You mean like this mod? http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/71530/?

Oh, gods, please no. I loathed that artificial, arbitrary "tiered" system in Fallout 3. That's not how life works and that's not how a roleplaying game ought to work either.

In real life we can attempt to pick any lock but we will fail if we do not have the skill to pick the lock and if we do not have the right tools to pick the lock. A roleplaying game should allow us to try to pick any lock, but make it incredibly difficult (even, at times, impossible) to do so successfully until our characters have sufficient skill.

Let my character try anything and fail gloriously. To me, that is what the spirit of the Elder Scrolls series has always been about.

This is another of the beauties of Morrowinds system: our characters could attempt to cast a spell or make a potion or pick a lock that was too difficult for their skill level. But doing so also meant a higher chance of failure. That was a near-perfect system, in my opinion, and I grieve over its loss.

This

I too liked Mass Effects hacking way more than the hacking in Fallout... Well the prior Fallouts, idk what FO4 is like but judging by the prior versions I almost certainly like Mass Effects hacking more. I also think the TES games need so many improvements in other areas, that focusing on minigames really is the last thing that Bethesda should be spending development time and money on.

I find the minigames annoying and idiotic, and they rely on my skill, not my character's skill. These games are getting further away from roleplaying all the time. I can open any Fallout3 lock (that I'm permitted to try), without breaking a pick, regardless of my character's skill. Skyrim is a little harder, because it requires a lighter touch on the "screwdriver," but not much. I can usually get a Master lock open with no more than 3 or 4 picks, even with a Novice skill.

And you're telling me that if I lack the skill, I shouldn't be able to even stick a lockpick into a lock and break it? I think that's even sillier and more annoying.

I'd like to see non-essential locks (non-quest-related ones) that jam on broken picks, and become permanently unworkable. That's actually a lot more "realistic" outcome of sticking a piece of metal into a lock and breaking it off in there.

But I'd really like the minigames gone completely. In Morrowind, you didn't need a minigame. You took a lockpick in your hand, and you clicked it on the lock. Your character's skill determined the outcome. It wasn't boring at all, because you were doing it in real time, and you could be caught in the act. That's a lot less boring than doing a silly time-stopped minigame.

I'd personally just like to see both factors considered. We are, after all, playing our characters. I think that player skill should be a significant factor, but that character skill should be ultimately what controls how possible the player-guided action is. I think a minigame of sorts could still be included where character skill is the dominant factor, as well as where it takes place in real time and where you can see any enemies who may be converging on your location.

I don't think minigames as a whole are inherently problematic for the series. I think it's just about achieving the right balance without forsaking either player skill or character skill, while also portraying the minigame interface in real time.

I posted it in the difficulty topic, but I think that some (not all) puzzles in particular could benefit from a minigame-oriented interface if it were in real time and character skill were always something considered. The tricky part for this, would be how we could make an attribute such as Intelligence impact the minigame or effectiveness with it. I could conceive of other minigame puzzles where quickness/dexterity or strength would be the major factor in their completion as well, but I'm not sure of exact examples that could work well.

For the reason of variation, I'd be up for puzzles being categorized. Some could involve minigames, some could involve sequential or reactionary things, some could function more like riddles or abstract things, and then some could be more basic (AKA Skyrim's door puzzles, etc.).

I'm not sure Player Skill is the right term... More, Player Agency. We, as the player, should be deciding what to do and when. Whether that's lifting the tumbler in a lock, swinging a sword, hitting on a prosttute or drowning a child (Bethesda needs to get over their 'Mature Content' fear...) It should always be the player making the decision. How well that decision plays out, however, is entirely the domain of Character Skill.


I tend to agree, however. Minigames aren't the problem. And totally detached systems like Morrowind aren't the solution. They're just comming at things from the other extreme, taking away all but the most basic agency for the sake of Character Skill. And it's an inherently shaky philosophy, because it's not something you can apply across the board without rendering the entire gameplay into a point and click dice roll for everything. Not to mention that over reliance on Character Skill basically makes any sort of Puzzle a straight up Stat-Check.


Character Skill is there to guide the decisions and interactions of the player. It's not there to do everything for the player. True, every minigame so far has leaned way, WAY too far into the Player court, but reverting to a non-interactive spam-until-it-works system doesn't really fix anything either.

I pretty much completely agree with everything you've said in this.

