Fallout 3 is fundamentally flawed : Fallout 3

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:05 pm

I sure hope Bethesda will copy Bioware in lots of ways in the future, like companions having responses to situations, 3rd person perspective only like in Mass Effect and Dragon Age and accompanying superb animation of your main character. Not the flimsy one like it is now.

Oh god no. Bioware? Non open landscapes? I love Bethesda's open world gameplay. I never had that feeling with Mass Effect and Dragon Age. I always felt like I was herded from one place to the next. No thanks!

No, I think Bethesda is just fine. Do things need improving? Of course! No game, especially a RPG is perfect. But it's not the mess that you make it out to be. Not by a long shot.

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 am

all I read was blah blah blah Fallout 3 svcks

» Tue May 17, 2011 7:38 am

It is an open-play game where you can adjust your play to counter or adjust to most anomalies, in your view, in the game, is my opinion ... and I ended up playing with a neigh perfect balance of game to my desires. Ok, I would have preferred not to have to make adjustments, but it depends on the person playing and maybe their preferences of play need no adjustments. So the game's ok ... just need to adjust the player and how he/she plays.

Now I need to go adjust my car

» Tue May 17, 2011 5:14 am

I really enjoy Fallout 3 alot.

But I do agree with some of the OP's points.

In particular what appears to be the main point about RPGs. In this game, eventually all characters seem to be the same, because you can max most or all stats (relatively quickly too). But that seems to be the way alot of people want it, particularly judging from the Skyrim forum. In fact there was a recent thread there with the OP worried that you wouldn't be able to max everything.

And Bethesda has made comments that seem to indicate that that are okay with this.

The general approach in Bethesda open ended games (like Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3) seems to be to allow players to do anything and max everything. The result is that there is little or no consequences for choices made, which is contrary to typical RPG philosophy (and real life). In my opinion, if you make a choice to get something, you should also lose something - otherwise there is no reason to consider the choice. Morrowind came closest to having meaningful choices (like what Great House or Guild to join due to faction conflicts) but even then it was limited.

In FO3 choices affect some quests to a limited degree, but nothing major.

This impacts replay. As I say I really like the game. I've played it alot. And I'm considering starting a new game. But I'm having difficulty with the motivation. Because I'd end up with basically the same character. I usually play a good character, I'd like to play an bad character (in part to hear Three Dogs remarks), but aside from a few quests the rest of the game would be the same. Exploring seems to be at least 80% of the game. And exploring becomes less fun when you've found everything a few times over. And Exploring is pretty much the same with a good or bad character.

So while FO3 is a great game, I agree with the OP on some of the RPG related flaws. I'm hoping Skyrim will be better in terms of RPG, but it's not looking that way (however, still looks like Skyrim will be a fantastic game)

In my opinion.

» Tue May 17, 2011 8:56 am

Just a little reminder, Beth was only the highest bidder. You had big companies like Trojka and Bioware too.

So it was either giant open world with a few set backs, including poor characters and companions (Bethesda) or small world with cliched characters and companions who respond to the enviroment. (The others)

I'd pick Bethesda any day. Fallout 3 came out in 2008 with an engine made in 2004 or 2005, you shouldn't even be aloud to complain about the animations and the 3rd person view (I don't think it'd even meant to be played in 3rd person considering how much better the game looks on first person).

It was an incredible game!

» Tue May 17, 2011 7:47 am

I'd rather Trojka had done it. Hell, Obsidian would've been a good second. But mostly Trojka, because Arcanum was brilliant.

» Tue May 17, 2011 3:51 pm

I can't think of a single RPG where NPCs responded differently depending on what you were wearing. (besides faction based armor)...

Morrowind

» Tue May 17, 2011 5:32 am

I registered just to post this topic after completing Fallout 3(GOTY edition) for the first time.

Many of these flaws are detrimental to the very core of RPG aspect of the game which is the main reason(RPG) I got the game in the first place.

-you level up extremely fast, it is inexcusable that at the half point of the game you reach level 30, have almost all of your attributes to 10 and all of your skills to 100. At this early point the game ceases to be an RPG game

-money/bottlecaps and related skills like barter are completely irrelevant, even if money wasn't irrelevant repair is much more important in this regard and it has another function

-skill buffing perks are completely irrelevant

-perks system is further conducive to ruining RPG aspect, there is no specialization of any kind, there are no perks that you can branch out specializing in that field, you can be the master of everything which is inexcusable for an RPG game

-there are huge bugs in quests, for example if you kill the ghouls in the Tenpenny Tower quest, the residents randomly relate to you like you both killed the ghouls and you moved the ghouls in the building, how can such huge bugs even happen, they pretty much destroy any kind of satisfaction you get for completing quests...

-your influence on the world is completely unexploited feature. For example, why couldn't you, if you had the money, speech skill and you killed Tenpenny not take ownership of the building and then decide which tenants you want in the building and even have the option of bringing in various characters you meet in the world as tenants? Are such things obvious only to me? There are many such examples with many other locations and quests, this one example would at least make money relevant.

