[XPidgex Jefferson]

As we have had many threads about the possibility of adding multiplayer to Fallout 3 or future Fallout games we have decided to make an official discussion thread for the topic. Any other threads made about multiplayer will be locked and the discussion redirected here. If you beat a moderator to such a thread and want to post this link that's great, but please remember to be courteous about it.

Furthermore, let me remind everyone to keep this discussion civil and within the rules. This is an occasionally volatile topic, we all need to put some effort into keeping the discussion cool and level-headed. If you strongly dislike multiplayer than I'd suggest keeping out of the discussion.

A few points to remember:

• Bethesda will not be adding multiplayer to Fallout 3. Asking for it to be added isn't terribly productive, however if you want to discuss what it could potentially be like that's fine.
  
  
• Multiplayer is not something that can be easily plugged into a game, particularly not one that's already finished. Many people underestimate how difficult it can be to incorporate multiplayer code, build up the multiplayer options, and streamline the game for smooth online play. Even for a game in development adding multiplayer requires a significant amount of resources and manpower. In the past Bethesda has said that they'd rather focus on making great single-player games with all of their energy going to adding to this aspect, rather than dividing their focus by including multiplayer.
  
  
• While it is unlikely that multiplayer will be added in future games in this series, it is still a legitimate topic of discussion. This thread is here specifically to allow this topic of discussion, there's nothing to gain by being contentious or telling people not to discuss this because it won't happen. Disparaging the idea will be considered flaming.
  
  
• Multiplayer comes in many shapes and sizes: arena-style combat, cooperative, trading, etc. and it can be very helpful to be specific if you do not intend to discuss multiplayer simply in abstract terms. This obviously isn't a requirement; it is simply a suggestion to help limit confusion and misunderstanding.
  
  
• This thread is not for discussing Fallout MMOs, nor is it appropriate to discuss Bethesda's licensing of the MMO rights to Interplay.
  
  
• The moderators are not privy to information that hasn't been released to the public.

[Suzy Santana]

Thank you for making this clear, hopefully there will be alot less griping now about multiplayer!

While I think it would be neat, I would rather have a Better game to play than have a mediocre game with multiplayer - there are already alot of those type of FPS games out there.

Lack of multiplayer means we will get the next game Sooner, which I'm all for!

Cheers,

M

[Tania Bunic]

Thank you for making this clear, hopefully there will be alot less griping now about multiplayer!

That's our hope as well

While I think it would be neat, I would rather have a Better game to play than have a mediocre game with multiplayer - there are already alot of those type of FPS games out there.

Agree, having multiplayer "tacked on" just seems like a poor return for the amount of effort it would require, but the more time spent developing MP in to something better the less time you have for general game features and what not.

[Scott Clemmons]

It might help clearing up some confusion by adding the link to Oblivion Online's Moddb profile: http://www.moddb.com/mods/obliviononline

(The actual homepage of the project is down)

It is the best attempt at making Oblivion multiplayer, and as Fallout 3 basically uses the same engine, it would be possible in theory to make a port of this program to Fallout 3.
This would of course not help the problem with making V.A.T.S work in mutliplayer, but it is non the less a great example that hopefully should keep some mouths shut who claim that it would be impossible to add any multiplayer mode at all to Fallout 3.

[James Shaw]

It might help clearing up some confusion by adding the link to Oblivion Online's Moddb profile: http://www.moddb.com/mods/obliviononline

(The actual homepage of the project is down)

It is the best attempt at making Oblivion multiplayer, and as Fallout 3 basically uses the same engine, it would be possible in theory to make a port of this program to Fallout 3.
This would of course not help the problem with making V.A.T.S work in mutliplayer, but it is non the less a great example that hopefully should keep some mouths shut who claim that it would be impossible to add any multiplayer mode at all to Fallout 3.

I'm not going to link to this (or the Morrowind equivalent) in the opening post, but I don't have a problem with this being discussed (although I have to agree that VATS would be quite an obstacle).

