You don't know what you are talking about. Every skill point increased your damage output etc in most of the skills. Even in the threshold skills like science, there were different reqs to hack various computers so even there it was not useless.

Err... no? How many ranks does it have, 6? If it has 5 it will be like adding 20 points (5 ranks if I am not mistaken) and it used to be adding 10 in whichever skill you wanted to. So, if spreading them, it is 3-ish vs 20 points. That is quite sudden to me and doesn't feel like my character leans to use explosives as I used to in F3 etc. Plus if you wanted to specialize in a skill you picked perks which complemented the skills.

The benefits of a high skill level were marginal compared to the effects of the perks that required such a high skill level.

They weren't marginal at all. Even a few points made a difference. Not my fault you weren't perceptive enough.

No they didn't. You only got bonses every 25 points, so 96 of those points from 1-100 were pointless.

In fallout 3 skills never started from 0.Most of the time you could only add 87-82 points.

That means an equivalence of roughly 16 skill points to perk rank (also perks start at 0 rank and there are 5 ranks for combat perks judging by the released footage.

Did they? Each skillpoint might have given you a tiny bit of more damage or accuracy, but in the end the difference between small arms 37 and 38 is marginal. Having certain thresholds makes just as much sense. They removed a mechanic that works in the same way as perks do now essentially.

It was different with speech in Fallout 3 where you had better chances the higher your skill was, but really as others pointed out there were flaws with the system. Like having full speech with a Charisma of 1. The system was great for the first Fallouts but this kind of stuff needs to evolve as well.

Perks on the other hand were always something special that you wanted to take, bringing skill equivalents and perks together means much more choice and enjoying your next level.

They could have fixed the flaws instead.

They did, yes. Even a tiny bit was appreciated. Plus what is more natural? Gradual learning or sudden thresholds? Seriously people?

Go test it. Now. Or open G.E.C.K. and look at them.

Errr.. I used mods to lessen the skill points per level because you used to be able to max out too many skills, so what exactly do you mean by saying you couldn't max out one skill (if I understand correctly that's what you are saying?)

I did and while it seems like NV skills did that, it doesn't look like 3 did that.

I agree completely. I think we should all tweet Pete Hines some smoke signals, so that he can pull up in his horse and cart and apologise in person using primitive hand signals. Enough of this lark, I'm off to watch my clockwork TV to see if I can find a decent documentary about cavemen...

No,it's not that.I'm just saying that in fallout 3 you didn't really have to invest 100 points to max a skill since they actually started in the range of 10 to 15(IIRC) depending on your SPECIAL allocations.

I wonder how many starting perks we will get. In the previous game special dictated your starting skill points and in addition you got 3 tag skills to start off with.

Will we get some tag perks?

I think it's more, the higher a special is, the higher level perks you can pick up. Say 10 in luck lets you pick any of the 10 luck perks at level up if you're at the right level.

Nope, doing the math using the character system video it's clear the player have not received free starting perks or perk points.

I don't mean what is available, what I mean is the amount of perks you start with at lvl one.

Since skills are condensed into perks, it would make sense to have a few starting perks to choose from right out of the vault.

Ah yeah right, this would be a nice touch. But I doubt it, anyway I hope they bring back the traits as well.

By the way your avatar is intriguing and reminds of somehting I can not grasp. What is it and where is it from? I think I've seen it before.

It's an artists representation of a Variag fighter, a race of southrons that wore masks into battle in Tolkien's Middle Earth.

As remmus said,you start from scratch.

Ah, fair enough then.

Are you implying that this dumping down is evolution?

I understand wanting to be overly positive a few days before launch. I explained the reasons I considered the skill system to be immersive and I used to enjoy it. If you didn't appreciate it, that's ok.

It's a matter of viewpoints. For example in the future they decide to take out of the game all rpg elements. An action fan says "there wasn't any point in having rpg elements! Good streamlining way to go Bethesda!", while a more rpg-ish fan is complaining and typically many are too deep into the hype train to feel any negativity from anything.

So, since it's a matter of viewpoints I will not argue further. Anyhow, my money won't support fallout at launch. Cheers.

