Actually, it's not. If you run the program you will see the city is static and the same every time you run it.

Nevermind the fact that it has a very long loading time for what it is and has zero detail or clutter and is nothing but clean flat textures.

I have run the program, and yes it is a static city... :shrug:

On a completely unrelated note: Bicycle repairman spoof (should have been the encounter at the Red Racer factory), Psyco dad encounter, and a better tribute to HAL in Robco/Vault-tech buildings.

Gizmo, how much work would what you suggest take to produce a consistently interesting result?
I personally like it a lot... (I even did my thesis on 'randomness' - including procedural generations and the like)

I don't disagree that it would be a good idea to have a gameworld generated in such a way, nor I doubt that it's possible.
What I doubt though, is whether it's necessary...
I mean, whether it's necessary to have a procedurally generated and explorable world with certain predefined areas in it... it seems to me more trouble than it's worth.

That's because, it's not enough to have another town like like Megaton popping up, it should also have it's own interesting procedurally generated 'story' to make it different from the previous town like like Megaton and as important to the game as the pre-constructed Megaton. Otherwise it's just scenery, and as such not worthy of lengthy exploration never mind how non-repetitive they may be.

Really? You don't see how "bland" and "desolate" could be taken as "empty" and boring?" You think "bland" and "desolate" sounds like a real hot time? If you set out to create a big, bland, and desolate wasteland, then everyone will use the world map. Everyone. It will be a complete waste of time.

If you set out to create an entirely procedurally generated wasteland that is fun to explore, then it probably still won't be as fun as a smaller hand-crafted wasteland (Although, I admit that's just an opinion. I'm not a big Elite fan), and the process will no doubt shift the emphasis away from the towns and other hand-crafted areas.

I don't see how you can possibly say that there's no cost. Certainly, a huge hand-crafted wasteland would require more time and disk-space (and probably yield a more interesting product) than a procedurally-generated world. But creating a handful of repeating backdrops just to house random encounters would be a lot easier than either of those options. You can use procedural generation to make a ton of something while saving time and resources. But why would you even want to make a ton of something that isn't beneficial? If your wasteland is just there so you can say it is there, or to circumvent some character stats for players with inhuman patience, then it is probably a waste of everyone's time.

set it in england in london or somwere in england that would be could the england vault tec company

I wanna see it somewhere in the Northern U.S. Im thinking a forest of some kind. Some mutated plants would be sic if done correctly.

I think they could, and if designed with configurable detail... I think it could just be another slider in the settings menu (and that could mean better results with better hardware, and be neat to try it out on a machine from five years later).

It is filler... I don't think it could (or should) be used for major areas like Rivet City, DC, or Megaton... but could perhaps be used to create something similar to Canterbury Commons or the train yard, or blocks of wrecked house frames & debris.

As for building interiors... I dunno. I can visualize the idea of a PC going up to a building and trying to enter it, and the game generating a floor plan from tiles, that fits inside the interior space, instead of loading a level for it.
(the reverse actually, because it could perhaps write back the level to disk, and reload it every time you entered the same building.)
Content wise in these buildings, I think would get repetitive quick if it were more than just trashed rooms and possible scavengers ~that in itself would get repetitive too, but less so than if the rooms were neat and all too similar. (But I'm all for a clever method of generating more detailed areas).

Another option might be a selection of pre-fab encounters that could be applied to a procedural location... Imagine the player enters a generic large building, the game creates the interior floor plan, then applies an encounter to it (spawning a group of NPC's that are digging up the basemant searching for something, and spawning the custom basemant room that goes with them).

The proper way to interpret that quote is "Though I myself would prefer a less crowded barren waste, there is no reason that it must be so"; It could equally be just as it is in FO3 right now ~More large predators per hundred yards than some rainforrests.
*That could even be a slider itself... to configure the density of hostile encounters in the wastes

Now that would indeed be repetitive and quickly stale. I never implied a handfull of repeating back drops. :shrug: ~You might be thinking that if you pass 5 train yards on the trip, that they would be 5 identical train yards instead of 5 unique train yards using the same tile set. Making the functionality to span the distance between cities with procedural content, just allows for the game to better emulate the rest of the series (but in realtime 3d).