Although there are occasional threads in the modding forums about this (I redirected a few here when I put it up) most discussions are asking that the devs officially release multiplayer support. Because of that there's be something of a conflict in the opening post as Bethesda has stated that they will not be adding multiplayer to Fallout 3.

[April D. F]

im all for multiplayer but as long as it's good... and i just dont see how they can incorparate [spelling?] multiplayer into these types of RPGs.

ps. shouldnt this be pinned?

[Arrogant SId]

ps. shouldnt this be pinned?

We rarely pin open discussions, in part due to the 200 post cap and in part because pinned threads have a habit of being "invisible" as people get used to skipping over them.

[Stat Wrecker]

Fallout 3 would be the perfect game if it had cooperative multiplayer capabilities. So would Oblivion, and honestly I would play Morrowind all over again if a cooperative multiplayer version came out. Cooperative Multiplayer games are a fantastic way for me to spend time with my wife and kids. We really bond together as a family when we can go on quests, etc. It's a fun experience.

Incomprehensibly, there are no moddable fantasy 1st/3rd person perspective cooperative multiplayer games available in the industry, save for perhaps NWN2, which unfortunately is a turn based game and does not have the action flow that my kids and I enjoy. The first game that comes out with these capabilities, if properly implemented, will make a fortune. Everything else that seems to be available is a MMORPG, which is sad to me as I have no interest in playing with strangers, and I've never seen a MMORPG that was moddable in any supported capacity.

Dungeon Lords was unfortunately very bugged on release, but it was a good example of what can be done with cooperative multiplayer over a LAN. If it had been moddable, I would still be playing it with my family, bugs and all.

I love VATS but would trade it in an instant for cooperative multiplayer capabilities for Fallout 3.

[Kerri Lee]

Fallout 3 would be the perfect game if it had cooperative multiplayer capabilities. So would Oblivion, and honestly I would play Morrowind all over again if a cooperative multiplayer version came out. Cooperative Multiplayer games are a fantastic way for me to spend time with my wife and kids. We really bond together as a family when we can go on quests, etc. It's a fun experience.

Incomprehensibly, there are no moddable fantasy 1st/3rd person perspective cooperative multiplayer games available in the industry, save for perhaps NWN2, which unfortunately is a turn based game and does not have the action flow that my kids and I enjoy. The first game that comes out with these capabilities, if properly implemented, will make a fortune. Everything else that seems to be available is a MMORPG, which is sad to me as I have no interest in playing with strangers, and I've never seen a MMORPG that was moddable in any supported capacity.

Dungeon Lords was unfortunately very bugged on release, but it was a good example of what can be done with cooperative multiplayer over a LAN. If it had been moddable, I would still be playing it with my family, bugs and all.

I love VATS but would trade it in an instant for cooperative multiplayer capabilities for Fallout 3.

I have to agree with your intent 1000%, my family all games and it would be much fun to hang out in the wasteland with my family (Goto your Shack or I'll put a 44 into your A**!) lol

But I think you hit it on the head with the fact that no such games exist at the Quality/Depth of Fallout3 with the on-line capabilities of games like NWN and World of Warcraft. My own opinion of why has very much to do with the technology challenges, not with choices by Bethesda or other game makers.

As mentioned it takes ALOT of code to do multiplayer (anything) right, and doing it right means not transmitting every bit and frame over the wire. Its Awesomely complex how game makers have to transmit the game's interpretation of everything that's happening in a short amount of data, so that latency is not a problem. This challenge goes all the way back to Quake 1 - the first true multi-player game that actually put controlled alot of graphical action Well, and I have to give ID alot of kudo's for that. It was really after Quake 1 that the explosion of FPSs really began in earnest.

At the same time it takes Mountains of code to do a game as complex and sophisticated as Fallout3 is. So much going on in the world, so many different (and even un-related to the player) actions that take place, and so many objects in free motion on the screen - it all still blows my mind how well the game creates the sense of immersion.