Nothing that we have been shown suggests in any way that the character system has been dumbed down. The way this has all been put together is pure genius, and it makes far more sense that the previous system. In fact, the new system is so balanced and intuitive, you don't even need a level cap, and it will be almost impossible to max out your character without some serious grinding (estimate is around 2,500 hours). So yes, I would call this evolution. Also, role-playing, as in playing a role and customising your character according to your choices and actions? Most definitely yes.

I'm sure once you've actually seen the game in action you'll realise why we're all so excited about this, and it has everything to do with Fallout 4 still qualifying as an RPG.

Simply removing or changing things is not an automatic indication of "dumbing down". I would consider this move to be more like cutting out the fat that may have caused some flaws in the system.

In 3 and New Vegas, I didn't feel much synergy between skills and SPECIAL stats. The worst offender was being able to have 100 points in Speech, yet invest only one point in Charisma. Although Charisma and Speech were meant to compliment each other, they ended up feeling like two completely different stats. The same could actually be said nearly all other stats and skills (Agility/Sneak, Perception/Energy Weapons & Lockpick, ect.). Since SPECIAL stats mostly added points to skills, they became almost worthless once a player reached 100 points in the respective skills. Especially since any effects that would raise skills over 100 had no effect.

In this system however, everything is tied into one uniform system. Abilities that were once skills are now perks with multiple ranks. Acquiring "skills" such as Melee Weapons, Sneak, and Lockpick are now dependent on SPECIAL stats. If a player wants to be good with persuasion, they MUST invest points in Charisma while selecting perks to enhance the experience. If a player wants to be good at sneaking, Agility must be leveled up in order to pick the Sneak perk and become harder to detect. And without skill points, SPECIAL stats don't lose their value even after ranking up perks. This means that even if Sneak and Melee Weapons are fully ranked up, the effects of SPECIAL stats will still come int effect. While the system may seem restrictive, it makes SPECIAL stats, perks, and "skills" equally as important. In my opinion, this is more like evolving a system rather than dumbing it down.

I am not saying that your opinion is nonsense as you are entitled to your own thoughts. However, you seem very quick to dismiss a game based on changes you have yet to experience for yourself. I would suggest to at least try it before slagging it off.

Pretty damn excited. If it works like I hope it will, everyone will be making very specialized and unique characters.

I don't know honestly, I hope it won't be so that you can easily mess up an entire part of your face and go on with it.

I'm betting we start with 3 perk points.

The previous Fallouts allowed 3 tag skills so starting with 3 perk points makes sense.

Or it makes more sense than having a first level character without a perk point to spend (and having to wait till second level to get that first perk point).

Also I've seen a SS in a demo at level one with 31 points of Special stats instead of 28 points.

At least I think that is what I saw.

If someone was doing a demo clip using a first level character, dumping the 3 perk points in to stats would be a quick way to deal with them before toggling God mode.

I can see it helping some.

Say up to half again the damage.

I'll agree that having someone do double damage because of skill is pushing it.

There is a big difference in being able to hit a human sized or even torso sized target reliably and being about to hit a head sized target reliably.

Someone with a higher skill would be more likely to put the bullet dead center and do more damage.

A skilled shooter would also be able to recover from the recoil faster and have a better understanding of what would be a good shot and what would be a bad shot.

That would allow him to make better shots (well aimed shots that do more damage.)

Since this is hard to represent in game mechanics, it is easier to just have a skilled shooter do some additional damage.

Also since Fallout is a RPG first and a FPS second, having a skilled shooter do more damage makes for better game play.

I foresee a mod to reduce damage bonuses from perks.

You get no arguments from me about TES being made lesser by the dumping of attributes (hopefully there will bring them back for TES 6).

I will say that Fallout 3 had about 85 ranks of perks.

Fallout 4 has 275 ranks of perks.

Even if you count 50 ranks of those being for Skill Perks rank 1 through 5, that is still over double the perks that Fallout 3 had.

Plus many of the ranks will offer bonus abilities like having the 5th rank of Iron Fist/unarmed combat giving you the Paralyzing Palm like ability or certain ranks of Sneak giving you a Light Step like ability.