Elderscrolls is about roaming the landscape, Fallout was more of a Town to town style of play where the wastelands were in the way, but were a place you could find yourself if you were mugged, or stumbled upon something really odd. This could allow Fallout 4 to do the same.

If you want to see how this might work, there is such a feature in Anarcy Online (the game is free now). One can go to a quest generator device, select features using sliders, and the game will generate a private instance using one of a few "tiles".

The end result is some randomness, but after awhile, it all looks the same. The only way I can see to avoid the "sameness" is to have a large number of graphics assets, and it's the graphics assets that take the most time to create. You have to be willing to deal with that "sameness"....it was one of the major failings of Oblivion as well.

Making a program that can generate a busy and interesting wasteland would be even more time consuming than making a program that generates a bland and desolate wasteland. It's not that it can't be done. They could make Daggerfall with guns and have procedurally generated towns, quests, and NPCs. However, that obviously shifts the focus of the game. If the guys that made Fallout spent more time worrying about what happens between towns, they would have had less time to worry about what happens in a town.

No, I was talking about the way that it was handled in the original Fallout games. They used a handful of repeating backdrops. I guess more backdrops would have been nice, but more quests would have been nicer.

It wouldn't be as efficient as Fallout's original style if only because it is a more elaborate setup for something that could be done well with a few repeating areas. What you are suggesting would make more sense in a game that seeks to adopt Bethesda's emphasis on exploration rather than the original's. If you really wanted to render a state-sized territory that is fun to explore, then procedurally-generated content is a must. But if you just want to render a state-sized territory that is bland and desolate, well, don't bother because no one is going to bother exploring it outside of the usermap.

Actually I'd think that once made the program could do either with ease.
(and the only reason I suggested it at all, was Bethesda's penchant for "must see it" style games where subtle assumes can't make a dent). This would work. This could possibly work well (and if done cleverly, would greatly increase the player's sense of "immersion", and allow more time for "set piece" content, while simultaneously following the intents of the series just a bit closer, and expanding the explorable land mass tremendously). :shrug:
~or could instead be talked out of trying it.

I'm actually of two minds about the scope of the world for this hypothetical Fallout 4.

On the one hand - I can't actually see anyone physically walking from end of that map to the other, in real-time. Regardless of procedural or modelled implementation - there's no way that's not going to get boring. I can't imagine anyone would have the stamina for the amount of real-time exploring that would make something like that useful. Sure, I could see stepping out of a Vault, being blown away by the scope of your freedom, and setting off for some far-off location that you're not going to reach for hours yet. But half an hour of auto-walk later, I'd bet most people would break down and fast-travel to where they were going.

Thinking of this, I remember the years I spent playing Eve Online. I mean, if you want to talk about a large-scale map with effectively infinite playable area... It could take me all day for me to work out a route to, and then travel to, my destination. And there was lots of potential for interesting things to happen along the way. I actually think it worked well in that game, but it was all tied into the gameplay. The game wouldn't have worked the same if you could just hit a button and fast-travel across the map to where you were going. I'm not sure that there's as much of a compelling reason to do something like that in Fallout 4.

But, on the other hand - I'm still in favor of procedurally increasing the playable size of the world map, for Fallout 4. I'm just thinking of something that's smaller than Fallout 1's, yet larger than Fallout 3's. Small enoungh that it doesn't feel like it's just a bunch of "nothing," but big enough to feel that sense of desolation, and to be able to cover a larger area, realistically. And... I was also thinking - if we were going to do that, then why not also give players the option to spend 24 walking between towns, if that's what they felt like doing? It'd be a lot more like an old-school RPGer, doing that (completely optional, of course,) trek - basically passing from random encounter to random encounter and rely on emergent storytelling to provide the variety.

Another idea I had was maybe transplant some of the ideas from Fallout 1 - a series of "nodes" that would be modelled out, connected by areas that you'd in general just be fast-travelling to and from. With the option to procedurally walk there if you just happened to feel like it. You could make use of that model to allow more rnadom encounters, as well. (I think this is basically Gizmo's idea, though if I were a betting man, I wouldn't put much money on this outcome.)