The bottom line is that no game maker today has had the time, money and motivation to combine a game like Fallout3 with a really Good multi-player system. The Good news is that with the speed of broadband going up and the costs coming down, it is becoming more realistic for game makers to think about pushing huge amounts of data across the wire Fast. The Bad news is that no one (including Bethesda) has plans to build an Open RPG at and FPS combined into a multi-player game. I think it is technically possible to do now, but would take so much development resources that we would end up paying $100 bucks per game for gamesas to break even - and I don't think those cost models really work so well.

I predict we will see such games in 3-5 years time, when more companies can build games to Bethesda's quality and combine the MMO aspects to it. Of course by then gamesas will have Oblivion 4 or something else super-cool out that has us all hooked - so who knows.

M

[Amy Smith]

I thin it could work in a game like tactics, but not work too well in the classic storyline way. There would have to be a reason for a team to set out from the beginning.

[Noely Ulloa]

I've enjoyed multi-player games but the more I've played FO3 the more I'm convinced it's only suitable as a single player, it's not just the story line and quests, it's something more personal, for instance you place your character in a safe location where you can hang out for a little while, maybe you have just taken this quiet opportunity to make a drink or head to the bathroom, in multi-player I've done this and returned to messages like "where were you" or the other player did something silly that got your character killed, FO3 for me represents a personal game, my game.

But if you want technical, I've been modding using GECK, after seeing the what's involved modding multi-player would be a headache even for a team working on it.

multi-player is great in the correct setting, I just don't believe FO3 is that setting.

[Lady Shocka]

So lets say for sake of argument that we've accomplished a two player multiplayer mode that's stable
:lmao:

Right.
Using some existing mods (settler, enclave commander, MMM and a few others) you almost* have the makings of a RPG/RTS crossover. Where your character is the commander and hero, and so is you opponents character for his or her side. As your character grows in level, he obtains more capabilities, units types, building types and so on. Also, depending on which direction the character evolves in, different kinds of units/building could be availible.
Yes it's do-able.
Yes it's more work than the piramides.
No, I don't see it happening soon, if ever.


*maybe 40%? 30%??
Acolyte started thinking about something and now his head hurts

[Destinyscharm]

I think if done right this could be the best thing to happen to f3. Think about it as 2 player coop not an mmo. an mmo would fail miserably. Now keep the game the exact same as it is now but add a coop option. So since the game is the same it wouldnt matter if you were of the party who didnt want coop, you could still play the same game. For coop, simply make it drop in drop out style. If you wanna team up with your friend invite them and let them play. For those who dont like trusting someone not to kill allies, there could be a safety button similar to fable that prevents them from harming civs if you see fit to do so. Take vats out of coop mode because it would be quite boring to sit there watching someone decide where to shoot. Expecially with grim reapers sprint. For the pip boy pause time, simply make it so when using pip boy time does not pause so u must get your team mate to cover you. Allow stimpacks and rad away to be hot keyed for maximum effieciency. also make host the only one allowed to talk with people. Secondary player can still use shop when host is talking to a trader. These modifications could easily provide a perfect coop experience. So consider that.

[QuinDINGDONGcey]

The problem I have with Multiplayer is that there is an abundance of good multiplayer (co-op) or otherwise out there. Yet you need magnifying glass to find any good purely single player games, nevermind roleplaying games.

Most single player games are now being made co-op or vs, whatever form of multiplayer it takes, and in my expierence it has been to the detriment of the single player story and/or gameplay and/or length and in the case of RE5 playabilty.

It seems to me that when this is added to any established single player franchise it leads to the companies being destracted from what made said series great and too much time and resources in setting up suitable framework for online play, multiplayer script etc.

This is most likely because of xbox live etc multiplayer is now the money maker and alot of people will not buy a game that is not multiplayer, so called "casual" gamers if you wish to tag them.

To summise i am against this because it will lead to the inevitable demise of another one of my favourite franchises.

Ofcourse this is just my opinon but i hope i have laid it out well enough that you see my rationale.