I think I agree with you. I like your distinction between Player Agency and Player Skill, and my gripes about the minigames are purely about the Player Skill that they use. A perfect example of this is Fallout3's Hacking, where any player with an aptitude for wordplay can easily solve the problem.

I certainly didn't mean to hold up Morrowind's lockpicking as an example of "perfection." Clearly, wiggling a lockpick in the air in front of a door repeatedly is a pretty terrible representation of the action, and Player Agency could be brought in, in an interesting way, without removing Character Skill from overall control of the outcome.

My problem with minigames, in general, is the same problem I have with forced cutscenes, killcams, time-frozen inventories, and a whole host of other "interruptions" to the flow of the game. They take the player out of the immediacy of the player-character context, and remind me that "I'm playing a game."

I disagree with your first point, however I agree with your second!

morrowind's option would be better if the picking took a little longer per attempt, same with trap disarming. the open spell needs some taming too.

I wouldn't mind at all if we zoomed in on the lock, and could take a player poke at it that was fun to watch. To me, it would be better to see my character's hands actually messing with the lock, in real time, than to have a disembodied minigame lock-and-picks tied to my hand controls, interrupting the action.

yep agree with keeping it in real-time.

I wouldn't mind if it was just like a nonintrusive progress bar, taking a number of seconds to unlock depending on skill level. you can be interrupted by a guard, or angered citizen, or monster in dungeon, etc., and you can interrupt it yourself if you need to 'be cool' in front of a passerby.

skill would decrease how much time is needed to open a lock, and likewise, lock complexity would increase time needed. regular skill checks during the time would check to make sure the player is skilled enough, otherwise they fail the check and more time is added, or a pick breaks, or the lock jams. same with trap disarming - except maybe complex traps could trigger more than once to be a little more hazardous.

at least this way, character skill ultimately opens the lock, but player skill is needed to prevent getting caught or ambushed.

I love the hacking minigame in Fallout. My favorite hacking in any game. It actually involves logic and problem-solving skills... so it seems funny to hear everyone hating on it sometimes. Especially when it turns out they just pick words at random and back out before running out of tries. Elder Scrolls definitely doesn't need an equivalent, though, that would be really unnecessary.

Personally, I'm a fan of the minigames. They're exactly what I think an action-RPG should do in those cases - it honestly seems less RPGy to forgo them, since they're one of the few logical breaks from the action and exploration. Making it completely based on character skill svcks, since they should be focusing on more interactive systems for us to play with, not less. (and no, interactive systems does not just mean minigames.) It's too bad the minigames don't happen in real-time, though, I'm hoping that eventually happens.

To be honest the whole character skill vs player skill argument seems like it's missing the point to me. What I find enjoyable about RPGs isn't how my character's stats reflect what they can do, it's how I can interact with my environment and NPCs.

I like the notion of "feeling" for a lock's sweet spot. Maybe they can flesh this out a bit so more sophisticated locks require more player-input gestures rather than just making the sweet spot smaller.

I also am not a fan of hacking in Fallout 4. It's probably my least favorite mechanic in the entire game.

I don't think that minigames would inherently remind one that they're playing a game/would be immersion breaking, since as Glargg said, something like lockpicking could be done where it would show the character's hands, etc. I don't think there'd necessarily need to be some weird interface. It's personally not a big deal or immersion breaking to me but I can understand the sentiment.

I also agree that a lot of the player skill vs. character skill arguments are missing the point to an extent, but I feel like a lot of the divide comes from the fact that BGS's latest games have eliminated a large portion of character skill's role as a whole. I really do think, though, that both could be easily consolidated in a way that would appeal to the majority, except for those who are on radical sides of each (a major preference of character skill and little player skill vs. a major preference of player skill and little character skill). Either way, I think that if it swings too far in either direction, the games would be the worse for it.

But yeah, it's probably unlikely that they will attempt to meet this balance on each particular issue, unfortunately.

Just give us a way to skip the minigames if we don't want to do them for the ten hundredth time.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's perfect in any shape or form. I do prefer it though over simply clicking a button which equates to a dice roll. This is why I actually do like the ability to make my own attempt, to be one with my character, after all I am playing my character, not simply steering them from objective to objective.