Another thing I thought might possibly be interesting would be a world map that was kind of split in two. Each "half" of the map would be totally hand-modelled (or whatever - it doesn't really matter, and it's simply not that hard either way,) and together could equal something close to Fallout 3. Between those, however, would be a vast expanse of wasteland or something. I wouldn't make a big deal about travelling through that area, or make it something you had to spend a whole ton of time worrying about. But honestly, my favorite memories of any of the three games, still has to be setting out from the Den to try and reach Vault City without dying. It often took a lot of tries, but I don't think anything has ever so succesfully hit the nail on the head to really drive home that sense of trying to survive in a dangerous world gone mad. That was always a real struggle for me, at a relatively low level, and with limited equipment.

I'd be all for anything that could give me that same sense again. And frankly, I don't see Bethesda being able to give me that if they stick with their current methods. Because in Fallout 3, if I ever got in that big of a jam, I could just fast-travel back to safety. And even I played with "no fast travel," (which isn't personally my cup of tea,) it still never felt like that epic of a trek - because I never had very far to go in Fallout 3.

My point isn't about longer distances. It's about that few will actually walk the distance if the map is massive. It's less wasteful to have world map to do so.


Because it isn't.
The Fallout 1 and 2 world map is essentially fast traveling with random encounters.
You on the other hand seem to be suggesting a state sized map, with miles the PC has to cross at normal speed before he gets to a new point of interest with (presuming I understand you) as much encounters as Fallout 1 had. This gets old really fast and would probably only appeal to a small group of players who are okay with just walking around for a while. As nice a gimmick as it sounds I don't think it would be worth the effort.


I'm currently between two models on this:
Either expand the map a bit so things aren't as clustered and close to each other, whether through procedural or non-procedural terrain. The pacing would have to reflect this as well, meaning no more finding deathclaws over the crest at which base you just killed giant scorpions. The map would be one and a half or two times the size it is currently for the sake of not coming across a point of interest every few steps and have towns be more distant.

The other model employs a world map. You can now have a huge terrain and cross it relatively fast, because traveling over the world map accelerates the time(fast travel).
Map markers are towns and sites of interest with their surrounding area. The surrounding areas would allow for exploration on "foot" (in FPP) with quest and none quest related buildings, dungeons or ruins.
The world map has random encounters and procedural generated terrain for those encounters. Getting at the edge of your FPP map would prompt a choice of turning back or exiting to the world map.

I personally have thought it might be cool that traveling across the world map required some planning. Either you move with a caravan (for a price) and you'll have the benefit of protection and supplies or go out yourself and make sure you have the appropriate things to survive the trek (water, food and weapons). Perhaps a decision between speed and safety (arrive faster, but have a higher chance of encounters).

I see your point, but there certainly isn't any lack of new raiders, supermutants, etc showing up. If those can pop up, it shouldn't be much of a stretch for there to be new civilized people as well.

I had an idea for a Fallout Britain. Here are the main settlements.

Nuevo Gorro
A small town, focused around a bottle cap-producing factory and the surrounding houses. Also home to gang violence, organised crime, drugs and prostitution.
History:
Nuevo Gorro was founded by the Mitchells clan, Waters clan and Martinez clan shortly after the bombs dropped. A small factory, they converted into a factory where they made whatever they needed. Eventually, the Martinez clan leader, Tomas, had an idea: to forge caps and make illegal, exotic substances and such on the lines. The Matthews originally hesitated, but the Waters and Martinez clans began reaping off easy profits and expanding their influence. However, the Martinez clan became dictatorial, and feeling suppressed and greedy, Michael Waters Jr. killed the elderly Tomas and ejected the Martinez clan from the town. The Waters clan, now focused almost exclusively on making money (but a couple of assembly lines make other things out of a mixture of erasing suspicions, having a pie in every market and placating the poor employees), has reduced the small, weary Mitchells clan to holding the now weak position of town Mayor. Salvatore Mitchells is, or was, trying hard to resist the crime wave.
NOTES:
This town is subject to the most change. Aside from the currency of the game idea and the name of the town being under serious review (I was thinking the return of ring pulls?) the economic impact of the town (hyperinflation?) is also a concern for me. Post-War London has an unstable economy and an unstable, unofficial currency, so the fake stuff being introduced will definitely cause problems. A character from Trafalgar Vault will want the factory down, but the economic impacts still remain.