[Alba Casas]

The problem I have with Multiplayer is that there is an abundance of good multiplayer (co-op) or otherwise out there. Yet you need magnifying glass to find any good purely single player games, nevermind roleplaying games.

Most single player games are now being made co-op or vs, whatever form of multiplayer it takes, and in my expierence it has been to the detriment of the single player story and/or gameplay and/or length and in the case of RE5 playabilty.

It seems to me that when this is added to any established single player franchise it leads to the companies being destracted from what made said series great and too much time and resources in setting up suitable framework for online play, multiplayer script etc.

This is most likely because of xbox live etc multiplayer is now the money maker and alot of people will not buy a game that is not multiplayer, so called "casual" gamers if you wish to tag them.

To summise i am against this because it will lead to the inevitable demise of another one of my favourite franchises.

Ofcourse this is just my opinon but i hope i have laid it out well enough that you see my rationale.

See, I find there is a ridiculous lack of good multiplayer coop games. There are a great deal of competitive ones, but when it comes to teaming up and completing the story, there are very very few choices.

Fallout 3 if done properly would be an excellent coop game. Fallout Tactics also had the potential to be exceptionally good in this regard, but unfortunately they limited it to competitive matches only, and failed to follow up on the game with sequels.

[Erich Lendermon]

I could see potential in having a co-op Fallout game, but I also don't necessarily see why it would need to be implemented in Fallout 4 over a spin-off game designed from the ground up to be a co-op type of game. Game design-wise, it just seems better to make a game that is from the start supposed to be a co-op game, than to take a single-player game and try to cram it into a multiplayer-shaped hole.

[Kevin Jay]

The problem I have with Multiplayer is that there is an abundance of good multiplayer (co-op) or otherwise out there. Yet you need magnifying glass to find any good purely single player games, nevermind roleplaying games.

Most single player games are now being made co-op or vs, whatever form of multiplayer it takes, and in my expierence it has been to the detriment of the single player story and/or gameplay and/or length and in the case of RE5 playabilty.

It seems to me that when this is added to any established single player franchise it leads to the companies being destracted from what made said series great and too much time and resources in setting up suitable framework for online play, multiplayer script etc.

This is most likely because of xbox live etc multiplayer is now the money maker and alot of people will not buy a game that is not multiplayer, so called "casual" gamers if you wish to tag them.

To summise i am against this because it will lead to the inevitable demise of another one of my favourite franchises.

Ofcourse this is just my opinon but i hope i have laid it out well enough that you see my rationale.

Where are all these Fallout3-like Coop Multiplayer RPG games that you are talking about? I would love to see a list. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, I would really, really love to find a game with the following features:

- 1st/3rd person perspective (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind)
- are NOT turn based or MMORPG (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind)
- are fully coop over a LAN
- are as moddable as Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind
- are RPGs and not just brainless shooters (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind).

I spend a lot of time looking, and there are ZERO. Nothing. It is maddening. There exists several good/ok games like NWN2, Titan Quest, Silverfall, Dungeon Siege I and II, but they are all point-and-click games at heart. And you can't tell me how impossible that it is to create a game with the above mentioned features, because it has already been done (ie Dungeon Lords). It just hasn't been done well, or with modding capabilities. I'm so tired of looking for a game that I've started working on my own using the unreal engine, but I won't be done any time soon. I wish there was something ready to go for my family and I to play.

[Channing]

Where are all these Fallout3-like Coop Multiplayer RPG games that you are talking about? I would love to see a list. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, I would really, really love to find a game with the following features:

- 1st/3rd person perspective (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind)
- are NOT turn based or MMORPG (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind)
- are fully coop over a LAN
- are as moddable as Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind
- are RPGs and not just brainless shooters (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind).

