I registered just to post this topic after completing Fallout 3(GOTY edition) for the first time.

Many of these flaws are detrimental to the very core of RPG aspect of the game which is the main reason(RPG) I got the game in the first place.

-you level up extremely fast, it is inexcusable that at the half point of the game you reach level 30, have almost all of your attributes to 10 and all of your skills to 100. At this early point the game ceases to be an RPG game

-money/bottlecaps and related skills like barter are completely irrelevant, even if money wasn't irrelevant repair is much more important in this regard and it has another function

-skill buffing perks are completely irrelevant

-perks system is further conducive to ruining RPG aspect, there is no specialization of any kind, there are no perks that you can branch out specializing in that field, you can be the master of everything which is inexcusable for an RPG game

-there are huge bugs in quests, for example if you kill the ghouls in the Tenpenny Tower quest, the residents randomly relate to you like you both killed the ghouls and you moved the ghouls in the building, how can such huge bugs even happen, they pretty much destroy any kind of satisfaction you get for completing quests...

-your influence on the world is completely unexploited feature. For example, why couldn't you, if you had the money, speech skill and you killed Tenpenny not take ownership of the building and then decide which tenants you want in the building and even have the option of bringing in various characters you meet in the world as tenants? Are such things obvious only to me? There are many such examples with many other locations and quests, this one example would at least make money relevant.

-V.A.T.S. kill camera needs complete workup, most of the time it goes through floors, walls, ground, always tracking dislodged heads. I noticed that the most satisfying kill slow-moes were when you see yourself from behind killing the target, when you see a profile view of both yourself and the target or if the perspective is behind the target and you see yourself in the distance. Every other camera shot is pretty much an annoying failure.

-laser(orange), plasma(green) and alien weapon's(blue) kill effects are seriously flawed, they look more like body disappearing effects you can find in Anchorage simulation than what they should look like, especially when flawed V.A.T.S. camera comes in. These visual effects are so bad and artificial looking I wished I could turn off V.A.T.S., which is btw a fine feature otherwise.

-it greatly bothered me when NPCs always react to you like you are wearing wasteland tattered outfits, I'm wearing a pristine Hellfire Power Armor or Chinese stealth suit and I might as well be wearing tattered slave scraps as far as NPCs are concerned, and furthermore, they shouldn't be able to recognize you if you are wearing such outfits, there should have been a template dialog option for that which may further branch into different dialog options. This would avoid stupid things like Brotherhood or Outcast addressing you as a local even if you are wearing exactly what they are wearing and they can't see your face.

-it saddened me deeply that 3rd person animation of the character wasn't on the same level of quality as animation of character in Mass Effect, otherwise I would have played in 3rd person perspective all the time, it is after all meant to be played that way with all the cool looking clothes and armor, but also there are many issues of clothes/armor/weapon clipping...

-your companions never react to any situation, location, dialog, or quest...I guess I expected too much after K.O.T.O.R. I.,II., and the management of your companions and their development is sorely lacking.


There are other major flaws but I can't think of them right now, I just had to get this of my chest because they pretty much ruined what could have otherwise been a magnificent game.

P.S.
Since Bethesda acquired Rage, does that mean that we will finally see its revolutionary animation system in future Bethesda products?
Just imagine how fantastic Fallout 3 would have been with such animation.

You seem to be comparing bethesda games to bioware games, don't.

The only bugs I wish Bethesda had fixed when they released the GOTY Edition are the "perma goo/ash pile" glitch and the one that causes your character to unload very rapid and 100% miss shots on enemies if you que up too many hits. That always made me afraid to que up more than 2 shots in VATS, and if I did I would have to choose different limbs each shot because it helped prevent the "Rapid Miss VATS" glitch. Sure some of the games features could have been better but other than those 2 things I thought it was great.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that dreadful bug.




There was only one instance of reference to Bioware and even then you make no sense, quality is quality, it should be appreciated and acquired no matter the source.
Care to address anything else?

The focus of Bethesda is to provide an open world with in-depth character creation, all of these other things are completely irrelevant. Strange if it is so terrible that it is one of the highest rated games this gen. If you find the game so deplorable then just stop playing it.