Coach Town
History: When the bombs hit so many years ago, a school coach of teenage children travelling through northern suburban London was spared. The children, the guardians, some family members, and survivors from the surrounding area bonded together to make this community, now one of the biggest and most successful. Made out of some still standing suburban houses and buildings, and the town hall and common house made out of the large coach remnants.
NOTES:
One of the most normal towns in the Wastes, the coaches MAY go, but the teenagers being the founders will remain.

Ringwoude
The Thames Barrier managed to survive the war, and due to a mixture of intense heat and climate change, most of the Thames became a series of small streams and canols. In a dry, closed off area off the Thames River between the Thames Barrier remnants and a wall made out of rocks and rubble, this city is also based in the tunnels underneath. A city with several thousand persons, and even home to a few ethnic enclaves. The largest, most organised city in the Wasteland.
NOTES:
DEspite its size and importance, this needs serious expansion.

New Leningrad
(The Soviet Union was around when the bombs dropped, explaining the name.)
A Soviet cargo carrier crashed and was grounded when the bombs hit. Establishing a neo-Communist society, the survivors were initially hostile towards other refugees, only allowing Soviet nationals in. Eventually, they opened up, but still, most non-Russians live in poverty on the outer reaches of the settlement, not full citizens yet.
NOTES:
Da, Comrade. This is my favourite idea. Think the Shi, Rivet City and Vault City rolled into one, add some Lenin statues and borscht, and a recruitable Russian combat robot, you get New Leningrad.

Trafalgar Vault
In the ruins of the former Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. The British government built a few Vaults, but had no malevolent purpose, but the project was on a smaller scale and started much later. Trafalgar Vault was one of the larger ones (and one of the few that were finished and weren't test vaults) and was home to richer folk, artsy types and the like. The inhabitants recently emmerged to find most of central London gone, so have established the London-equivalent of Tenpenny Tower, a reclusive society only open to the wealthy, a few poor workers and the original inhabitants. As such, people wait outside, trying to get in.
NOTES:
Rich, with various camps scattered around outside. A distant relative of the Royal Family is the main figure in this town.

Robopolis
Only a rumour, a city of androids and robots.
NOTES:
A rumour. Problems of power, the types of robots, AI and such plague this idea tbh.

Smaller settlements and travellers exist as well. Notable smaller settlements include Fugson Town, a trading post built in the ruins of a department store, Montez, a town under heavy attack by Radscorpions, Sojourner, a town which along with the surrounding villages was looted by unauthorised slavers leaving only one little girl hiding under a bed, Oxford Street, now the main camp and hideout for the "authorised" gang of slavers, Southern Point, a trading post founded and run by a crazy old eccentric and his niece, Greenstone, a larger trading post, Agincourt Vault, home to scientists and test subjects hiding in an uncompleted, irradiated small Vault and the People's Democracy of London, a small village that claims to be the start of a new formal government for London.

I've got changes planned for the karma systems (for example, stealing small trinkets and such and giving water to water beggars will have minimal affect (outside of the individual view towards you) if you high and low karma respectively), skills (outdoorsman returns for one, and science is expanded) and a new combat system choice (you can either play it in traditional turnbased style or a revised Fallout 3 system).

Feedback and suggestions would be appreciated. I'm thinking of making a much bigger post with a lot more detail.

Better art direction and more graphics assets. Way more quests (not like in Oblivon though, some repetition but not a lot)...

No one would expect anyone to actually walk all of it, or even walk from one State to another (even though it would be made possible, that was never the point of the suggestion).

Yes it is. See above and see below.

Read my posts, I suggested several times in several phrasings that the game be designed to extrapolate the land between point A & B. This means that if you fast travel between two towns that are 50 miles apart, and get attacked 25 miles out, the game puts you half way between the two towns in a procedural location to have the fight. Once the combat ends you do whatever you want :shrug: (loot the bodies, heal up, read a book, etc...). When you're ready, you leave. most likely you will fast travel the rest of the way to where you were going, but you would have the option to walk there (or anywhere) in real time, and perhaps you may see something in the distance that you want to check out. ~However, the ability to walk anywhere in real time on a State size map is not the point (Its the side effect).