I spend a lot of time looking, and there are ZERO. Nothing. It is maddening. There exists several good/ok games like NWN2, Titan Quest, Silverfall, Dungeon Siege I and II, but they are all point-and-click games at heart. And you can't tell me how impossible that it is to create a game with the above mentioned features, because it has already been done (ie Dungeon Lords). It just hasn't been done well, or with modding capabilities. I'm so tired of looking for a game that I've started working on my own using the unreal engine, but I won't be done any time soon. I wish there was something ready to go for my family and I to play.

Your right, you wont find any game meeting those criterion, and I would myself add the criteria that the game has to be As Good As Fallout3 - but thats just crazy talk on my part now.

No such game exists - but someday I expect we will get to that point. Actually I think the MMO's will reach the level a level of sophistication in time that their graphics and gameplay will be Close to current Fallout3 levels, but I also think that companies like Bethesda will keep making better and better single-player games - so there will likely be the same mix of games in the future too - just at a higher scale. In the future you'll get your Fallout3-style-MMO wish, but by then Bethesda will be wowing our socks off with the next game(s).

Someday we will reach parity, but I don't see that for a long-long time. MMO's don't need Super graphics to keep millions of players (Look at Wow), because people who love MMO's don't play those games for the graphics - they play them for the social/community/PK/Human aspects of the game which MMO's do Very well these days. Having ran Sojourn/Toril for a decade in the days of Zork and DIKU, I think the MMO's get very high marks for how far they have come.

At the same time people who love single player games and crave super-technology, super-graphics and all the bells and whistles - they don't care As Much about MMO-type code. If they did, there would be a strong-enough market for both to encourage companies to take the time to make $100 dollar games that can do both. But that market does not exist, and the financial times don't make me feel like the day of $100 games (and more) is anywhere near at hand with the technology your seeking.

Sorry for the bad news, but that's really where we are IMHO.

Cheers,

M

[marina]

I would love to see Fallout work its way into a multiplayer capable game. I don't expect it to be retroactively added to any of the games currently available as I understand that a program to add in multiplayer stuff would take significant time and resources. But, for future games I think it's something that should be looked into. In a way, it could be similar to how Resident Evil 5 included it. The game is fully available and playable and 100% completable (not the cause in Resident Evil, but hang with me) in single player but have the option to invite some friends who have completed say a tutorial and character molding portion of the quest so that their characters will import...but keep it basic as in...the items they carry over would be limited to maybe just weapons current in their packs. This way playing with someone else would 1.) maybe not make the game easier but give you a little more comfort for say storming the deathclaw sanctuary and 2.) due to the presence of another person leveling up and item scavenging would reflect using 2 people because it isn't just you picking everything up. Or make a co-op option from the start screen to have someone else join from the beginning, whether you are twins or simply friends, it wouldn't matter as long as it made since in the world. May be a longshot, but oh well I'm going to keep hoping because it's something i think everyone would enjoy

[Trey Johnson]

Where are all these Fallout3-like Coop Multiplayer RPG games that you are talking about? I would love to see a list. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, I would really, really love to find a game with the following features:

- 1st/3rd person perspective (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind)
- are NOT turn based or MMORPG (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind)
- are fully coop over a LAN
- are as moddable as Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind
- are RPGs and not just brainless shooters (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind).

I spend a lot of time looking, and there are ZERO. Nothing. It is maddening. There exists several good/ok games like NWN2, Titan Quest, Silverfall, Dungeon Siege I and II, but they are all point-and-click games at heart. And you can't tell me how impossible that it is to create a game with the above mentioned features, because it has already been done (ie Dungeon Lords). It just hasn't been done well, or with modding capabilities. I'm so tired of looking for a game that I've started working on my own using the unreal engine, but I won't be done any time soon. I wish there was something ready to go for my family and I to play.

I was not referring to RPG genre specifically i was saying i have seen alot of my favourite franchises crash and burn(in my eyes) when they went co-op.