I wasn't going to speak about ES lockpicking or any of those mechanics since it's a different game world and hence you should have differences but since you brought it up: I too would like to see failed spell castings in Elder Scrolls. When it comes to lock picking, I found Oblivion's system to be more challenging but having lock picking skill would make it easier. To be realistic in any role, even a master is going to break a few picks. So if Oblivion's system was made harder but your skill level made it slightly easier with each notch, getting to that fifth tumbler would eventually be doable, but at a low skill level it would be sheer impossible.


I just prefer to be actually *doing* something as part of my character, rather than a witness. If I want dice roll mechanics for absolutely everything, I'll go join my AD&D buddies and tell them to revive Cranar the Dragon Assassin.

1. Roleplaying takes many forms, and acting out something in roleplaying to be successful is still roleplaying. If you're talking strict dice roll mechanics, than there is a reason why they move away from that in certain areas.

2. I don't question player skills in a single player game, especially one that has difficultly sliders. Play your own way, kind of the foundation of the game.


3. Agreed. If hacking can be permanently locked, a lock should be permanently jammed (actually I know FO3 and Oblivion had this if you used the Force Lock button).


4. I agree that a stopped time minigame is not the answer. Real time would be better, and there needs to be adjustments within that game that take a heavier account into character skill to really adjust how easy or hard it is on the player. It's been a while since I played, but ESO lock picking was actually quite enjoyable.

pretty much how I view it right now. I want a real happy medium between the two that allows for a player skill to get involved, but the difficultly of the challenge is deeply affected by the character skill(s).


If I had to choose between complete detachment like Morrowind vs. the stopped minigame of Skyrim? I'll take Skyrim. This is why I do like FO3/4 better though because a character just can't try to pick any lock. For example, when I try to pick a Master lock and right now I can only attempt Expert, I don't see it as my character looked at the lock and said "that one is too hard for me, I won't even attempt". I see it as my character tried the lock and discovered it's too complicated for them.

Except player and character skill shouldn't have to be a one thing or the other scenario. I do think that, if my character is particularly bad when it comes to trying to pick locks, they shouldn't be able to the highest grade locks in the game, without steep consequences. That doesn't mean we should be locked out of any and all content that involves mastery in Security, and should have some avenue of approach, but I know that as the player, there isn't anything I can not do if the game mechanics allow me to do so. It stops about being able to grow and develop my character to get to certain levels of mastery, and more about how well I can cheese whatever mechanic I want.

That doesn't mean we should deal with static dice rolls either. Our character chances at attempting something (If it is something akin to Lockpicking) should be displayed, so we at least know what our actual chances of accomplishing something are. Beyond that, there needs to be some level of interactivity happening. Not enough that it completely overrides the characters investment in a Skill, rendering that mechanic in a Skill moot, but enough to at least nudge the chances in our favor. It should take place in real time, but I don't think it should be done entirely by the players hand. A timed mini-game of sorts, but nothing too strenuous as to be frustrating. And, if we decide not to partake in it, we can ignore it taking place without having to be unfairly punished for it and leave it entirely to the character.

Well, I think it's so much fun that it makes me want to hack my computer. With an axe.

I assume no one made that joke yet because it was too easy. Not for me, ladies and gentlemen, not for me.

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I have mixed feelings about minigames. They can be jarring but if done right, they can add a lot. Thief 3's lockpicking was one of the few good things in that game (well, if my memory serves me correctly). It was realtime too.

In my opinion, Skyrim's Smithing and Enchanting could have benefited from somekind of a minigame. For example, after finally unlocking one of the later perks, I would have felt more accomplishment from a minigame than just "click - Ebony Cuirass added." Of course, minigames for those two should just give a bonus to the item, so no Dragon bones/Grand Souls wasted for nothing. But then people would get annoyed because they didn't get the bonus... yeah, it's hard to do in a way that satisfies all.

But that's the fastest way to do it! Also, I have my own, would I say, very scientific method to it, thankyouverymuch. 3 from the bottom right. Exit. 3 from the bottom right. Exit. 3 from the bottom right. Exit. 3 from the bottom right. Exit. 3 from the bott- YES.

Seriously though, I actually scored the worst out of my class in a memory test about numbers and letters.

I am not really a fan of minigames in general, but I too love the Fallout computer hacking minigame. My favorite minigame in any series. I like it for the same reasons as you -- logic and problem solving skills, and love the old school sounds and monitor during the game. Reminds me of my old Apple II+.