The point is that the game can drop you off of the world map onto any conceivable location you choose to visit, or have the misfortune to be ambushed at. It also means that Devs and Modders can put their custom locations anywhere, same as a modder can do in FO2. Gameplay-wise it is identical to Fallout 2 (in intent), because typically the player will explore a town or large location in depth, then leave toward the wastes (and fast travel). If they get ambushed (or find something neat like Special encounters), the game sets them down wherever they happen to be, where they can fight/ and or later investigate the area, and eventually leave... whether on foot for a while, or (as usually) use fast travel.

Same here; The wastelands shouldn't be taken lightly in this series, and should always represent a serious element of risk.

Maybe I'm lacking imagination, but I can't see why anyone would object to a Daggerfall / Original Fallouts map system with handmade locations. I'd love a Fallout 3 (or 4) where instead of getting a "you can't go that way" message a world traveling presented itself where I could head out for parts unknown and unexplored or travel to another city or place that I'd visited before.

Mega exploration, in this sense, is easily as rewarding as checking a metal box.

So if no one would do it then why is it even possible? It's just not a sound investment of development resources. It makes zero sense to devote a large part of your budget (time and money) to something that no one or very few people will experience because the things people DO experience will suffer.

Yeah, I think I see where you're going with this. I'd be rather fond of that setup myself - primarily travelling between cells through fast-travel; and spawning the player and encounter into a cellspace that makes sense for where the player was during his travels when the event triggered. It would iron out a lot of potential problems with having random fast-travel encounters into preset locations, make it easier to place new areas into the game (I know I'd have a heck of an easier time messing around with the GECK if I didn't have to completely remodel existing level geometry...) etc. Plus it'd likely help to give me the sort of experiences that I've always found the most compelling in a Fallout game (and something that honestly - though I enjoyed the game very much - I never really experienced in Fallout 3.)

I don't think it's going to work well with Bethesda's existing fanbase, however. I mean, look at how many people still feel "fast-travelling" in Fallout 3 is akin to a teleport button, or how many people dislike even things like quest compasses, etc. "Immersion" for the majority of Bethesda's fanbase seems to hinge on everything that happens to the character actually happening "in-game," with any sort of gameplay abstraction (things like time compression, etc) taking away from their experience. (And before I get yelled at, I'm just pointing out what I feel is a difference of opinion - I'm not making any sort of value judgement on it.)

A Fallout 4 where you're spending a lot of time fast-travelling, I don't see as going over very well. Good idea for a spin-off, though, I should think.

But on the other hand, it's not our problem to worry about what would make good business sense, properly allocate available resources, etc.

Ok, before I begin I'd like to say Ive never played any of the fallout games besides fallout 3, from what Ive heard the original fallout franchise is very different then fallout 3. Alot of people are asking for fallout 4 to be closer to the originals. I disagree, but i also dont want fallout 4 to be just like fallout 3 either. heres a list of suggestions

First - I loved the point of view, hud, and overall immersion factor

weapons and armor - I have to agree with alot of posters, MORE CUSTOMIZATION!!! I understand that doing a full body piece of equipment saves valuable production time, but that doesnt mean you can't attach a flash light or extra armor to a merc outfit, like your armor has a certain amount of "sockets" that can be filled with various items I.E. flashlight, extra armor, or even a trophy item from a monster. Now onto weapons, same thing with armor except there is alot more combat wise things you can attach to a weapon increasing damage, range, etc. BUT if I were developer I would take it to a next level, making the attachments add a new mechanic to the weapon I.E. a flashlight to illuminate a dark cave, A bayonet to melee enemies, a scrap grenade launcher, all this being activated by a certain button that activates the current attachment. these features alone would adds many hours of gameplay just tweaking different attachments.

world - In Oblivion the world was massive with who knows how many quests, items, monsters, and lore. Now with the fallout world having this many NPC's would be impossible but an expansion of the game world and number of quests isnt! I want bethesda to bring the scale of oblivion to fallout, not by making more npcs and more towns, but by increasing the depth and range of a quest, having the same npc give you more then one, and offering many(as in 4 to 5) ways to complete a quest. These factors will make the experience last that much longer and be more enjoyable for the player, while retaining the wasteland feeling, that civilization is barely hanging on.