I have to ask... What kind of in depth character creation? In Oblivion you begin as a blank slate in prison.
There is no reason I know of for the PC to have a name.

In FO3 you begin as a [nearly] blank slate in a prison.
There is no reason I know of for the PC to have a name, and the game assumes that you want to find your dad.

In Morrowind (I forget, but aren't you a blank slate, recently released prisoner!?)

(And curiously enough as it happens... in OB and FO3 your PC arrives at a tunnel with a big round door and is asked if they'd like to go back on any of their previous commitments for the PC, and then steps out onto a hill, just a short jog from a walled city.)

Lower standards in all things non-graphic? :shrug:

FO33 is FO3, live with it, i found the game fine

Focus on the specific content I put forth, not irrelevant generalizations.




You too.

Stating the obvious, buddy. Everyone has known this stuff since 2008.

Hi Metamagician, I agree with some of your comments (mostly the xp thing), but some of the things mentioned is what I like about the game (such as NPC reactions based on karma and your relationship with them and less about what you are wearing).

It is possible to get arround some of the issues you highlight. For example the skill point thing, you are right it's very easy to max out all skills to 100 early. But try to role play a dumb character with 1 inteligence and the lack of skill points to distribute when you level up are reduced. Don't get perks that give bonusses to skill points etc. This way you hit 100 much much later. For XP management I use companions to do the killing whenever possible & only get involved if there's a risk they might die.

I would never tell you how to play, I'm trying to demonstrate how the issues you mentioned can be managed or controlled by the player instead of the game, not perfect but it works for me.

And? The purpose is that you decide who you want to be yourself, its not one to five preset characters to select from.
I would see preset characters as a terrible downside as I would probably not like them. They tend to be very cliché, boring or unattractive.
Also the goat test is part of the game and would give you skills based on you answers, it should be a good enough preset character for you, yes the result would not be that you wanted just as a preset class is not that you want.
Preset pure classes has drawbacks, yes because of the experience point to level up (has to kill more supermutants to improve my science skill, yes I have done that) it’s less of a drawback than Morrowind / Oblivion where pure characters with skills who levelled wrong gave you a flawed character.

Yes the start gameplay has similarities between Oblivion and Fallout 3 as they mix gameplay tutorial and character creation, its work well and it a nice introduction.

And yes, you have a quality/ quantity issue, a game who is so large it would have hundreds of hour gameplay would be less polished than a game that last 10 hours.
An open ended game must have a less fleshed out story than a linear game.
This is a trade off

After how many hours gameplay? I use days to reach level 20, it’s a huge open ended game you will reach 30 long before exploring everything.
And yes if you powerplay like getting int up to 10, search out bobleheads, don’t raise the primary ones to 100 to not waste skillbooks you can reach 100 in all at level 30.


And how uncommon is it to much money in the end and irrelevant skills in other RPG? In most large RPG you end up with far more money than you need in the end unless they design money sinks like very expensive high end ammo for you to waste money on. In a game where the enemies drop all their equipment then they dies you has to flow over with money after playing it for a long time.


No they are useful as they increase your skills, yes they are stupid to use if you powergame as it’s more useful to let your skills stay low the first levels and increase your stats.


You have the explosive perks, and some perks that increase you damage in hand to hand who have specialisation, and yes it could be more like them. However using them will reduce the number of other more useful perks you can select.


Here we agree quests should be more fool proof, and the patching should be better.


Why can I not walk to New York or Vegas and explore, why can I not use mothership zeta and travel to Alpha Centauri? Game is limited in scope you can not do everything but I agree taking over Tenpenny tower would be nice.


I find cutting the head of somebody with a silenced 9mm more absurd, with a sword yes, plausible with a minigun, not with a single shot weapon.

Here are my two caps:

Bethesda is a business. A good business model is the making of profit. They made a game which appeals to three camps simultaneously.
1. The Power Gamers. These people can being god-like and giggle while they play.
2. The Role-Players. There are, while not infinite, certainly an incredible amount of options for various characters, and backstories to boot.
3. The Self-Imposed Rule Players, of which I am a part of, at least for the current character. You can certainly choose to NOT become powerful. I have strict rules about ammo weight, repair, barter, travel, doctor's visits, etc, which make the game dramatically tougher to survive in.

