attack.

and if you just so happened to read the book, or at least this part, then you read the trait you took, you could figure out that you cant make a targeted shot, just a normal attack.



"I mean if I were to stick you in a plane, never flown one before, are you an idiot if you crash the thing"
no but you are a idiot for trying to fly it in the first place with out looking for any instructions or a trainer, in fact I would be smart enough to know, Hey I can't fly this, so I am not gonna try.

I like to pretend the FEV in Vault 82 doesn't exist.

However, the Fatman falls under the same "awesome" category as the Tesla Cannon, and in my humble opinion it fits into the Fallout world quite well. If we were crazy enough to try and create a similar weapon in the real world (M-388 Davy Crockett), I can certainly imagine the Department of Defense/War Department/Whatever Department commissioning such a device in nuclear-crazy world of Fallout.

It's "fallout-y" but it's execution was poor, imo. A weapon like that should of only had one rocket, three at the most, it could of been a weapon that you saved for the most dire emergencies or if it had a special use in a quest. Think: master ball from the original pokemon games, that's where I'm getting at.

Not really. Its a skill, just like any other. Noone is built with an innate ability to play video games.

It would be great if people read the manual. It would be great if they read the terms and conditions of their contracts, and great if they read rules of the board (these arent digs at you, just examples). The fact is, they don't. The manual has been proven time and time again to be an innefective way to communicate information on a product - this is why games now have annyoing tutorials.

The fact is, if this wasnt an issue, the question never would have been asked here, and never asked on any other board - Can you say either of these things are true?

No, to make the game more "Accessable". Its not about removing a challenge, a challenge and ease-to-play are not contradictory goals.

Take an example - You think fallout is a pretty easy "RTFM" kinda game. Have you ever played any of the ancient sierra quest games? The pre-VGA ones where you type what you try to do. Lets be fair and take Quest for Glory 1 as the specific example as its stats based. Is playing with a text parser a heck of a lot harder than point and click? Yes, its not less challenging, its just less accessable. Is point and click therefore Moron-EZ-Mode? No.

Heck, lets take the example further. Go pull up a copy of Beurocracy. Theres a game (Douglas Adams and infocom at their best). No graphics. Just you and a text parser. tell me how far you get. Are therefore all games with graphics dumbed down and only for morons?



Its not about being smart. Stupid people can fly, and smart people cant. Its about asking 1) Have you got the skill, and 2) Is the way to interact with the vehicle/object/game in a way that you can understand?

I read an article recently about a very accomplished pilot - Flies fixed wing power planes and helicopters, so clearly a smart cookie. Tried to learn to fly a microlight and spent a few dozen flying hours trying - Unfortunately the controls were set up in a way that made no sense to him, no control stick, etc. Couldnt do it. Is he stupid? Nope, he's a professional helicopter pilot.

Tactics 2 would have been great, but I might have played BOS2.

svcks that all these went down the crapper.

Glad Beth is there bringing the series back.

Thing is though, I don't think we are gonna see eye-to-eye on this, I think games are becoming over casual and simple, and loosing dome of that special factor when you advance each stage.

And, that text game, I can't remember the name of it, but it delt with a hunated house and some crystal orb, was kinda neat.


oh, and I am glad that they are bring the series back, I just don't agree on the how.

Beurocracy is fun! Its one of the funniest games you'll ever play! Even the game actively fighting against you is fun. Is it easy... No. If you don't play it, you are missing a real Gem.

"Blame the user" is an easy thing to do. Is the user at fault? Partialy. Is the design at fault? Definately.

It isnt the users fault if an interface is desgined shoddily, or the effects arent made clear in an accessable way.

Oh, and I dont have to ask why the speed goes down when I cut the throttle.... I dont have one (I fly Gliders, No thottle. Gravity is my engine.)

I'd say that the trait descriptions in FO1/2 arw pretty damn clear.

To those of us who have played the game... But apparently not to everyone.