Anyway a rpg does not lend itself to being co-op, but that won't stop people trying because it will sell no matter how crap it is.
The mantra seems to be with the generation coming up with gaming now is if it aint co-op or vs then its crap. They ruined resident evil, they ruined call of duty(when it decided single player campaigns don't mean crap), it's beginning to eat at gta (a fully co-op version will be next i stake my house on it). All games that were intended to be mainly single player but got sidetracked by the co-op and vs or whatever bandwagon.


Very few good single player games these days of ANY genre, i pray that they won't take away my rpgs aswell.

Gaming in my eyes is already in a dangerous decline for so called 'core gamers' because of the advent of the Wii and xbox live.

Ofcourse i may be wrong and i'm probably one of the only people that does not like co-op being implemented in games to the neglect of other things in a game.

Hell i just want to have my 2 hours of videogaming everyday without some 12 year old shouting W00T or random expletives in some Darwinian decline to caveman times.

[Thomas LEON]

I would rather have a great single palyer game than a crappy single player with a crapped on multi player. I think a multiplayer that would work would be something like you could see another player join your world and see them in thier armor and weapons and you could trade with them, however whatever they did in thier world did not affect yours. and vice versa. Ex: you see a teddy bear on the ground, you pick it up. Your friend in the game sees you pick it up but on his game its still there. Not all NPC locations would have to be the same either, Another Ex: a molerat in the wasteland your buddy sees, he can shoot and kill but the mole rat may not be in the same area or even on your screen at all. Sort of like the orbs in fable 2 but except them bieng orbs they be the players character and with his armor and weapon.

[Facebook me]

A multiplayer option would be cool, what are the chances it could be implemented in the same way that rockstar did with GTA 4? (thinking of the freeplay multiplayer mode not deathmatches etc)

[Mizz.Jayy]

Where are all these Fallout3-like Coop Multiplayer RPG games that you are talking about? I would love to see a list. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, I would really, really love to find a game with the following features:

- 1st/3rd person perspective (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind)
- are NOT turn based or MMORPG (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind)
- are fully coop over a LAN
- are as moddable as Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind
- are RPGs and not just brainless shooters (like Fallout3/Oblivion/morrowind).

I spend a lot of time looking, and there are ZERO. Nothing. It is maddening. There exists several good/ok games like NWN2, Titan Quest, Silverfall, Dungeon Siege I and II, but they are all point-and-click games at heart. And you can't tell me how impossible that it is to create a game with the above mentioned features, because it has already been done (ie Dungeon Lords). It just hasn't been done well, or with modding capabilities. I'm so tired of looking for a game that I've started working on my own using the unreal engine, but I won't be done any time soon. I wish there was something ready to go for my family and I to play.

Borderlands has a lot of those aspects i think. It's not out yet like but still, to my knowledge it has 1st/3rd person perspective, NOT turn based, fully coop over LAN, i think it's a 360 game so i dunno about modding, and it's an RPG, sorta Action/Adventure like.

[N Only WhiTe girl]

I would love some sort of multiplayer component in Bethesda's next game (Fallout or Elder Scrolls)

As long as it stuck to a co-op and/or arena variant I believe it would be very popular

Co-op I think would be the most difficult to implement but it (in my opinion) would be the funnest because me and my friends LOVE Fallout and TES even though we play by taking turns it is very entertaining but it would be 10 times better playing at the same time developing tactics/strategies and other fun ways to play the game.

An Arena type versus would also be very difficult because many people would go with High level Characters and the best equipment and it would get old fast but if there was a way to control this from becoming too common (or have you matched with similar level characters) it would be very entertaining.

[Emma Louise Adams]

I heard about that for the PC version someone payed someone a $1000 to make a mod that can host up to 10 players through ip/lan or whatever. Apparantly it was made for the traditional sort of going around questing, hunting down some Enclave maybe, not just a pin 5 against 5 and battle. Although i suppose they could do that anyway.
The information was pretty limited and even though the guy who said it seemed to be pretty dodgey it seemed legit. Said it would come out sometime in august when it was finished.

Oh and he said VATs where disabled. People comeplain about that a lot, just thought i'd stop you in your tracks before you do.