It's an RPG, with a little FPS thrown in to appeal to the masses. I think they hit a homer. :spotted owl:

Btw, I think that hardcoe mode that is a new option in New Vegas should have been the default state of the game, it baffles me that this is even considered as novelty or an added option.

Games that do this cannot be the best of breed, because those three aspects largely cancel each other out. If you have a top notch FPS (a 10 out of 10 game), and add bits of RPG, you lower the FPS quality because RPG aspects interfere with a good shooter. Imagine those three groups you have were like the Game's Special Stats, and there are enough points to make one of them a 10 (but leaving the other two as 1's). For gamers that don't care about the FPS aspect... The game would be a 1, not a ten, and if they balanced it out evenly, then the game would be a 3 or 4 to all players. :shrug:

The purpose of an RPG is to play a role ~in these games you don't get one. :shrug: (though you do get slightly more of one in FO3 that the other two).

Morrowind/Oblivion/FO3 are first person adventure games that seek to swap the player for the PC in the game world; allowing them the freedom to run riot and do whatever they please ~even though the PC should have an agenda and take matters more seriously ~in Fallout ... The PC did have an agenda (his home and family were about to die of thirst, and he was selected to brave the post apocalypse, and bring back their salvation ~the game imposed a real limit to how long they could live without the waterchip, and in so doing, tempered the player to act as the PC would ~by sharing his priorities; (which is playing the role).

In Planescape your role is that of a nameless immortal, in a curious situation, and his agenda is to reclaim his mortality, and recover his sense of self (and/ or atone for his past). He's not just a blank slate burke wandering the square looking for coin (To me that is the kind of character that is no fun). There is no role written on a blank slate PC, and no game can yet support writing one's own with the same level of quality and believability ~if they could that would be a different story indeed.

There is no such thing as a flawed character (in that respect); but the ironic thing is that Character flaws do make for the best characters to play. :laugh:

This is not inherently true, and depends rather a lot on the company doing the game (and their commitment to detail, and the final polish).

I would put that a linear game and an open game could both be designed around the same base story and contain the exact same story elements. Where the open game has the tale told from multiple paths and encounters, while the linear game uses a consecutive series of locations and unavoidable encounters... but in the end the story is the same.

Personally I love the game and all its features. I've played it for several hundred hours and still haven't found everything, and done everything. And with that massive boo-hoo-they-didn't-make-a-game-taylor-fit-for-me-list how did you miss the fact that there are more glitches in this game than there are catholics in the Vatican? Half the time, when I go to Old Olney the kny turns brown, and I can't see more than two feet in front of me. Or how about every so often when I go into V.A.T.S. my enemy spontaniuosly transforms into an enclave officer in their skippies.
And while I'm at it I want a pony.

I agree about FPS, however many strategy games have RPG statistic on soldiers. They have skills and level up. Mount and Blade is a combination of RPG and first person strategy game
(you the leader of a platoon to company sized band in a medieval setting with mounted combat as focus) But also in purer strategy games this work well and is pretty realistic as a veteran is worth multiple green recruits in combat, downside it that micromanagement is more important.


yes giving the character a urgent task is a good idea to drive the story, this is a problem in fallout 3 and Morrowind, in Oblivion it's smart to delay the end of the main quest. however it does not define the character in any way, fallout 3 defined the character in that he grew up in a vault and only that. Good or evil, lawful or chaotic, preferred weapon types everything is up to the player as it should be. Can also see two different character who both see themselves as good, example; one blow up megaton to save his family the other let them die and save the city. One character who donate a lot of money, and give water to beggars, turn around and walk away instead of entering the radioactive chamber at the end of fallout 3, he has lots of caps and water but only one life.