-V.A.T.S. kill camera needs complete workup, most of the time it goes through floors, walls, ground, always tracking dislodged heads. I noticed that the most satisfying kill slow-moes were when you see yourself from behind killing the target, when you see a profile view of both yourself and the target or if the perspective is behind the target and you see yourself in the distance. Every other camera shot is pretty much an annoying failure.

-laser(orange), plasma(green) and alien weapon's(blue) kill effects are seriously flawed, they look more like body disappearing effects you can find in Anchorage simulation than what they should look like, especially when flawed V.A.T.S. camera comes in. These visual effects are so bad and artificial looking I wished I could turn off V.A.T.S., which is btw a fine feature otherwise.

-it greatly bothered me when NPCs always react to you like you are wearing wasteland tattered outfits, I'm wearing a pristine Hellfire Power Armor or Chinese stealth suit and I might as well be wearing tattered slave scraps as far as NPCs are concerned, and furthermore, they shouldn't be able to recognize you if you are wearing such outfits, there should have been a template dialog option for that which may further branch into different dialog options. This would avoid stupid things like Brotherhood or Outcast addressing you as a local even if you are wearing exactly what they are wearing and they can't see your face.

-it saddened me deeply that 3rd person animation of the character wasn't on the same level of quality as animation of character in Mass Effect, otherwise I would have played in 3rd person perspective all the time, it is after all meant to be played that way with all the cool looking clothes and armor, but also there are many issues of clothes/armor/weapon clipping...

-your companions never react to any situation, location, dialog, or quest...I guess I expected too much after K.O.T.O.R. I.,II., and the management of your companions and their development is sorely lacking.

There are other major flaws but I can't think of them right now, I just had to get this of my chest because they pretty much ruined what could have otherwise been a magnificent game.

P.S.
Since Bethesda acquired Rage, does that mean that we will finally see its revolutionary animation system in future Bethesda products?
Just imagine how fantastic Fallout 3 would have been with such animation.

Simple answer: MODS.

It`s how I transformed my game. Same with Oblivion.

Long answer:

No game can do EVERYTHING you specifically like. for instance I hate VATS. I see it as completely needless in this type of game. I don`t like how empty boxes say `empty` on them. I don`t like how you have a GPS compass when there are no satellites. I hate the sneak warnings.

You seem to have no complaints about this.

So what you think is good\bad is only in YOUR point of view.

MODS are the way as they please everyone and if you are on console, then bad luck, as you`ll never get YOUR perfect game with consoles.

» Tue May 17, 2011 7:32 am

(i'm staying out of this one, valid points, but it's fuel for a flame war, pure and simple.) :flamethrower:

» Tue May 17, 2011 10:56 am

all I read was blah blah blah Fallout 3 svcks

Try reading it.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:09 pm

Try reading it.

and his main point is still "Fallout 3 svcks as it is". :shrug:

Don't like the game? Don't play it or better yet, mod it to your taste (as Shield Watcher suggested).

I like Fallout 3 for what it is now.

» Tue May 17, 2011 3:12 am

Last night I was thinking about this thread while exploring that vast train system under D.C. and it occurred to me that you don't play or beat a Bethesda game like Fallout, Morrowind, or Oblivion. You LIVE a Bethesda game and I think that's where the OP is going wrong. For example, I spent 2 hours in those tunnels last night and it was all exploration, no quests or anything like that. I'm not sure how many hours I have in Fallout 3 but I do know I have over 200 in Oblivion.

I never played the game the OP was talking about but from reading his post it seems like it's comparing apples and oranges.

I have always felt that Bethesda makes worlds and puts a story inside of that world. Bioware makes good games and I like Bioware but I feel that they make a story and make the world around the story. I'm just using Bioware as an example, I'm not even sure if the OP mentioned those guys or not.

» Tue May 17, 2011 11:51 am

I agree with a couple things that the OP has stated but Fallout 3 isn't completely terrible.
Yes Beth put too many Skill Books in the world
The Walking/Running Animations aren't the best
Almost Perfect is broken as well as a couple other perks (Cough, Comprehension, cough)
You get too many skill points from Leveling up and you level up too fast
Bugs/glitches can be a problem

I still think the Positives still outweigh the negatives.
FO3 is still an amazing RPG game
You have freedom to do what you want and go where you want (Tell that to a Bioware game)
Your Character is a blank slate although you do live your early life in the Vault
Character Creation is ok, not perfect but it does the job
Possible +100 hour game that you will have a lot of fun exploring

» Tue May 17, 2011 11:29 am

Last night I was thinking about this thread while exploring that vast train system under D.C. and it occurred to me that you don't play or beat a Bethesda game like Fallout, Morrowind, or Oblivion. You LIVE a Bethesda game

You touch it with a needle.

That`s how these games are best enjoyed. There isn`t really a `win`.

» Mon May 16, 2011 11:30 pm

The original poster and this thread is fundamentally flawed.

Every1 can start pointing out negative random stuff about every single game out there.

''I stopped reading after seeing the words fundamentally flawed. That's quite an accusation to an award-winning game with a considerable fan base (point being, a game generally considered good and successful).''

^ This

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:57 pm

Strange if it is so terrible that it is one of the highest rated games this gen.