thats its for now! thanks for reading, I'm going to post more in the near future

P.S. - I'm not afraid of criticism

I'd like to see changing game world, not just by the effects of the PC but on its own, an enemy moving to new locations across the map, new towns and destroying old ones, in this case quests would not be set on stone - if a certain town is destroyed those quests are no longer available, but the new town has new quests

its a work of progress in my mind




you can target thrown grenades, and you can always NOT push the vats button

after reading pretty much every post i think what gizmo and nu clear day are getting at is that the devs can drastically improve the size of the world by procedural generation of urban areas, buildings and natural elements. This is possible as long as the set pieces and varied and spread far out enough. I'm talking at least 100 set pieces or more in every configuration, this space isnt just useless, supplies and such can be found from enemies in this space, but the enemies found and the number can be more handcrafted I.E. - a gang of raiders is battling ghouls in a crumbling surburbia because the ghouls have stock piled a mass of supplies (not enough to set the player for life, keep in mind this is survival, the raiders are desperate, barely anything is still something, thus retaining the desolate wasteland atmosphere) , this eliminates the boring and repetive problem pretty much. but beth can still implement many handcrafted locations as well,

I figure, if we did have vehicles, it would be something like Free Roam in the game Fuel.

What if we could use the Xbox Live camera to map our faces unto our characters if we desired, similar to RSV2?

Then I would be a little unnerved. >.>
DOPPELGANGER! :0

Just a skills list I came up with. Tell me whattcha think.

Light Armour- Your ability to use, maintain and repair/modify light weight armours such as Leather Armour, Recon Armour and any general clothing with a DR rating.
Heavy Armour- Your ability to use, maintain and repair/modify heavy armours such as Metal Armour, Combat armour and any Power Armour.
SideArms- Your ability to use, maintain, create and repair/modify small firearms such as the 10mm Pistol, the SMG and the Sawn off Shotgun.
Rifles- Your ability to use, maintain, create and repair/modify rifles and shotguns such as the Hunting Rifle, the Assault Rifle and the Combat Shotgun.
Sniper- Your ability to sight accurately with any scope (taking into account your skill with said scoped weapon as well) and how much of an accuracy bonus you receive with a scope in VATS.
Machine Guns- Your ability to use, maintain, create and repair/modify machine guns such as the SAW, the M60 and any Minigun.
Launchers- Your ability to use, maintain, create and repair/modify propellant weapons such as the Grenade Launcher, the Rocket Launcher and the Flamer.
Energy Weapons- Your ability to use, maintain, create and repair/modify energy based weaponry such as Laser weapons, Plasma weapons and Tesla weapons.
Melee- Your ability to use, maintain, create and repair/modify close melee weapons such as the Baseball Bat, the Combat Knife and just about any piece of junk you can think of.
Unarmed- Your hand-to-hand fighting ability. Also affects how well you can use "unarmed" weapons such as the Brass Knuckles and the Power Fist.
Traps- Your ability to disarm and create/set traps both explosive or not. Also includes the breaching of doors and containers via explosive charges.
Thrown- Your ability to throw weapons such as grenades, rocks and spears accurately.
Stealth- Your ability to hide (in cupboards and large containers) effectively, pass by enemies and allies undetected, steal items, and pickpocket unsuspecting NPCs.
Science- Your ability to hack/interact with computers and robots, use/create gadgets and understand techno babble (or any scientific language).
Outdoorsman- Your ability to collect (and cook) meats/pelts from hunted creatures, collect plants and foods from the wasteland, and ration food/items more effectively during fast travel. Also affects how fast and far you can travel using auto travel.
Deception- Your ability to lie or twist the truth in conversation and effectively disguise yourself from enemies and friends with clothing and armour.
Speech- Your chance of any dialogue choice working to the intended effect (except for lying) within conversations. This affects all of your speech options including skill based ones (e.g. [Science]).
Barter- Affects the prices you can get for selling and buying items, how well you can haggle prices, and who will buy your items.
Medical- Your ability to use/create meds, medicate the wounds of both yourself and your allies, and diagnose problems correctly on both yourself and your allies such as wounds, addictions and illnesses.