Has not played Planescape but here it nags me at once, if you was imortal why would you want to die unless your life is very unpleasant, why not quest to make it pleasant. If you disagree with the main objective of your character you have a problem. Not saying it's fun to role-play someone insane or totally alien but you has to understand the objective. yes probably easier with the back-story



Sorry was thinking Morrowind / Oblivion here where its possible to make a flawed character by levelling up by not using combat skills and start running into high level enemies. The city thief is my problem here. In fallout 3 you have to be pretty clueless to do run into this trap. continue raising your small gun skill to get better with you laser pistol.
And yes a pure powerplaying character is usually pretty boring, would never play a high elf mage, a kajiit mage is ok.


You would run into other problems than the obvious budgeting one. Each branch would has to developed and tested work=money. The main flaw with Oblivion main quest; tts the end of the world but nobody cares, why is not the fighter and mage guild not present in force at the battle of Bruma. They was running around with their own pretty problems. yes it would work if the main quest was low key/ secret, Morrowind was better here, you did not save the universe, only solved a major problem and people was happy because of it.
Fallout 3 broken steel solved it pretty decent however only a water purification plant? The fallback plan with Harold in the oasis will probably work better However changing the world after the main quest is a lot of work, you has to make a new version of the game.

Note: Fallout 3 & NW are more of FPSs than RPGs.

An urgent task is good, but an immutable character background (vague or detailed), serves not only as a guide to playing the PC, but also something for the Dev's to write to... A "known constant" that they can fashion a satisfying and believable story around.

Have you played Baldur's Gate? (and liked it I mean...)
Planescape has been the needle in a hay stack for years; almost impossible to find; and its one of the best RPG's ever made (In Many Opinions).

But last month it resurfaced retail with no DRM ~This is not one to miss if you like a party based RPG. (and it was some of the same guys on FO:New Vegas that made it.) http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/planescape_torment

*Also, as it happens... The sprites in Planescape are double the size of Baldur's Gate's, and the fan made Hi-res patches for the infinity engine have a version for Planescape that really looks sharp, and is worth adding.

My thinking was actually that the Open ended game can be as limited as the linear game, and so have the same content (but actually not be as good a game ~and have lost potential )
*Point being that its not an absolute that "An open ended game must have a less fleshed out story than a linear game and the reverse being true that a linear game can have less attention to detail and polish than an open ended one ~depending on company culture, and their commitment to [reasonable] excellence."

I'm replaying FO3 because I never completed all the DLC's thoroughly.. I got bored eventually.. but I'm giving FO3 a go again. Anyways, the thing that bothers me the most is the stupid AI of followers (that's why I dont have any most of the time) and enemies. For example: two or three raiders are sitting by a campfire doing what raiders do, talking about the loot or something, got one in my crosshairs next second blammo! Splattered his/her brains all over his/her buddies lap. What happens? Nothing! The other raiders just stay seated chatting away like nothing has happened. Besides combat there are lots of other flaws in quests and dialogs as well.. whatever.. it's not the most annoying one thus far. The most annoying combat flaw has to be shooting against invisible walls which will alert enemy npc's like when shooting through a gate, holes in the floor or just around the corner with a perfect line of sight but blocked for some reason.

I'll be doing the same with the GOTY as I've never played the DLC at all. (and I have time to wait before FO:NV activity settles down a bit)

Idem, I'm very interested in FONV btw. But I'm going to wait a bit reading the reviews, see what platform NV works best on, wait for updates and patches, etc.

I also had a little trouble with Mart's FO3 Arlington Cemetery Zombie mod, waaay too many feral ghouls I thought my laptop was going to melt because of the graphical resources it took. :laugh:

simple answer- if you don't like the game, don't play it

Just played a bit of FO3, almost done the 'retrieve valuable info from library book quest' for the wasteland survival guide.. blah blah.. and here is another thing that annoys the hell out of me for quite some time, even with mods.. that is the jumping mechanics of the game.. it feels like I drank a bottle of whiskey when jumping, especially in 3th person view. I seem to jump either too soon or too late and I always get stuck on the most ridiculous objects. :laugh:

If you're on PC, nearly everyone of these issues are fixed with mods. Go http://fallout3nexus.com/ and look around.

If you on X-Box or PS3 and that dissatisfied with the game, don't play the thing.