Well it isn't terrible, but it has significant flaws. And your argument is garbage, google the terms 'argument from authority' and 'argument from popularity'. They're logical fallacies.

» Tue May 17, 2011 5:14 am

First of all some things, sucha s saying perks, and cerrtian skills are irrelavent, is irrelavant.

Saying your ability to change the world is not used is a good idea, But hard to implement, because it would have to happen for every single place, or piece of land.

And half of your points are just silly and the game is great.

» Tue May 17, 2011 9:26 am

Don't play it then. this forum is for people to talk about the game not complain about it

» Tue May 17, 2011 8:15 am

Btw, I think that hardcoe mode that is a new option in New Vegas should have been the default state of the game, it baffles me that this is even considered as novelty or an added option.

I agree. I also agree with alot of your original post. :foodndrink:

If you had not played the Originals you should.

I am not going to get anymore into this. Mostly I hate the New Vegas vs Fallout 3 threads. I am tired of them in the Fallout New Vegas section. So I am not going to do the same in the Fallout 3 forum but I just wanted to say I agree with you.

» Tue May 17, 2011 7:25 am

I agree. I also agree with alot of your original post. :foodndrink:

If you had not played the Originals you should.

I am not going to get anymore into this. Mostly I hate the New Vegas vs Fallout 3 threads. I am tired of them in the Fallout New Vegas section. So I am not going to do the same in the Fallout 3 forum but I just wanted to say I agree with you.

+1 thats why I stop going on the New Vegas forums I like both games. I LOVE 1&2. I can't see why people have to compare them all the time.

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:21 am

for the OP if you don't liker the game don't play it and don't complain. don't compare two very different companies with very distinct styles to each other.
and if you are going to complain, keep in mind that this was hybridized to appeal to the masses, which means it isn't a straight rpg. play fable 1 then fable 3.
play fallout 1 then fallout 3 compare and contrast. believe me, after going through fable 3 knowing how good the original was fallout 3 is a complete an utter relief.

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:46 am

Sometimes a young person (i am 27, so i still qualify as well), adapts truth and logic to their perspective. Justification.

I certainly do. But then I catch myself. Do you think the original poster catches his/her bias? Or identifies it as such?

» Tue May 17, 2011 6:03 am

Simple answer: MODS.

It`s how I transformed my game. Same with Oblivion.

Long answer:

No game can do EVERYTHING you specifically like. for instance I hate VATS. I see it as completely needless in this type of game. I don`t like how empty boxes say `empty` on them. I don`t like how you have a GPS compass when there are no satellites. I hate the sneak warnings.

You seem to have no complaints about this.

So what you think is good\bad is only in YOUR point of view.

MODS are the way as they please everyone and if you are on console, then bad luck, as you`ll never get YOUR perfect game with consoles.

There's still working satellites. Remember, things don't decay in space. Who's to say the Vault-Tec orbiter 3000 still isn't up there, sending down coordinates to our Pip-boys?

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:57 pm

I have to ask... What kind of in depth character creation? In Oblivion you begin as a blank slate in prison.
There is no reason I know of for the PC to have a name.

In FO3 you begin as a [nearly] blank slate in a prison.
There is no reason I know of for the PC to have a name, and the game assumes that you want to find your dad.

In Morrowind (I forget, but aren't you a blank slate, recently released prisoner!?)

And in Arena. Daggerfall broke the mould by making you a fed who fell victim to a shipwreck and a landslide in quick succession.

Also, Daggerfall, Morrowind and Fallout 3 all had a big stompy robot as a major plot point.

» Tue May 17, 2011 9:12 am

Last night I was thinking about this thread while exploring that vast train system under D.C. and it occurred to me that you don't play or beat a Bethesda game like Fallout, Morrowind, or Oblivion. You LIVE a Bethesda game and I think that's where the OP is going wrong. For example, I spent 2 hours in those tunnels last night and it was all exploration, no quests or anything like that. I'm not sure how many hours I have in Fallout 3 but I do know I have over 200 in Oblivion.

I was thinking the same thing just before this. I was just running from megaton to the tepid sewers. Up and over some broken concrete, along a ledge and then down onto some rubble, in the rubble was some sheet tin, and as you crossed it you could tell it was tin. different kinds of ground sound different. Then up to the bridge and blow up the mines, while listening to the spatter of fragments bouncing off the road and my armour. Then across the bridge and over to the ford to cross without having to strip and swim. As I jump down the rocks onto the ford (do that in a bioware game) I looked up as I heard a mireluk coming. I wait for it to close and blow its face off, and then kill the other one about 20 metres away. Then I realise their are more mialurk footsteps still closing. I turn around in a panic and shoot two more mirlurks about about 2 metres away. Then I go off and smack some mole rats in the head with Moria's repellant, get blown up in a gas explosion, get into a firefight with some raiders and a turret and generally get distracted again into exploring.

That is a typical day for me.

Yes the game is buggy, but it is so enormous that bugs are to be expected. Labour is a lot more expensive now than in the past, so Morrowind will remain the most massive world the Beth has done. Neither Oblivion or FO 3 has had its polish or size of Morrowind, but they are both great games that can be made amazing games with mods.